49ers Offensive Line

Originally posted by BOI49er:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by BOI49er:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by NCommand:
I haven't said a thing about the rankings other than I could see why they have it ranked that way this week. You and 2 others have an issue with it yet never have a thing to add about why you object to it. Odd stance esp. for units in tier 1 or 2.

If only team football were that simple in the real world. Per usual, you see no other factor in an outcome. Sad. There's so much more to football esp. here where the QB has the least passing attempts in the league.

As opposed to using one dudes ranking as the determination on whether a SB can be won or lost?

If it was all about team football you wouldn't have made your bet. You did it because you believe the O line and the O line alone will be what costs this team.

Brocks play will be the main factor. Not the only factor but the main one. Elite QB play is needed THE MOST. Elite o line play is a nice to have but not essential.

You mean subject matter experts? And proven end results after 7 straight years? Yeah, sorry if in don't pivot to you and All for best combination odds.

Nope, QB + OL in combination. That's the difference. At the time of the bet, the OL was the biggest question mark on the team and we were still learning about Brock. Nobody expected him to turn into an MVP candidate nor the OL being considered in the top five by SME's this late in the season. That's incredible. We should be celebrating that. Instead, it's just another no-argument, no POV.

History shows you need both. You can't be an elite QB if your OL is s**tting the bed. That combination is critical if you want to win a SuperBowl. That's football. But yes, Brock is the most critical piece. But make no mistake about it, the OL can undo him too, no matter how great he is. Let's hope that's not the case this year.

If no SME considered how well they would be, maybe they aren't SMEs

history shows you need a good QB and good enough OL, not the best OL

I'll just add the receivers are important. If you have a good QB, good OLine but only one or two receivers, the OLine has to pass protect longer to give the fewer recivers more time to get open (example:double moves).

Because the 49ers have so many weapons, multiple recivers are open on any given play. That helps the offensive line and the OLine stats. So as long as the 49ers OLine can give Brock a good solid 2.5 seconds, with his multiple offensive weapons - he's good. On another team, same OLine, and only one or two recivers, I'm betting not so good.

So the OLine (I still think) is still a couple of steps below the top, but still its an impressive run blocking OLine. McCaffrey isn't a possible MVP without getting those run blocks from the left side. That makes the OLine rise higher in terms of tiers.

Yes, the Skill players are more of a priority. if we replaced all our skill players with #1 OL.. the offense wouldn't be they way it is today

Well - yes - what you get in terms of having more skill players is needing less O-line talent. *However* that is going to take up a lot of cap space. Kittle, Deebo, and CMC are probably being paid 15+ million a year each (I Defer to AB81 on this), a top tier O-line might be more cap friendly.

An OLine with two McKivitz on the outside OTs and three Banks on the inside, and Ronnie Bell, Dwelly, Mason, Ray Ray, Jauan Jennings (at the skill positions) - might be more sustainable from a cap perspective than Kittle, Deebo, Aiyuk, Juszczyk and CMC all together (for example).

top players paid in any position is going to take up cap space, but who would take a top paid OL vs a top paid skill player

Cap friendly OL that is above avg is what we have now, and you see the results of having a better team all around. You don't need the best OL

Feliciano and Pryor are being paid around 3 million each. Brunskill is about 5 million. I think the cap space of spending money on the OLine and possibly losing an offensive skill postiton star is worth the loss of talent. As an example a guy like Aiyuk, I'm thinking will get around 15 to 25 million annualy on his second contract. 25 million can pay for 4 young upcoming decent OLinemen, or two pretty good OLinemen. Point being I think if you upgrade the OLine talent, you don't need as much skill position talent. At least that's my conjecture. Give Purdy 3 seconds in the pocket, he probably can move the offense with Jauan, Dwelly and Ronnie bell.

For OT's, yes, but for interior linemen, that's more headwork and teamwork than individual skills, so I don't think Kyle is ever going to agree with that. Skill positions is individual skills.

