Jimmy Garoppolo, QB, Los Angeles Rams

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by darockzillahitman:
LOL. The Patriots' offense is the single most gimmicky thing in the history of organized sports. There's a reason they can plug any journeyman scrub in at slot receiver and feed him 120 catches per season. It's a spread underneath passing game with run-and-shoot principles, before they bring it in and go 2 tight end sets and power run.

Nobody else is running anything like it. If Jimmy expects things to work the way they did there, where Bill took the least talented roster in the NFL and went 17-2 and won a SB with it, he's in for a world of hurt.

I seriously suggest people take a look at last year's Patriots SB winner. Outside of Tom Brady, there is not a guy who was on their active roster last year here who could start for any other team in the NFL. Not even here. Remember, Gronkowski was on IR (and even he would have nowhere near the success he has had with them on another team).

Show me one article, one coach/player testimony, that indicates it's a simple offense. I will go 2 for 1 with you. You show me one article, I'll show you two, with actual testimony, that it's a complicated offense. I'll start:

https://www.si.com/nfl/2016/01/22/tom-brady-patriots-charlie-weis-option-routes
"I've played in a lot of different offenses," says QB Brian Hoyer, who after starting his career in New England landed this season with Houston. "[The Patriots'] system is a hybrid of all of them. It's very intricate, but if you have guys who can do it well, it's the best.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2012/06/08/why-chad-ochocinco-failed-with-patriots/woLHEZMcbQsvowtsayTgVL/story.html
"At times, there are four decisions that a receiver needs to make after the snap the way our offense is,'' O'Shea said. "That's one of the advantages of our offense, that we give players a lot of flexibility within the system to take what the defense gives us. And that's definitely something that's unique about our offense."

While you're working on that, I'll go two more. So you show me two now since I've shown you four. Your best bet right now is to either log off, or just go to another thread as if you never read this.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000833868/article/dwayne-allen-extremely-hard-to-learn-pats-offense
Dwayne Allen spent his first five seasons catching passes from Andrew Luck in Indianapolis. Now he's snatching them from Tom Brady in New England. The transition to the new offense hasn't exactly gone smoothly. Allen admitted the Patriots' offense is difficult to pick up quickly.
"It is extremely hard," Allen said, via the Boston Herald. "I'm not going to sugarcoat it."
((Allen hasn't done jack since becoming a Patriot))

From the thrower of deflated balls himself:
http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/09/nfl-bill-belichick-tom-brady-patriots-saints-chiefs-playbook
"I would say there's a pretty core group of plays that you have, but we have, I don't know the numbers, but there's over the course a season, pass plays, there's probably anywhere from 500 to 1,000 that are designed and you'll probably call 500 to 600 of them, and there will be repeats in that," Brady told WEEI. "There's definitely repeats. We change quite a bit week to week. That's why you need really smart players on our offense to be able to adapt to the changes we make based on the matchups that we see, or the coverages that we're going to face, or how the team has played us in the past.

Originally posted by NinerGM:
Why would you put him being Tomlinson-Kil(QB)gore and Fu(cksup)co?

Cause we ain't got no one else.

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Thank you!

Kyle Shanahan on Jimmy Garoppolo: "I can't promise that he'll play this year."

Why would you put him being Tomlinson-Kil(QB)gore and Fu(cksup)co?

He'll take most snaps from shotgun , plus with his quick release he'll be way better off than poor CJ getting assaulted out there.

Originally posted by English:

Originally posted by darockzillahitman:
LOL. The Patriots' offense is the single most gimmicky thing in the history of organized sports. There's a reason they can plug any journeyman scrub in at slot receiver and feed him 120 catches per season. It's a spread underneath passing game with run-and-shoot principles, before they bring it in and go 2 tight end sets and power run.

Nobody else is running anything like it. If Jimmy expects things to work the way they did there, where Bill took the least talented roster in the NFL and went 17-2 and won a SB with it, he's in for a world of hurt.

I seriously suggest people take a look at last year's Patriots SB winner. Outside of Tom Brady, there is not a guy who was on their active roster last year here who could start for any other team in the NFL. Not even here. Remember, Gronkowski was on IR (and even he would have nowhere near the success he has had with them on another team).

The least talented roster in the NFL? Dude . What are you going to do when he walks away from the game in a couple years?

