There are 233 users in the forums

Week 14 - 2014: Thoughts after rewatching the game...

Shop Find 49ers gear online
Originally posted by thl408:
I don't believe that he is being coached to look deep, and keep looking deep. At least not on this particular play. The progressions are built into the route combination. This play has been run by every offense in the league and by the 49ers offense a thousand times dating back to the 80s. Kap is ignoring the short route on this play.

The thing is, he's run this play many times before and he's made the correct throw. I think he's pressing and trying to do too much. As a QB, he needs to execute the throw that is built into the design of the play. If the play nets minimal yardage then that's on the play design/call. In the film room, no one on the offense is going to think Kap did something wrong if Miller catches a 3 yard pass. When Kap tries to do too much and throws up a floater, then everyone will shake their heads.

Exactly, this is day one installation stuff. This should be an absolute money type play. Kap is pressing so bad to "make plays" he is ignoring the easy WCO portions of what we actually run. This is what most of us have been clamouring for, a WCO type pass play on first down....I have no clue how this got so f**ked up.
[ Edited by Niners816 on Dec 8, 2014 at 1:08 PM ]
Originally posted by Niners816:
Originally posted by thl408:
I don't believe that he is being coached to look deep, and keep looking deep. At least not on this particular play. The progressions are built into the route combination. This play has been run by every offense in the league and by the 49ers offense a thousand times dating back to the 80s. Kap is ignoring the short route on this play.

The thing is, he's run this play many times before and he's made the correct throw. I think he's pressing and trying to do too much. As a QB, he needs to execute the throw that is built into the design of the play. If the play nets minimal yardage then that's on the play design/call. In the film room, no one on the offense is going to think Kap did something wrong if Miller catches a 3 yard pass. When Kap tries to do too much and throws up a floater, then everyone will shake their heads.

Exactly, this is day one installation stuff. This should be an absolute money type play. Kap is pressing so bad to "make plays" he is ignoring the easy WCO portions of what we actually run. This is what most of us have been clamouring for, a WCO type pass play on first down....I have no clue how this got so f**ked up.

Not to detract from the OP, but I agree as well. His mind-concept here was 1) VD corner route (primary) 2) Crabtree in single coverage on the non-concept side (turns into an ad lib play/INT) and 3) What check down?
Originally posted by Wisconsin49erfan:
Originally posted by jonesadrian:
Originally posted by SofaKing:
Totally agree with point 2. Kap deserves criticism for his poor play, but most of his critics do not understand the concepts this offense is built on. He's a single read QB because this offense handcuffs him to be one. Expecting him to go through progression reads is impossible. You cannot operate outside the parameters of the offense. There are no progressions, and this was the case with Alex as well. Only difference is that this offense is 4 years old, defenses adapted, and this philosophy has been exposed for the gimmick it is. Harbaugh is incapable of changing the offense, he's married to it, and that's why management is about to show him the door.

best post that will be in this thrread.

Marvins point #2 is pure speculation. It could be true. It could be totally wrong. And everything in between. This theory makes sense, though. If it's true, Harbaugh needs to go, and York/Baalke are right to hire their next coach.

Still sucks.


?

It isn't speculation. It was written about in length when Harbaugh was hired and all through his first season.

I remember all the hubbub about "no hot reads" when that came out. I'm not speculating...this is just stuff that's been going on for years.

There will always be a few reads after the snap and he's struggled with them at times, but the design of the offense is a HUGE problem. Defenses have adjusted.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Not to detract from the OP, but I agree as well. His mind-concept here was 1) VD corner route (primary) 2) Crabtree in single coverage on the non-concept side (turns into an ad lib play/INT) and 3) What check down?

There just has to be something else going on. Spot is an absolute gem of a concept that has been elevating comp % for 30+ years.

Either the off field noise or constant pressure from a banged up OL has really got kaps head spinning. This play worked like it was suppose to and should have been a completion to miller for a 3-4 yards and a second and medium to go.
We're in a lot of 2nd & 3rd and long....Kaep is part of the reason.
  • thl408
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 33,072
Didn't mean to show that play and derail the thread. This thread just seemed like a good spot to place it. I'll re-visit that play in the film thread and we can go at it in unison about why that play result sucked so bad.

On another note, wth happened to the pass rush?
Originally posted by thl408:
Didn't mean to show that play and derail the thread. This thread just seemed like a good spot to place it. I'll re-visit that play in the film thread and we can go at it in unison about why that play result sucked so bad.

On another note, wth happened to the pass rush?

Seriously! A lot of fans got their wish with a benched Brooks and a tad of Skuta and mostly Lynch/Aldon. And man, aside from one play, I didn't even know they were on the field. Once Culliver went down and Johnson had to move from his slot to RCB (he usually plays left), we started to fall a part. All day long to throw...
  • DeUh
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 4,006
Originally posted by thl408:
On another note, wth happened to the pass rush?


Pass Rush ?
Originally posted by thl408:
Didn't mean to show that play and derail the thread. This thread just seemed like a good spot to place it. I'll re-visit that play in the film thread and we can go at it in unison about why that play result sucked so bad.

On another note, wth happened to the pass rush?

I'm also at a loss by the lack of pass rush. Basically it made a rookie qb look like a multiple time probowler that carved us up like Peyton did.