I'm 💯% for signing Aiyuk, if we can keep him. But if he's offered 25+ million and ShanaLynch is notorious for overpaying the defensive line (read Chase Young and Randy Gregory) they just might punt on Aiyuk. In other words, Kyle might not agree, but the cap might just force his hand. I hope we CAN keep Aiyuk, but if we win the super bowl, the bottom feeder poacher teams will come out of the woodwork and will raid our coaching staff and our skill player depth. 😭

Not seeing it. It's a lot easier to get close to Chase Young or Randy Gregory performance more cheaply than it is Brandon Aiyuk.

Originally posted by Giedi:
I'm 💯% for signing Aiyuk, if we can keep him. But if he's offered 25+ million and ShanaLynch is notorious for overpaying the defensive line (read Chase Young and Randy Gregory) they just might punt on Aiyuk. In other words, Kyle might not agree, but the cap might just force his hand. I hope we CAN keep Aiyuk, but if we win the super bowl, the bottom feeder poacher teams will come out of the woodwork and will raid our coaching staff and our skill player depth. 😭

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by BOI49er:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by BOI49er:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by NCommand:
I haven't said a thing about the rankings other than I could see why they have it ranked that way this week. You and 2 others have an issue with it yet never have a thing to add about why you object to it. Odd stance esp. for units in tier 1 or 2.

If only team football were that simple in the real world. Per usual, you see no other factor in an outcome. Sad. There's so much more to football esp. here where the QB has the least passing attempts in the league.

As opposed to using one dudes ranking as the determination on whether a SB can be won or lost?

If it was all about team football you wouldn't have made your bet. You did it because you believe the O line and the O line alone will be what costs this team.

Brocks play will be the main factor. Not the only factor but the main one. Elite QB play is needed THE MOST. Elite o line play is a nice to have but not essential.

You mean subject matter experts? And proven end results after 7 straight years? Yeah, sorry if in don't pivot to you and All for best combination odds.

Nope, QB + OL in combination. That's the difference. At the time of the bet, the OL was the biggest question mark on the team and we were still learning about Brock. Nobody expected him to turn into an MVP candidate nor the OL being considered in the top five by SME's this late in the season. That's incredible. We should be celebrating that. Instead, it's just another no-argument, no POV.

History shows you need both. You can't be an elite QB if your OL is s**tting the bed. That combination is critical if you want to win a SuperBowl. That's football. But yes, Brock is the most critical piece. But make no mistake about it, the OL can undo him too, no matter how great he is. Let's hope that's not the case this year.

If no SME considered how well they would be, maybe they aren't SMEs

history shows you need a good QB and good enough OL, not the best OL

I'll just add the receivers are important. If you have a good QB, good OLine but only one or two receivers, the OLine has to pass protect longer to give the fewer recivers more time to get open (example:double moves).

Because the 49ers have so many weapons, multiple recivers are open on any given play. That helps the offensive line and the OLine stats. So as long as the 49ers OLine can give Brock a good solid 2.5 seconds, with his multiple offensive weapons - he's good. On another team, same OLine, and only one or two recivers, I'm betting not so good.

So the OLine (I still think) is still a couple of steps below the top, but still its an impressive run blocking OLine. McCaffrey isn't a possible MVP without getting those run blocks from the left side. That makes the OLine rise higher in terms of tiers.

Yes, the Skill players are more of a priority. if we replaced all our skill players with #1 OL.. the offense wouldn't be they way it is today

Well - yes - what you get in terms of having more skill players is needing less O-line talent. *However* that is going to take up a lot of cap space. Kittle, Deebo, and CMC are probably being paid 15+ million a year each (I Defer to AB81 on this), a top tier O-line might be more cap friendly.