I'm going to chuckle when they go 1-15 with mostly the same roster he took to at least a conference championship game.

I should rephrase what I said before. They had nobody other than Brady who could hold down a starting job on any other team. Some teams get fooled into thinking some of their players could help them, only to realize they were wrong. Patrick Chung spent a year in Philadelphia. The Eagles wanted no part of him after that and he returned to Belichick land. Remember the Tully Banta-Cain experiment over here?

They take backups/journeymen and win tons of games with them based on Bill's football genius. And sure, Brady deserves some credit as well.

Originally posted by thl408:

While you're working on that, I'll go two more. So you show me two now since I've shown you four. Your best bet right now is to either log off, or just go to another thread as if you never read this.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000833868/article/dwayne-allen-extremely-hard-to-learn-pats-offense
Dwayne Allen spent his first five seasons catching passes from Andrew Luck in Indianapolis. Now he's snatching them from Tom Brady in New England. The transition to the new offense hasn't exactly gone smoothly. Allen admitted the Patriots' offense is difficult to pick up quickly.
"It is extremely hard," Allen said, via the Boston Herald. "I'm not going to sugarcoat it."
((Allen hasn't done jack since becoming a Patriot))

From the thrower of deflated balls himself:
http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/09/nfl-bill-belichick-tom-brady-patriots-saints-chiefs-playbook
"I would say there's a pretty core group of plays that you have, but we have, I don't know the numbers, but there's over the course a season, pass plays, there's probably anywhere from 500 to 1,000 that are designed and you'll probably call 500 to 600 of them, and there will be repeats in that," Brady told WEEI. "There's definitely repeats. We change quite a bit week to week. That's why you need really smart players on our offense to be able to adapt to the changes we make based on the matchups that we see, or the coverages that we're going to face, or how the team has played us in the past.

.....and then let's act like the Peyton Manning Broncos with Adam Gase as OC wasn't running an E-P either. All they did was set records for point....granted, they won a SB with Kubiak's WCO but they were also an E-P calling system when Gase was there. It is not a gimmicky system.

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by darockzillahitman:

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by darockzillahitman:
That's not even remotely what they're running. You're classifying it as something from over 30 years ago based on a freak'n tree.

You're wrong....they run an E-P. its based on naming 2 man routes and 3 man route combos. All these concepts are the same as other offenses they just call them different stuff. Over time, they've borrowed some air raid concepts and have used tempo. There's nothing gimmicky about their offense. The whole point of the E-P is to be flexible and they've done that quite well.

LOL. The Patriots' offense is the single most gimmicky thing in the history of organized sports. There's a reason they can plug any journeyman scrub in at slot receiver and feed him 120 catches per season. It's a spread underneath passing game with run-and-shoot principles, before they bring it in and go 2 tight end sets and power run.

Nobody else is running anything like it. If Jimmy expects things to work the way they did there, where Bill took the least talented roster in the NFL and went 17-2 and won a SB with it, he's in for a world of hurt.

I seriously suggest people take a look at last year's Patriots SB winner. Outside of Tom Brady, there is not a guy who was on their active roster last year here who could start for any other team in the NFL. Not even here. Remember, Gronkowski was on IR (and even he would have nowhere near the success he has had with them on another team).

Haha....but it's a Erhardt-Perkins play calling system. So, you are wrong....it's is one of the main pro systems and there's not gonna be a ton of concepts that Jimmy G hasn't seen.

Terminology doesn't mean squat. That's like how people still try to call things "West Coast Offense" when they're using mostly shotgun and 3-4 wide receiver sets. Meanwhile, Bill Walsh ran 95% of his plays out of the pro set (split backfield). 2 wide receivers. 1 tight end. 2 backs. He used shotgun once in a blue moon, which was still more often than Holmgren used it (literally never).

Originally posted by Sims19849ers:

People thought NE would regret the Chandler Jones and Jamie Collins moves LAST YEAR but NE goes on to win the Superbowl....bringing them up this season is irrelevant because the moves he made ended up working when he needed them to and ultimately resulting in a ring. Now it's a new year and time to make different moves. We will see how things turn out at the end of the season but one thing for certain, it is more likely than not that NE will be deep in the playoffs yet again...

You're talking about Bill the Coach, I am talking about Bill the GM unless you are going to argue that the Patriots actually got good value back for Jones and Collins.


