49ers Offensive Line

Burford needs to play. He needs the reps

Originally posted by random49er:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by random49er:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
Fitz was legit in those 8 games in 2018. Well, except for the extremely high INT rate which was probably caused by the high pressure rate. He didn't rely much on playaction as 22.7% of his total yards came from playaction . He averaged 9.2 YPA on non playaction passes though. Which is why I am saying its legit.

2019 Tannehill relied heavily on playaction. 44.4% of his total passing yards to be exact and averaged 12.7 YPA. Non playaction he averaged 7.2 YPA.

26.5% of Brock's total yards have come from playaction. Brock is averaging 9.2 YPA on non playaction passes. He also has done this through 16 games and has faced pressure on a higher % of his dropbacks than either of those two QB's.

Dont wanna over-legitimize 8 games vs. Brock's 16 as a previous poster suggested.

My intention wasn't really to compare how well the QBs did either, tbh. Where we started at was pressure rate.

Both QBs listed had much higher pressure rates with comparable YPAs and -- get this -- Brock's time with the ball per fantasypros.com is longer!!

2.6 secs per play for Brock vs. 2.4 for Fitz,...even further enhancing how the pass protection looks in comparison.

Tannehill the next year was @ 2.7 but again....dont wanna over-emphasize guys that played fractions of a full 16.

Higher YPA correlate with being pressured more,....both in common sense and in the numbers, as they show.

That's all I was saying.

YPA isn't all created equal as there are many factors that go into that stat such as CAY/Cmp and YAC. I used playaction as a way to separate true pass sets and play design that is known for buying extra time.

The better way to evaluate pass pro imo is to use pressure rate, TTT under pressure and passer rating under pressure. If the pressure rate is high and the TTT is low it means that pass pro is not holding up very well. If the passer rating is high in this situation than the QB is overcoming poor pass pro. If the pressure rate is high and the TTT is high it means that pass pro was holding up. The passer rating in that situation would depend on the QB's ability to read the field and/or the receivers ability to get separation.

Yep yep was never evaluating or trying to evaluate pass pro tho. Was only referring to our pressure rates given that we have a passing game that thrives on big plays.

Usually,...it's big plays passing the game is going to garner more situations where the ball is held onto a little longer. No surprises there.

But yea, not at all attempting to evaluate pass pro.

If you are talking about pressure rate than you are also talking about pass pro.This is the O line thread. So it must be connected to the O line somehow.

Just because we are able to hit big passing plays at a high rate doesn't necessarily mean pass pro has been equally as good. There are many factors that go into both. More than just pressure rate and YPA. I am also not saying that pass pro hasn't held up on any of those big passing plays. It absolutely has on some occasions. But I recall many more times where Brock has had to avoid pressure, move up or out of the pocket and even hold on to the ball for the very last fraction of a second before getting blasted to make those big passing plays possible.

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by Giedi:
Well, I recall Nick Foles did pretty good in 2017. I think his OLine had something to do with it.

Nick Foles played well that playoffs. Wasn't ALL due to his O line. That isn't the equivalent of the Bengals nearly winning the SB with a bottom 10 O line at best.

it's just not equal. QB is the most important piece. To bet on the best OL no matter the QB is an idiotic concept.

Conversely, thinking a Great QB can offset a bad OLine is also a bad concept. Just losing Trent Williams deteriorated Brock's passing in the Raven's game, as an example of how just one guy on the offensive line can affect the entire passing offense. (let alone the Brock 3 game losing streak). Conversely, according to Mr. YackBros, if you give a good (but not great QB) 3+ seconds in the pocket he will toast most DB's with a good receiving WR.

Point I'm trying to make is - yes you can *try* separate OLine play from QB play - but it's *hard* to do. I am of the opinion that OLine and QB play is integrated - and I cite a lost article and some interviews with McKittrick about how *particularly* in the west coast offense - (read Short timing and precision passing games). A QB is generally throwing between 5 and 15 yards and if DLinemen throw up their hands on a 5+ yard pass (for example), they can knock it down. Best way to derail a timing and precision passing offense is a pass rush that destroys the timing of the QB and WR.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Cosmo:

Originally posted by Dirtydonedirtcheap69:
So was Banks cleared to play in that game but just didn't play?