An OLine with two McKivitz on the outside OTs and three Banks on the inside, and Ronnie Bell, Dwelly, Mason, Ray Ray, Jauan Jennings (at the skill positions) - might be more sustainable from a cap perspective than Kittle, Deebo, Aiyuk, Juszczyk and CMC all together (for example).

top players paid in any position is going to take up cap space, but who would take a top paid OL vs a top paid skill player

Cap friendly OL that is above avg is what we have now, and you see the results of having a better team all around. You don't need the best OL

Feliciano and Pryor are being paid around 3 million each. Brunskill is about 5 million. I think the cap space of spending money on the OLine and possibly losing an offensive skill postiton star is worth the loss of talent. As an example a guy like Aiyuk, I'm thinking will get around 15 to 25 million annualy on his second contract. 25 million can pay for 4 young upcoming decent OLinemen, or two pretty good OLinemen. Point being I think if you upgrade the OLine talent, you don't need as much skill position talent. At least that's my conjecture. Give Purdy 3 seconds in the pocket, he probably can move the offense with Jauan, Dwelly and Ronnie bell.

For OT's, yes, but for interior linemen, that's more headwork and teamwork than individual skills, so I don't think Kyle is ever going to agree with that. Skill positions is individual skills.

I'm 💯% for signing Aiyuk, if we can keep him. But if he's offered 25+ million and ShanaLynch is notorious for overpaying the defensive line (read Chase Young and Randy Gregory) they just might punt on Aiyuk. In other words, Kyle might not agree, but the cap might just force his hand. I hope we CAN keep Aiyuk, but if we win the super bowl, the bottom feeder poacher teams will come out of the woodwork and will raid our coaching staff and our skill player depth. 😭

Not seeing it. It's a lot easier to get close to Chase Young or Randy Gregory performance more cheaply than it is Brandon Aiyuk.

No way they let Aiyuk walk. Chase Young will get his bag elsewhere. He was brought in as a very cheap, half season rental.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by BOI49er:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by BOI49er:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by NCommand:
I haven't said a thing about the rankings other than I could see why they have it ranked that way this week. You and 2 others have an issue with it yet never have a thing to add about why you object to it. Odd stance esp. for units in tier 1 or 2.

If only team football were that simple in the real world. Per usual, you see no other factor in an outcome. Sad. There's so much more to football esp. here where the QB has the least passing attempts in the league.

As opposed to using one dudes ranking as the determination on whether a SB can be won or lost?

If it was all about team football you wouldn't have made your bet. You did it because you believe the O line and the O line alone will be what costs this team.

Brocks play will be the main factor. Not the only factor but the main one. Elite QB play is needed THE MOST. Elite o line play is a nice to have but not essential.

You mean subject matter experts? And proven end results after 7 straight years? Yeah, sorry if in don't pivot to you and All for best combination odds.

Nope, QB + OL in combination. That's the difference. At the time of the bet, the OL was the biggest question mark on the team and we were still learning about Brock. Nobody expected him to turn into an MVP candidate nor the OL being considered in the top five by SME's this late in the season. That's incredible. We should be celebrating that. Instead, it's just another no-argument, no POV.

History shows you need both. You can't be an elite QB if your OL is s**tting the bed. That combination is critical if you want to win a SuperBowl. That's football. But yes, Brock is the most critical piece. But make no mistake about it, the OL can undo him too, no matter how great he is. Let's hope that's not the case this year.

If no SME considered how well they would be, maybe they aren't SMEs

history shows you need a good QB and good enough OL, not the best OL

I'll just add the receivers are important. If you have a good QB, good OLine but only one or two receivers, the OLine has to pass protect longer to give the fewer recivers more time to get open (example:double moves).

Because the 49ers have so many weapons, multiple recivers are open on any given play. That helps the offensive line and the OLine stats. So as long as the 49ers OLine can give Brock a good solid 2.5 seconds, with his multiple offensive weapons - he's good. On another team, same OLine, and only one or two recivers, I'm betting not so good.

So the OLine (I still think) is still a couple of steps below the top, but still its an impressive run blocking OLine. McCaffrey isn't a possible MVP without getting those run blocks from the left side. That makes the OLine rise higher in terms of tiers.