Bill the Coach is still fanastic, Bill the GM is slippin.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by darockzillahitman:

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by darockzillahitman:
I think we should be awfully concerned about the fact that Belichick was willing to trade him, and for only a 2nd round pick, when he used a 2nd rounder to draft him to begin with.

Belichick does not lose on trades. He knows how to make it so that all his coaches and players would fail anywhere else. He teaches them to fail without him, and they don't realize it. He's the greatest chess player of all time.

He makes it so his players can't succeed outside the Patriots' gimmick offensive and defensive systems, and he makes it so his coaches have no idea how to implement what he does anywhere else. The man is a twisted genius. Last year's Patriots team was the least talented roster in the NFL, and he made them 17-2 and Super Bowl champions.

The NFL runs through Belichick. You have a chance to win when he decides he's going to give you a chance to win. Our only hope is that Belichick just felt bad about letting Jimmy's career go to waste backing up Brady for another 5 years. Otherwise, we're going to see Jed talking about "accountability" and how he wants to "compete to with Shuper Bowlsh" after a couple firings in another 3-4 years.

Since when is an Erhardt-Perkins offense a gimmick? In fact, it's one of the 3 main pro offenses.

That's not even remotely what they're running. You're classifying it as something from over 30 years ago based on a freak'n tree.

How do you know that's not what they are running? Yes it was created over 30 years ago, but it lives on today, just like WCO terminology, and Air Coryell terminology. But E-P is just that, a method to calling plays. Forget how they call the plays for a minute. Think more about what the plays are requiring the players to do. The Patriot's passing offense is very complicated with many route adjustments by the WRs. Nothing about it is a gimmick. I'm assuming your definition of gimmick is, "simple, easily defended, not sustainable". There are many WRs that just can't grasp it and can't function in that offense. Regarding their defense, it's a multiple defense that will run 3-4 and 4-3 in the same game. Not a gimmick.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2016/01/22/tom-brady-patriots-charlie-weis-option-routes
But what truly separates the Patriots' system is the extensive combination of receiver route adjustments, based on the defense or a defender's positioning, that all pass catchers—even running backs—have to know. Most offenses include at least a sprinkling of option routes designed, essentially, to use a defense against itself. But New England's offense is built on them.
When Brady is surrounded by talented players who know the system and can execute it—like the group the Patriots had during the bulk of their 10–0 start, with Gronkowski, Edelman, receiver Danny Amendola and running back Dion Lewismostly healthy—this offense can make sweet, unstoppable music. And when Brady doesn't have that luxury? Whoever those players are, they won't be staying around for long. "There were a couple guys in our past, he wouldn't throw the ball to them," says Weis. "You'd get pissed and say, 'Why didn't you throw to him?' He'd answer, 'I didn't trust him.'

My definition of a "gimmick" in football is when it's physically easy. When it requires little talent to succeed. When the players who succeed in it are "products of a system."

Yeah, it could be mentally tough...but that just means you get the nerdier players instead of the physically talented ones. To me, that's everything that is wrong with sports. I watch sports to see great athleticism competing against great athleticism, not everything being about some coach outthinking the other one.

When Chris Hogan succeeds and Chad Johnson fails, that system is bad for sports.

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Thank you!

Kyle Shanahan on Jimmy Garoppolo: "I can't promise that he'll play this year."

Why would you put him behind Tomlinson-Kil(QB)gore and Fu(cksup)co?

BeatHard has been hit close to 40 times in two games. 60% of the time last game alone.

If you were JG's agent, would YOU want your client risking his long term future without the security of a long term contract?

Originally posted by darockzillahitman:

Terminology doesn't mean squat. That's like how people still try to call things "West Coast Offense" when they're using mostly shotgun and 3-4 wide receiver sets. Meanwhile, Bill Walsh ran 95% of his plays out of the pro set (split backfield). 2 wide receivers. 1 tight end. 2 backs. He used shotgun once in a blue moon, which was still more often than Holmgren used it (literally never).

Haha.....offensive systems are based on concepts. Running a WCO, is not based on formation usage or personnel groupings. It based on the concepts used. So a team can run a WCO and use the shotgun.....Green Bay has been doing it for years. You can run a spot concept or drive concept out of any personnel group or formation....those concepts are the backbone of the WCO, not the formations used.

