Analysis from Seahawks Game coaches film

Originally posted by thl408:



As a reference, here's the defensive alignment on the INT. Single high safety with a press man pre-snap look:

This would have been an excellent moment for an audible to run Gore up the RT... man... that would have owned.

Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:

Originally posted by thl408:



As a reference, here's the defensive alignment on the INT. Single high safety with a press man pre-snap look:

This would have been an excellent moment for an audible to run Gore up the RT... man... that would have owned.

No question! And look at the LB looking to rush there as well...VD is off the LOS so he'd have space to make a move past him (quick out to him). Also, this alignment with McDonald and VD to the right of the OT seemed pretty common. I haven't watched the play in full but if McDonald flares out as well, that may have been a big hitter as well?

Originally posted by jonesadrian:

Originally posted by NCommand:
That was our issue since Week 2. All-or-nothing. Now, we're seeing much more chemistry between CK and Boldin, Crabtree and VD (alone). Those guys are very good at ad libbing and making a play for CK if that AR is covered (or he doesn't pull the trigger). Teams can easily key in on 1 or 2 guys...now they can't! So suddenly these ad lib plays are going for TD's and big gains like we've seen the past two games. Crabtree is the reason!

agreed, so the problem is stop making it ar1 plays. which i agree with.
no more decoys everyone has a purpose and position and he knows going into the play that these are real options based on coverage he can change who his 1st read will be before the snap based on coverage.

i.e. 1st read by play call is boldin.. goes to the line sees the coverage notices mismatch with vd.. does not change the play call but knows that based on the route that vd will be open if the coverage is read correctly. snaps it looks boldin's way as planned, he's covered as he thought, waits..tosses it to vd for the completion.

i think these are things he can do consistently if given the chance i just wish they would expand the offense so that the production can expand with it

Again, every team has plays with decoys and progression reads and 1 man designed plays. Decoy routes are part of the game. I remember a press conference with Peyton Manning talking about an INT he threw and he said, "well we were supposed to have a seam route on the play to hold the safety over but we ran the wrong route from the slot and so the safety was able to jump the outside route and make the pick".
We have those plays built into our offense for progression reads(see my analysis of AS 5th read play), It's on the QB to move through his progressions and not fixate on one guy. I'll show here a play from week 2 against Seattle where he fails in his progression



Here Seattle shows press man-1 coverage. They stick with it and keep the MLB to spy Kaep. From the snap he should see the receiver at the bottom is beat, the corner has outside leverage on an out route Boldin's getting jammed hard - he's out, The corner is playing off coverage on Vernon running the go - he's out. His two options by this point are McDonald(ideal cause McDonald has inside leverage on an inside route) or Gore on an outlet



Form this angle you can see Kaep has room to step up in the pocket, and hit McDonald coming across the middle. He should anticipate the opening in the defense as the LB on the right will flow with Gore out of the backfield. Instead you can see his eyes are glued to Boldin



You can see here how McDonald is uncovering because of his inside leverage. Yet, Kaep is still staring down Boldin and not stepping up in the pocket, he's about to get sacked. The T Davis did a good job of pushing the DE upfield but Kaep didn't climb the pocket.



you can see here how Boldin was covered, the safety was rotating away from McDonald and McDonald had room to run. Kaep get's sacked trying to run out left.

Instead of being 3rd and manageable or even 1st and 10 it's 3rd and forever.
We are seeing this get better in his game, but, it's almost identical to the type of play I first highlighted from last sunday.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by jonesadrian:

Originally posted by NCommand:
That was our issue since Week 2. All-or-nothing. Now, we're seeing much more chemistry between CK and Boldin, Crabtree and VD (alone). Those guys are very good at ad libbing and making a play for CK if that AR is covered (or he doesn't pull the trigger). Teams can easily key in on 1 or 2 guys...now they can't! So suddenly these ad lib plays are going for TD's and big gains like we've seen the past two games. Crabtree is the reason!

agreed, so the problem is stop making it ar1 plays. which i agree with.
no more decoys everyone has a purpose and position and he knows going into the play that these are real options based on coverage he can change who his 1st read will be before the snap based on coverage.