Yes, the Skill players are more of a priority. if we replaced all our skill players with #1 OL.. the offense wouldn't be they way it is today

Well - yes - what you get in terms of having more skill players is needing less O-line talent. *However* that is going to take up a lot of cap space. Kittle, Deebo, and CMC are probably being paid 15+ million a year each (I Defer to AB81 on this), a top tier O-line might be more cap friendly.

An OLine with two McKivitz on the outside OTs and three Banks on the inside, and Ronnie Bell, Dwelly, Mason, Ray Ray, Jauan Jennings (at the skill positions) - might be more sustainable from a cap perspective than Kittle, Deebo, Aiyuk, Juszczyk and CMC all together (for example).

top players paid in any position is going to take up cap space, but who would take a top paid OL vs a top paid skill player

Cap friendly OL that is above avg is what we have now, and you see the results of having a better team all around. You don't need the best OL

Feliciano and Pryor are being paid around 3 million each. Brunskill is about 5 million. I think the cap space of spending money on the OLine and possibly losing an offensive skill postiton star is worth the loss of talent. As an example a guy like Aiyuk, I'm thinking will get around 15 to 25 million annualy on his second contract. 25 million can pay for 4 young upcoming decent OLinemen, or two pretty good OLinemen. Point being I think if you upgrade the OLine talent, you don't need as much skill position talent. At least that's my conjecture. Give Purdy 3 seconds in the pocket, he probably can move the offense with Jauan, Dwelly and Ronnie bell.

For OT's, yes, but for interior linemen, that's more headwork and teamwork than individual skills, so I don't think Kyle is ever going to agree with that. Skill positions is individual skills.

I'm 💯% for signing Aiyuk, if we can keep him. But if he's offered 25+ million and ShanaLynch is notorious for overpaying the defensive line (read Chase Young and Randy Gregory) they just might punt on Aiyuk. In other words, Kyle might not agree, but the cap might just force his hand. I hope we CAN keep Aiyuk, but if we win the super bowl, the bottom feeder poacher teams will come out of the woodwork and will raid our coaching staff and our skill player depth. 😭

Not seeing it. It's a lot easier to get close to Chase Young or Randy Gregory performance more cheaply than it is Brandon Aiyuk.

No way they let Aiyuk walk. Chase Young will get his bag elsewhere. He was brought in as a very cheap, half season rental.

Aiyuk is one guy you don't let walk for sure.

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by BOI49er:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by BOI49er:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by NCommand:
I haven't said a thing about the rankings other than I could see why they have it ranked that way this week. You and 2 others have an issue with it yet never have a thing to add about why you object to it. Odd stance esp. for units in tier 1 or 2.

If only team football were that simple in the real world. Per usual, you see no other factor in an outcome. Sad. There's so much more to football esp. here where the QB has the least passing attempts in the league.

As opposed to using one dudes ranking as the determination on whether a SB can be won or lost?

If it was all about team football you wouldn't have made your bet. You did it because you believe the O line and the O line alone will be what costs this team.

Brocks play will be the main factor. Not the only factor but the main one. Elite QB play is needed THE MOST. Elite o line play is a nice to have but not essential.

You mean subject matter experts? And proven end results after 7 straight years? Yeah, sorry if in don't pivot to you and All for best combination odds.

Nope, QB + OL in combination. That's the difference. At the time of the bet, the OL was the biggest question mark on the team and we were still learning about Brock. Nobody expected him to turn into an MVP candidate nor the OL being considered in the top five by SME's this late in the season. That's incredible. We should be celebrating that. Instead, it's just another no-argument, no POV.

History shows you need both. You can't be an elite QB if your OL is s**tting the bed. That combination is critical if you want to win a SuperBowl. That's football. But yes, Brock is the most critical piece. But make no mistake about it, the OL can undo him too, no matter how great he is. Let's hope that's not the case this year.

If no SME considered how well they would be, maybe they aren't SMEs

history shows you need a good QB and good enough OL, not the best OL

I'll just add the receivers are important. If you have a good QB, good OLine but only one or two receivers, the OLine has to pass protect longer to give the fewer recivers more time to get open (example:double moves).