I guess nobody told the niners this was the super bowl, because the way Oakland was dancing and pouring Gatorade on their coach they must be getting a trophy for this game.
^^^ I'm trying to remmber the last time this team played with that much passion/heart!
Originally posted by NCommand:
Seriously! A lot of fans got their wish with a benched Brooks and a tad of Skuta and mostly Lynch/Aldon. And man, aside from one play, I didn't even know they were on the field. Once Culliver went down and Johnson had to move from his slot to RCB (he usually plays left), we started to fall a part. All day long to throw...
Shouldn't happen but can happen, once every 5-10 games I would say.
Originally posted by NCommand:
^^^ I'm trying to remmber the last time this team played with that much passion/heart!

I think complacency has finally set in and due to injuries we no longer have the raw talent across the boad to make up for it. It's just mind-numbing that a team with everything to play for lost to the worst pro football team on the planet. I mean, what the f**k... It's the God damn 1 win raiders a half an hour away. You take any of the last 3 year teams and this is like a 27-10 type win.
[ Edited by Niners816 on Dec 8, 2014 at 1:59 PM ]
The OL has been horrific and, yes, that can make any QB develop happy feet and an itchy trigger. Even stranger this season is when even a fan can anticipate that the defense will bring the house on a given down, and the protection scheme is simply not there. How can that be? You'll see defenders with an unobstructed lane to the QB. It's just bizarre. Its like the play was called without taking note of down and distance or circumstances. Chaos ensues.
Originally posted by crabman82:
Originally posted by thl408:
I don't usually do this till Tuesdays, but here is the first INT. I don't need the all22 to know what's going on here. I was curious how often Kap dropped back with good time in the pocket, and no where to pull the trigger. What I found on the first play is all I think I'll need to see.

This is the Spot concept that Walsh used to abuse defenses. It has easy to see progressions built into the route combination and is a staple play in the WCO. I've seen Kap execute this play a number of times. How he could possibly f**k it up here is mind boggling. It's a 5 step drop timing throw. The progression is Corner(VD) -Curl(Boldin) -Flat(Miller). After the 5 step drop, the routes begin to break down as they become dead routes. Crabs is running a backside Curl.

OAK: cover3 with the backside CB playing man coverage on Crabs. There's a deep safety in the middle of the field that is off the screen.
Simply through defensive alignment (orange defender), VD should be red lighted pre snap. He's not going to be open on the Corner route because the orange DB has outside leverage via his positioning. That leaves the next key defender to be the blue defender, the strongside curl-flat defender.


Snapshot of the moment just before the orange defender is off the screen, there is his positioning, Sure enough, orange has outside leverage and will defeat VD's Courner route. Nothing to see here for Kap. He needs to quickly adjust his eye level to the curl-flat defender (blue). Blue is now facing the Curl-Flat concept coming at him.


If blue shades towards, Miller, then rifle it in to Boldin. If blue shades towards Boldin, then target Miller. Easy peasy. Again, it's a rhythm throw. Once the 5 step drop is completed, the routes will begin to break down. Boldin can't get any more open standing there after completing his Curl. Miller can't keep running to the flat or he'll go out of bounds. The window to the backside Curl (Crabs) is about to close. Form this picture, it looks like Kap is still waiting for the Corner route to magically become open. Boldin is well bracketed, the correct throw here is to Miller. If led properly with the pass, he may net minimal RAC.


The Spot route combination is now dead. Kap has not executed his assignment on the play. If the throw to the flat (Miller) nets 2-3 yards, so be it. Tip your hat to the defense and go play 2nd down.



miller in the flat for a 4-5 yard gain is there easy. this f**king guy smh.

What I'd like to know is the reason for Kaep's reluctancy to hit the flat when it's open, is it the system? Has he developed some kind of go for the home run mentality? Someone mentioned earlier of his ability to complete similar throws on the run as above (but in MUCH more plausible situations), and that is true, he frequently had a bailout throw he'd make just about every game. Maybe it's in his nature to just try and create even when the RIGHT play is in front of him? His ability to run certainly affects his decision-making, maybe he feels like he can run and run away from defensive linemen until something opens up. I'd hope JH would stress the dangers of this (if it weren't obvious enough), but I do believe it's in his nature to try and create more so than keep it simple. It also seems like the system does try to convert him into a dropback QB, which he isn't. He's no dummy (despite his recent play), the guy can make plays, I just wish the simplicities of playing QB (throwing the ball away, checking down, being... well the word hurts, but CONSERVATIVE). With his reckless style of play, he didn't seem to turnover the ball as much when we first were introduced to his play, but this year has been entirely different.

Listen, I understand the system plays a HUGE role in his recent downplay, and it's like some kind of programming that's to convert him into a different player instead of natural development. He seems reluctant to run, to make simple checkdowns, and is missing his throws pretty badly.

I just wish that when he's on the field, he could come to the conclusion that taking what the defense gives you isn't the worst thing in the world.
when seattle beat us in either the 42-13 game or the 29-3 game i remember carroll inferring that they were on to our stuff on O. cant remember the exact quote but i remember thinking well thats a damn shame. to know we're a year or two past that and now everyone else has caught on aswell is pretty concerning. its a tough spot when you think you're the smartest guy in the room only to find out that you're not. i dont know whats worse, not adjusting, or fooling yourself into thinking you dont have to.
Share 49ersWebzone