i.e. 1st read by play call is boldin.. goes to the line sees the coverage notices mismatch with vd.. does not change the play call but knows that based on the route that vd will be open if the coverage is read correctly. snaps it looks boldin's way as planned, he's covered as he thought, waits..tosses it to vd for the completion.

i think these are things he can do consistently if given the chance i just wish they would expand the offense so that the production can expand with it

You know, that's an interesting point. Most of the time, esp. if they have more "active" parts in getting the AR the ball, they aren't even LOOKING back at the QB, are on the other side of the field, walking, standing there, still blocking out a guy, etc. This passing game makes it simple for CK and receivers know their part. The next phase if incorporating more PS passing plays where CK truly has to read a coverage presnap and in-play and choose the bext option. But even with these AR routes, coaching needs to focus on the decoys...even if you are the non-AR, keep your eyes in the backfield as much as possible and be redy to break out of your role.

A lot of the decision making for whether it's AR or PS also has to do with the massive amount of preparation the staff does during the week to get to know the tendencies of the opposition. I remember seeing a snippet of an installation video from Bill Walsh where he says, "if we go in this formation on this down we know that this guy(points to the MLB) has to cover Roger[Craig] out of the backfield and that's a win for us".

So just because we're running AR plays is not a bad thing. Tons of teams run those kind of plays all the time. The Packers do it on a lot of plays; and they have Aaron Rodgers for a QB....

Originally posted by jonnydel:
Again, every team has plays with decoys and progression reads and 1 man designed plays. Decoy routes are part of the game. ...We have those plays built into our offense for progression reads (see my analysis of AS 5th read play), It's on the QB to move through his progressions and not fixate on one guy.

This is true...sometimes it's simple a crossing pattern, rub route, etc...heck, back in the day, we used to use the ref as a target on crossing routes to clear the DB from our WR. Now what you highlighted below, to me, is a true progressing read pass play. These are very rare. In fcat, I only saw 2 in the first half and both were back-to-back and incoplete to Manningham. I called these Pro-Style (PS) passing plays. They require a QB to stand back there in shotgun and ultimately, choose the best option. We almost always do 3 or 4 WR's here (and flare everyone out). Everyone is a true receiving option. What we run is more closely related to a Spread-like route (QB works left-to-right or vice versa) vs. a WCO route tree where it's high-to-low. Did we run any of these the second half?

Originally posted by jonnydel:
A lot of the decision making for whether it's AR or PS also has to do with the massive amount of preparation the staff does during the week to get to know the tendencies of the opposition. I remember seeing a snippet of an installation video from Bill Walsh where he says, "if we go in this formation on this down we know that this guy(points to the MLB) has to cover Roger[Craig] out of the backfield and that's a win for us".

So just because we're running AR plays is not a bad thing. Tons of teams run those kind of plays all the time. The Packers do it on a lot of plays; and they have Aaron Rodgers for a QB....

Agreed...the only issue is that I've watched so man passing routes over the years here that I dubbed it the Anti-WCO. In fact, if you can find one single elemnt of a true WCO route, concept, run, etc. please let us know. Myself and thl408 have been searching for quite some time!

But I do feel, the foundation for a HaRoMan passing offense (going way back to Bo Schemblacher) is nothing more than a team (AR) concept and an extension of the run game. It's grounded in their base philosophy mixed in with a few Q-formations from Ault. Why? B/c it's safe and allows them more control...we have 6 guys who calls plays for us. After a handful of games, does this coaching staff really want or expect CK to lead a PS offense?

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by jonnydel:
Again, every team has plays with decoys and progression reads and 1 man designed plays. Decoy routes are part of the game. ...We have those plays built into our offense for progression reads (see my analysis of AS 5th read play), It's on the QB to move through his progressions and not fixate on one guy.

This is true...sometimes it's simple a crossing pattern, rub route, etc...heck, back in the day, we used to use the ref as a target on crossing routes to clear the DB from our WR. Now what you highlighted below, to me, is a true progressing read pass play. These are very rare. In fcat, I only saw 2 in the first half and both were back-to-back and incoplete to Manningham. I called these Pro-Style (PS) passing plays. They require a QB to stand back there in shotgun and ultimately, choose the best option. We almost always do 3 or 4 WR's here (and flare everyone out). Everyone is a true receiving option. What we run is more closely related to a Spread-like route (QB works left-to-right or vice versa) vs. a WCO route tree where it's high-to-low. Did we run any of these the second half?