Because the 49ers have so many weapons, multiple recivers are open on any given play. That helps the offensive line and the OLine stats. So as long as the 49ers OLine can give Brock a good solid 2.5 seconds, with his multiple offensive weapons - he's good. On another team, same OLine, and only one or two recivers, I'm betting not so good.

So the OLine (I still think) is still a couple of steps below the top, but still its an impressive run blocking OLine. McCaffrey isn't a possible MVP without getting those run blocks from the left side. That makes the OLine rise higher in terms of tiers.

Yes, the Skill players are more of a priority. if we replaced all our skill players with #1 OL.. the offense wouldn't be they way it is today

Well - yes - what you get in terms of having more skill players is needing less O-line talent. *However* that is going to take up a lot of cap space. Kittle, Deebo, and CMC are probably being paid 15+ million a year each (I Defer to AB81 on this), a top tier O-line might be more cap friendly.

An OLine with two McKivitz on the outside OTs and three Banks on the inside, and Ronnie Bell, Dwelly, Mason, Ray Ray, Jauan Jennings (at the skill positions) - might be more sustainable from a cap perspective than Kittle, Deebo, Aiyuk, Juszczyk and CMC all together (for example).

top players paid in any position is going to take up cap space, but who would take a top paid OL vs a top paid skill player

Cap friendly OL that is above avg is what we have now, and you see the results of having a better team all around. You don't need the best OL

Feliciano and Pryor are being paid around 3 million each. Brunskill is about 5 million. I think the cap space of spending money on the OLine and possibly losing an offensive skill postiton star is worth the loss of talent. As an example a guy like Aiyuk, I'm thinking will get around 15 to 25 million annualy on his second contract. 25 million can pay for 4 young upcoming decent OLinemen, or two pretty good OLinemen. Point being I think if you upgrade the OLine talent, you don't need as much skill position talent. At least that's my conjecture. Give Purdy 3 seconds in the pocket, he probably can move the offense with Jauan, Dwelly and Ronnie bell.

For OT's, yes, but for interior linemen, that's more headwork and teamwork than individual skills, so I don't think Kyle is ever going to agree with that. Skill positions is individual skills.

I'm 💯% for signing Aiyuk, if we can keep him. But if he's offered 25+ million and ShanaLynch is notorious for overpaying the defensive line (read Chase Young and Randy Gregory) they just might punt on Aiyuk. In other words, Kyle might not agree, but the cap might just force his hand. I hope we CAN keep Aiyuk, but if we win the super bowl, the bottom feeder poacher teams will come out of the woodwork and will raid our coaching staff and our skill player depth. 😭

Not seeing it. It's a lot easier to get close to Chase Young or Randy Gregory performance more cheaply than it is Brandon Aiyuk.

No way they let Aiyuk walk. Chase Young will get his bag elsewhere. He was brought in as a very cheap, half season rental.

Aiyuk is one guy you don't let walk for sure.

I don't think fans realize how much Aiyuk brings to this offense. He is a stud and he is Brock's security blanket.

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by BOI49er:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by BOI49er:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by NCommand:
I haven't said a thing about the rankings other than I could see why they have it ranked that way this week. You and 2 others have an issue with it yet never have a thing to add about why you object to it. Odd stance esp. for units in tier 1 or 2.

If only team football were that simple in the real world. Per usual, you see no other factor in an outcome. Sad. There's so much more to football esp. here where the QB has the least passing attempts in the league.

As opposed to using one dudes ranking as the determination on whether a SB can be won or lost?

If it was all about team football you wouldn't have made your bet. You did it because you believe the O line and the O line alone will be what costs this team.

Brocks play will be the main factor. Not the only factor but the main one. Elite QB play is needed THE MOST. Elite o line play is a nice to have but not essential.

You mean subject matter experts? And proven end results after 7 straight years? Yeah, sorry if in don't pivot to you and All for best combination odds.