Wondering the same thing.

Yeah, it sounded like he was cleared to play so I was surprised to see Feliciano playing for him esp. b/c that was a 2 position switch and Kyle hates that. That toe must have flared up.

Agree on the toe flaring up. Otherwise, with Banks and Feliciano playing at the same time, this offensive line plays at it's best. Thank god for the number 1 seed - that toe has a great chance of getting much better for the playoffs.

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by random49er:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by random49er:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
Fitz was legit in those 8 games in 2018. Well, except for the extremely high INT rate which was probably caused by the high pressure rate. He didn't rely much on playaction as 22.7% of his total yards came from playaction . He averaged 9.2 YPA on non playaction passes though. Which is why I am saying its legit.

2019 Tannehill relied heavily on playaction. 44.4% of his total passing yards to be exact and averaged 12.7 YPA. Non playaction he averaged 7.2 YPA.

26.5% of Brock's total yards have come from playaction. Brock is averaging 9.2 YPA on non playaction passes. He also has done this through 16 games and has faced pressure on a higher % of his dropbacks than either of those two QB's.

Dont wanna over-legitimize 8 games vs. Brock's 16 as a previous poster suggested.

My intention wasn't really to compare how well the QBs did either, tbh. Where we started at was pressure rate.

Both QBs listed had much higher pressure rates with comparable YPAs and -- get this -- Brock's time with the ball per fantasypros.com is longer!!

2.6 secs per play for Brock vs. 2.4 for Fitz,...even further enhancing how the pass protection looks in comparison.

Tannehill the next year was @ 2.7 but again....dont wanna over-emphasize guys that played fractions of a full 16.

Higher YPA correlate with being pressured more,....both in common sense and in the numbers, as they show.

That's all I was saying.

YPA isn't all created equal as there are many factors that go into that stat such as CAY/Cmp and YAC. I used playaction as a way to separate true pass sets and play design that is known for buying extra time.

The better way to evaluate pass pro imo is to use pressure rate, TTT under pressure and passer rating under pressure. If the pressure rate is high and the TTT is low it means that pass pro is not holding up very well. If the passer rating is high in this situation than the QB is overcoming poor pass pro. If the pressure rate is high and the TTT is high it means that pass pro was holding up. The passer rating in that situation would depend on the QB's ability to read the field and/or the receivers ability to get separation.

Yep yep was never evaluating or trying to evaluate pass pro tho. Was only referring to our pressure rates given that we have a passing game that thrives on big plays.

Usually,...it's big plays passing the game is going to garner more situations where the ball is held onto a little longer. No surprises there.

But yea, not at all attempting to evaluate pass pro.

If you are talking about pressure rate than you are also talking about pass pro.This is the O line thread.

No....someone else was talking about our pressure rate and I responded with my 2 cents regarding it. Did the research and what I said was backed. Nothing more.

It is the OL but that doesn't mean 3 pages later I'm somehow forced into a discussion about how to properly evaluate the OL .

Holding onto the ball longer for bigger plays all season long will eventually garner getting pressured. That goes hand in hands with your thoughts on using a collection of other things to evaluate an OL. We're saying the same thing just in different ways, lol.

I'll choose the "eye test" for properly grading how an OL is doing instead of recorded stats.

Where my point starts and ends (pressure rates vs. big play offenses), the All-Time data referenced backed it up.

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:
That's football. It's all connected.

Good luck getting that kind of line in today's game though. Can think of a couple of teams that had this over the last 5-10 years and none of them have rings.

*Check that. One did get a ring.

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:
To give him credit, he played great.

That's the problem when you rely on stats and season long ranks.

A tier 1 OL can be considerably worse than that in a given game or a stretch of games. A mediocre QB can go on a run. A bottom tier defense can put it together for a stretch… and on and on.