Yeah, actually the first play of the 2nd half. They ran a curl combo to the right with Davis and Boldin and Crabs and Miller run a pick slant/out combo to the left. Kaep misfired and missed Miller- it was the right read though, he had Miller out in space. In the play all the receivers turn to look for the ball.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by jonnydel:
Again, every team has plays with decoys and progression reads and 1 man designed plays. Decoy routes are part of the game. ...We have those plays built into our offense for progression reads (see my analysis of AS 5th read play), It's on the QB to move through his progressions and not fixate on one guy.

This is true...sometimes it's simple a crossing pattern, rub route, etc...heck, back in the day, we used to use the ref as a target on crossing routes to clear the DB from our WR. Now what you highlighted below, to me, is a true progressing read pass play. These are very rare. In fcat, I only saw 2 in the first half and both were back-to-back and incoplete to Manningham. I called these Pro-Style (PS) passing plays. They require a QB to stand back there in shotgun and ultimately, choose the best option. We almost always do 3 or 4 WR's here (and flare everyone out). Everyone is a true receiving option. What we run is more closely related to a Spread-like route (QB works left-to-right or vice versa) vs. a WCO route tree where it's high-to-low. Did we run any of these the second half?

Yeah, actually the first play of the 2nd half. They ran a curl combo to the right with Davis and Boldin and Crabs and Miller run a pick slant/out combo to the left. Kaep misfired and missed Miller- it was the right read though, he had Miller out in space. In the play all the receivers turn to look for the ball.

Originally posted by jonnydel:
A lot of the decision making for whether it's AR or PS also has to do with the massive amount of preparation the staff does during the week to get to know the tendencies of the opposition. I remember seeing a snippet of an installation video from Bill Walsh where he says, "if we go in this formation on this down we know that this guy(points to the MLB) has to cover Roger[Craig] out of the backfield and that's a win for us".

So just because we're running AR plays is not a bad thing. Tons of teams run those kind of plays all the time. The Packers do it on a lot of plays; and they have Aaron Rodgers for a QB....

You are entirely correct buddy, we're just getting caught in the legacy of the old discussion from Panthers/Saints time about the 1 man designated plays. A few people have gone on about Kap failing to go through progressions when those kind of plays were called, a few of us (myself included) were saying that essentially he had no progressions to make because it was a 1 man designated play and the other potential options were on decoys or blocking. Don't get too hung up on it

What has been great in these threads is someone showing a balanced view and showing Kap going through progressions and making good plays and sometimes not doing that and making a bad play.

The important thing is that in the last few games perhaps because of the return of Crabs, we've seen more demonstrations of Kap doing the right things and the trend has been positive. He is demonstrating more pocket presence, progression reading and displaying the maturation process although he's not perfect yet.

Originally posted by jonnydel:
Yeah, actually the first play of the 2nd half. They ran a curl combo to the right with Davis and Boldin and Crabs and Miller run a pick slant/out combo to the left. Kaep misfired and missed Miller- it was the right read though, he had Miller out in space. In the play all the receivers turn to look for the ball.

Yeah, the back-to-back ones in the first half almost had that feeling from Roman like, "OK CK, here you go...4 WR's, shot gun, have at it...what? Both incomplete to Manningham. Done!"

So good to see we tried again. I love them! What was the play clock on this play so I can hopefully review? I only have the NFL Replay for this one...

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by jonnydel:
A lot of the decision making for whether it's AR or PS also has to do with the massive amount of preparation the staff does during the week to get to know the tendencies of the opposition. I remember seeing a snippet of an installation video from Bill Walsh where he says, "if we go in this formation on this down we know that this guy(points to the MLB) has to cover Roger[Craig] out of the backfield and that's a win for us".

So just because we're running AR plays is not a bad thing. Tons of teams run those kind of plays all the time. The Packers do it on a lot of plays; and they have Aaron Rodgers for a QB....