Nope, QB + OL in combination. That's the difference. At the time of the bet, the OL was the biggest question mark on the team and we were still learning about Brock. Nobody expected him to turn into an MVP candidate nor the OL being considered in the top five by SME's this late in the season. That's incredible. We should be celebrating that. Instead, it's just another no-argument, no POV.

History shows you need both. You can't be an elite QB if your OL is s**tting the bed. That combination is critical if you want to win a SuperBowl. That's football. But yes, Brock is the most critical piece. But make no mistake about it, the OL can undo him too, no matter how great he is. Let's hope that's not the case this year.

If no SME considered how well they would be, maybe they aren't SMEs

history shows you need a good QB and good enough OL, not the best OL

I'll just add the receivers are important. If you have a good QB, good OLine but only one or two receivers, the OLine has to pass protect longer to give the fewer recivers more time to get open (example:double moves).

Because the 49ers have so many weapons, multiple recivers are open on any given play. That helps the offensive line and the OLine stats. So as long as the 49ers OLine can give Brock a good solid 2.5 seconds, with his multiple offensive weapons - he's good. On another team, same OLine, and only one or two recivers, I'm betting not so good.

So the OLine (I still think) is still a couple of steps below the top, but still its an impressive run blocking OLine. McCaffrey isn't a possible MVP without getting those run blocks from the left side. That makes the OLine rise higher in terms of tiers.

Yes, the Skill players are more of a priority. if we replaced all our skill players with #1 OL.. the offense wouldn't be they way it is today

Well - yes - what you get in terms of having more skill players is needing less O-line talent. *However* that is going to take up a lot of cap space. Kittle, Deebo, and CMC are probably being paid 15+ million a year each (I Defer to AB81 on this), a top tier O-line might be more cap friendly.

An OLine with two McKivitz on the outside OTs and three Banks on the inside, and Ronnie Bell, Dwelly, Mason, Ray Ray, Jauan Jennings (at the skill positions) - might be more sustainable from a cap perspective than Kittle, Deebo, Aiyuk, Juszczyk and CMC all together (for example).

top players paid in any position is going to take up cap space, but who would take a top paid OL vs a top paid skill player

Cap friendly OL that is above avg is what we have now, and you see the results of having a better team all around. You don't need the best OL

Feliciano and Pryor are being paid around 3 million each. Brunskill is about 5 million. I think the cap space of spending money on the OLine and possibly losing an offensive skill postiton star is worth the loss of talent. As an example a guy like Aiyuk, I'm thinking will get around 15 to 25 million annualy on his second contract. 25 million can pay for 4 young upcoming decent OLinemen, or two pretty good OLinemen. Point being I think if you upgrade the OLine talent, you don't need as much skill position talent. At least that's my conjecture. Give Purdy 3 seconds in the pocket, he probably can move the offense with Jauan, Dwelly and Ronnie bell.

For OT's, yes, but for interior linemen, that's more headwork and teamwork than individual skills, so I don't think Kyle is ever going to agree with that. Skill positions is individual skills.

I'm 💯% for signing Aiyuk, if we can keep him. But if he's offered 25+ million and ShanaLynch is notorious for overpaying the defensive line (read Chase Young and Randy Gregory) they just might punt on Aiyuk. In other words, Kyle might not agree, but the cap might just force his hand. I hope we CAN keep Aiyuk, but if we win the super bowl, the bottom feeder poacher teams will come out of the woodwork and will raid our coaching staff and our skill player depth. 😭

Not seeing it. It's a lot easier to get close to Chase Young or Randy Gregory performance more cheaply than it is Brandon Aiyuk.

No way they let Aiyuk walk. Chase Young will get his bag elsewhere. He was brought in as a very cheap, half season rental.

Aiyuk is one guy you don't let walk for sure.

I don't think fans realize how much Aiyuk brings to this offense. He is a stud and he is Brock's security blanket.

Originally posted by GoreGoreGore:
What's even more crazy that BA has been able to turn into a good deep threat as well. I was told he's not a deep threat type player and can't do that, all of a sudden he is now - christmas miracle!