Personally Football is a game of matchups not Tiers. Having said that - I agree that a good offensive line can improve QB play only so far, same with a Great QB improving a rotten OLIne. Case in point Joe Montana couldn't overcome Chris Dolman dominating Bubba Paris in the 1987 playoffs - 49ers were one and done that year.

Originally posted by lamontb:
Burford needs to play. He needs the reps

I still have high hopes for him. What I like the most about him is he's such a student of the game. Mentally/technique I have no doubt he will get better. What he needs to keep improving on though is his strength. I expect a nice breakout year from him next season.

But just in case I really hope we keep Feliciano. He's also turning 32 next month so I don't expect a team out there to throw good money at him.

Would like to get him back on a 3 year 15 mil w/incentives. This will also protect us if we can't resign Banks next year.

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by random49er:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by random49er:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
Fitz was legit in those 8 games in 2018. Well, except for the extremely high INT rate which was probably caused by the high pressure rate. He didn't rely much on playaction as 22.7% of his total yards came from playaction . He averaged 9.2 YPA on non playaction passes though. Which is why I am saying its legit.

2019 Tannehill relied heavily on playaction. 44.4% of his total passing yards to be exact and averaged 12.7 YPA. Non playaction he averaged 7.2 YPA.

26.5% of Brock's total yards have come from playaction. Brock is averaging 9.2 YPA on non playaction passes. He also has done this through 16 games and has faced pressure on a higher % of his dropbacks than either of those two QB's.

Dont wanna over-legitimize 8 games vs. Brock's 16 as a previous poster suggested.

My intention wasn't really to compare how well the QBs did either, tbh. Where we started at was pressure rate.

Both QBs listed had much higher pressure rates with comparable YPAs and -- get this -- Brock's time with the ball per fantasypros.com is longer!!

2.6 secs per play for Brock vs. 2.4 for Fitz,...even further enhancing how the pass protection looks in comparison.

Tannehill the next year was @ 2.7 but again....dont wanna over-emphasize guys that played fractions of a full 16.

Higher YPA correlate with being pressured more,....both in common sense and in the numbers, as they show.

That's all I was saying.

YPA isn't all created equal as there are many factors that go into that stat such as CAY/Cmp and YAC. I used playaction as a way to separate true pass sets and play design that is known for buying extra time.

The better way to evaluate pass pro imo is to use pressure rate, TTT under pressure and passer rating under pressure. If the pressure rate is high and the TTT is low it means that pass pro is not holding up very well. If the passer rating is high in this situation than the QB is overcoming poor pass pro. If the pressure rate is high and the TTT is high it means that pass pro was holding up. The passer rating in that situation would depend on the QB's ability to read the field and/or the receivers ability to get separation.

Yep yep was never evaluating or trying to evaluate pass pro tho. Was only referring to our pressure rates given that we have a passing game that thrives on big plays.

Usually,...it's big plays passing the game is going to garner more situations where the ball is held onto a little longer. No surprises there.

But yea, not at all attempting to evaluate pass pro.

If you are talking about pressure rate than you are also talking about pass pro.This is the O line thread. So it must be connected to the O line somehow.

Just because we are able to hit big passing plays at a high rate doesn't necessarily mean pass pro has been equally as good. There are many factors that go into both. More than just pressure rate and YPA. I am also not saying that pass pro hasn't held up on any of those big passing plays. It absolutely has on some occasions. But I recall many more times where Brock has had to avoid pressure, move up or out of the pocket and even hold on to the ball for the very last fraction of a second before getting blasted to make those big passing plays possible.

Refreshing posts, indeed.

Originally posted by GoreGoreGore:

Originally posted by lamontb:
Burford needs to play. He needs the reps

I still have high hopes for him. What I like the most about him is he's such a student of the game. Mentally/technique I have no doubt he will get better. What he needs to keep improving on though is his strength. I expect a nice breakout year from him next season.