Agreed...the only issue is that I've watched so man passing routes over the years here that I dubbed it the Anti-WCO. In fact, if you can find one single elemnt of a true WCO route, concept, run, etc. please let us know. Myself and thl408 have been searching for quite some time!

But I do feel, the foundation for a HaRoMan passing offense (going way back to Bo Schemblacher) is nothing more than a team (AR) concept and an extension of the run game. It's grounded in their base philosophy mixed in with a few Q-formations from Ault. Why? B/c it's safe and allows them more control...we have 6 guys who calls plays for us. After a handful of games, does this coaching staff really want or expect CK to lead a PS offense?

well that depends on what you see as a WCO pass? The WCO was full of half field reads designed to get athletes in space. If you're looking for more of that wide open passing attack I think you're looking for something more similar to the air coryell offense(the offense Mike Martz always ran) also run by the Mannings and by Tom Brady

Originally posted by NCommand:
Yeah, the back-to-back ones in the first half almost had that feeling from Roman like, "OK CK, here you go...4 WR's, shot gun, have at it...what? Both incomplete to Manningham. Done!"

So good to see we tried again. I love them! What was the play clock on this play so I can hopefully review? I only have the NFL Replay for this one...

14:55 in the 3rd quarter

Originally posted by Buchy:
You are entirely correct buddy, we're just getting caught in the legacy of the old discussion from Panthers/Saints time about the 1 man designated plays. A few people have gone on about Kap failing to go through progressions when those kind of plays were called, a few of us (myself included) were saying that essentially he had no progressions to make because it was a 1 man designated play and the other potential options were on decoys or blocking. Don't get too hung up on it

What has been great in these threads is someone showing a balanced view and showing Kap going through progressions and making good plays and sometimes not doing that and making a bad play.

The important thing is that in the last few games perhaps because of the return of Crabs, we've seen more demonstrations of Kap doing the right things and the trend has been positive. He is demonstrating more pocket presence, progression reading and displaying the maturation process although he's not perfect yet.

I agree. I think with the "full arensal" back, we'll continue to see more and more PS passing plays where more and more is going to be put on CK. The good news is, that whether it's an AR or PS play, CK has the chemistry with Boldin, VD and Crabtree to ad lib well (and are already dong it for BIG plays). Let's keep that rolling. I look forward to the "progresion" - pun intended!

Originally posted by jonnydel:
14:55 in the 3rd quarter

Damn, Replay only starts late @ 11:11 with the Hawks.

Originally posted by Buchy:

Originally posted by jonnydel:
A lot of the decision making for whether it's AR or PS also has to do with the massive amount of preparation the staff does during the week to get to know the tendencies of the opposition. I remember seeing a snippet of an installation video from Bill Walsh where he says, "if we go in this formation on this down we know that this guy(points to the MLB) has to cover Roger[Craig] out of the backfield and that's a win for us".

So just because we're running AR plays is not a bad thing. Tons of teams run those kind of plays all the time. The Packers do it on a lot of plays; and they have Aaron Rodgers for a QB....

You are entirely correct buddy, we're just getting caught in the legacy of the old discussion from Panthers/Saints time about the 1 man designated plays. A few people have gone on about Kap failing to go through progressions when those kind of plays were called, a few of us (myself included) were saying that essentially he had no progressions to make because it was a 1 man designated play and the other potential options were on decoys or blocking. Don't get too hung up on it

What has been great in these threads is someone showing a balanced view and showing Kap going through progressions and making good plays and sometimes not doing that and making a bad play.

The important thing is that in the last few games perhaps because of the return of Crabs, we've seen more demonstrations of Kap doing the right things and the trend has been positive. He is demonstrating more pocket presence, progression reading and displaying the maturation process although he's not perfect yet.

Ok fair enough, I haven't reviewed all of the Saints or Panthers game yet. Personally, I think it's better for G-Ro and Co. to give Kaep more half field reads or one man reads. It frees him up to play ball a little more. While those wide open passing attacks look great when they work, they don't fit our identity at all. We don't have the vertical threat receivers those teams do and we're not build to go 4 and 5 receivers out. We're built to run the ball and work our PA off that. It worked last game and they won.