Originally posted by Sims19849ers:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Thank you!

Kyle Shanahan on Jimmy Garoppolo: "I can't promise that he'll play this year."

lol he will see enough of CJ after the Giants game, especially if he continues on completing just 52% of his passes and the offense looking awful series after series. Kyle is saying the right things though, but I highly doubt CJ is starting vs Seattle

Beathard is out of his depth.

Jimmy G will play as soon as he has the playbook down and when all the O-linemen are back.

Worst case scenario, let Beathard play from now until after the Seattle game. Let him take the punishment.

It could potentially be quite dangerous to send Jimmy G out there with a depleted O-line against Seattle's pass rush or any pass rush for that matter.

So, at the very latest I can see Jimmy G starting from the Bears game which will give him almost 5 weeks of preparation. At the same time, it will still give us 5 games to evaluate him before we decide whether to go all in and give him the big contract. That way we keep our options open. In the unlikely event if things don't work out, we can still take a top QB prospect in the draft if we need to.

Originally posted by darockzillahitman:
I'm going to chuckle when they go 1-15 with mostly the same roster he took to at least a conference championship game.

I should rephrase what I said before. They had nobody other than Brady who could hold down a starting job on any other team. Some teams get fooled into thinking some of their players could help them, only to realize they were wrong. Patrick Chung spent a year in Philadelphia. The Eagles wanted no part of him after that and he returned to Belichick land. Remember the Tully Banta-Cain experiment over here?

They take backups/journeymen and win tons of games with them based on Bill's football genius. And sure, Brady deserves some credit as well.

I think your analysis on the Pats is spot on but that doesn't mean Jimmy G won't ball here.

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by SteveYoung:

Originally posted by Niners99:

Incorrect on Fusco. PFF ranks him as the 12th best run blocking G in football this year. Overall hes ranked 25th. Not bad at all. We really just have 2 weak spots in the middle, but thats the norm in the NFL today. Were lucky to have 2 good T. Our OL, when healthy, is actually a solid group.

I agree.

Fusco has played quite well. He was good for Minnesota as well. The right side of our line is the last of our worries. I'd like Fusco back on a 2 year deal.

Kilgore and Tomlinson have been brutal. They aren't even backup level players. If I was Lynch I'd be signing Andrew Norwell away from Carolina and making him a top 3 paid guard. He is that good. Josh Garnett is apparently in the team's plans as well. I'd like him to compete with Brandon Fusco at RG.

As for center, I'd be making Baltimore's Ryan Jensen a top paid center. He is a stud. Guys like Tennessee's Brian Schwenke, Giants Weston Richburg and Jets Wesley Johnson are no better than Kilgore. Arkansas Frank Ragnow is probably the best college center but I'm not sure we want him starting.

I'd also be using one of our 3rd's on a tackle to be a backup and eventual replacement for Staley.

Beadles and Tomlinson should be cut. Kilgore and Gilliam should not be brought back.

LT- Joe Staley / rookie 3rd round
LG- Andrew Norwell / Erik Magnuson
C- Ryan Jensen
RG- Brandon Fusco / Josh Garnett
RT- Trent Brown

That
is a nice looking Oline.

Sorry guys but Fusco is terrible along with Tomlinson and Kilgore. I don't care what PFF says. 3rd down last in league conversion rate is all about our inability to win on 1st down - that is, running in this scheme. Please stop trying to call the LG-OC-RG turnstiles anything but.

I know you know this but add in Beadles as in the most awfulest class.

Originally posted by darockzillahitman:

Terminology doesn't mean squat.

Ha. Tell that to Matt Ryan.

Originally posted by Rascal:

Beathard is out of his depth.

Jimmy G will play as soon as he has the playbook down and when all the O-linemen are back.

Worst case scenario, let Beathard play from now until after the Seattle game. Let him take the punishment.

It could potentially be quite dangerous to send Jimmy G out there with a depleted O-line against Seattle's pass rush or any pass rush for that matter.

So, at the very latest I can see Jimmy G starting from the Bears game which will give him almost 5 weeks of preparation. At the same time, it will still give us 5 games to evaluate him before we decide whether to go all in and give him the big contract. That way we keep our options open. In the unlikely event if things don't work out, we can still take a top QB prospect in the draft if we need to.

Could happen.