But just in case I really hope we keep Feliciano. He's also turning 32 next month so I don't expect a team out there to throw good money at him.

Would like to get him back on a 3 year 15 mil w/incentives. This will also protect us if we can't resign Banks next year.

Agreed. Mentally and consistency has been his biggest struggles to me but that doesn't mean he doesn't have the acumen to get there. He might just need more time and like you noted, refine his NFL body more. But he's got the physicality and a nasty streak. If he could put it all together, he's got everything you need to take off in this system. Next year might be it. I wouldn't bank on it and just give him the job like Foerster has been known to do. Make him earn it against another talented player. Win-win.

Originally posted by Giedi:
Conversely, thinking a Great QB can offset a bad OLine is also a bad concept. Just losing Trent Williams deteriorated Brock's passing in the Raven's game, as an example of how just one guy on the offensive line can affect the entire passing offense. (let alone the Brock 3 game losing streak). Conversely, according to Mr. YackBros, if you give a good (but not great QB) 3+ seconds in the pocket he will toast most DB's with a good receiving WR.

Point I'm trying to make is - yes you can *try* separate OLine play from QB play - but it's *hard* to do. I am of the opinion that OLine and QB play is integrated - and I cite a lost article and some interviews with McKittrick about how *particularly* in the west coast offense - (read Short timing and precision passing games). A QB is generally throwing between 5 and 15 yards and if DLinemen throw up their hands on a 5+ yard pass (for example), they can knock it down. Best way to derail a timing and precision passing offense is a pass rush that destroys the timing of the QB and WR.

No one has advocated having a bad one. Just don't need an elite one. Elite QB however is essential.

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by Giedi:
Conversely, thinking a Great QB can offset a bad OLine is also a bad concept. Just losing Trent Williams deteriorated Brock's passing in the Raven's game, as an example of how just one guy on the offensive line can affect the entire passing offense. (let alone the Brock 3 game losing streak). Conversely, according to Mr. YackBros, if you give a good (but not great QB) 3+ seconds in the pocket he will toast most DB's with a good receiving WR.

Point I'm trying to make is - yes you can *try* separate OLine play from QB play - but it's *hard* to do. I am of the opinion that OLine and QB play is integrated - and I cite a lost article and some interviews with McKittrick about how *particularly* in the west coast offense - (read Short timing and precision passing games). A QB is generally throwing between 5 and 15 yards and if DLinemen throw up their hands on a 5+ yard pass (for example), they can knock it down. Best way to derail a timing and precision passing offense is a pass rush that destroys the timing of the QB and WR.

No one has advocated having a bad one. Just don't need an elite one. Elite QB however is essential.

Well Nick Foles kind of disproved that, in a sense.

Originally posted by Giedi:
Well Nick Foles kind of disproved that, in a sense.

Qb needs to be playing very good to great unless you have all time special units around him (and perform like it at the right time).

Nick Foles wasn't elite for his career. He had two elite level games out of three in terms of production on that run. Good timing.

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:

Originally posted by Giedi:
Well Nick Foles kind of disproved that, in a sense.

Qb needs to be playing very good to great unless you have all time special units around him (and perform like it at the right time).

Nick Foles wasn't elite for his career. He had two elite level games out of three in terms of production on that run. Good timing.

Trent Dilfer is another data point.

Originally posted by Giedi:
Trent Dilfer is another data point.

A data point from 23 years ago. But yah if you have an all time elite defense you can make up for a QB.

Foles played great like Smokey said. Dude wasn't playing QB to the equivalent of allowing 9 sacks in a playoff game like the Bengals OL.

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by Giedi:
Trent Dilfer is another data point.

A data point from 23 years ago. But yah if you have an all time elite defense you can make up for a QB.

Foles played great like Smokey said. Dude wasn't playing QB to the equivalent of allowing 9 sacks in a playoff game like the Bengals OL.

I thought you said OLine can't elevate a bad QB to winning the big one. I gave you two data points *proving* that was false. I only needed one.