Colin Kaepernick Thread

Originally posted by crake49:

Originally posted by jonnydel:
but that's what it can accomplish - answering if it was playcalling, execution or what. We can't just throw out "the playcalling was horrible" just because it sounds good or say that(I've heard this a LOT) "it was obvious to anyone watching". Well, no, it's really not.

I've watched nearly every passing play the 49ers ran all last year nearly 9 times each play. What I can tell you is that almost all of our passing plays are WCO plays and we saw cover 3 zone most of the time - the question that I would like to have answered is, why we couldn't get better passing production on first down? Was the defense just playing run and trying to take away the intermediate passing lanes? Were they focused on removing Boldin on first down? What was the problem? Was it in the design of the plays?(I highly doubt from what I recall), was it in CK's footwork? Was it in his progression reading? Was it in receivers running crisp routes? Was it in the timing of the routes and QB? Was it in the types of plays called?

Each answer will lead to different solutions and possible problems. If it's footwork and progressions - that's both on coaching and player(Chryst would be included in that coaching as well) if it's play type(i.e. always calling a levels concept on 1st down) that's predictable - on the playcaller. If it's the receivers' timing being out of sync - that's on the players and WR coach.

So, if we're going to assign blame - what right do we have to assign blame ignorantly?

It's hard for me to believe someone who says he's watched every pass play nine times and then wonders about the possible reasons for lack of production, but never mentions pass protection.

Kaepernick was sacked 52 times, the most in the league. Any analysis that overlooks this doesn't have much credibility IMO. And according to PFF, Kaepernick is responsible for just 7% of those sacks. The pass protection was horrible. That's the first thing anyone should know about the Niners passing game last season. Without good protection, no scheme is going to work well.

No, that is a great point -but to question my credibility based off this statement is to show that you did not fully read my post. I was talking specifically about 1st down production and listed possible causes. The list was not intended to be all inclusive of all possible causes. Pass pro was definitely an issue. But, the question at hand was about playcalling. So, by your statement, you have affirmed HaRo's playcalling. "without good protection, no scheme is going to work well."

Originally posted by crake49:
It's hard for me to believe someone who says he's watched every pass play nine times and then wonders about the possible reasons for lack of production, but never mentions pass protection.

Kaepernick was sacked 52 times, the most in the league. Any analysis that overlooks this doesn't have much credibility IMO. And according to PFF, Kaepernick is responsible for just 7% of those sacks. The pass protection was horrible. That's the first thing anyone should know about the Niners passing game last season. Without good protection, no scheme is going to work well.

of course 49 is right,, with kilgore back, martin a year older and wiser,our gem in thomas, boone back full time, davis 100 per cent, the loss of martin , looney back, maybe a nice surprise from the guy we signed, maybe a couple more pieces added to the mix,,,,, i think it will be much much better with much better depth

Originally posted by cciowa:

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by cciowa:

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
I just remember them being in 2nd and long A LOT, 2nd and 7, 2nd and 8 was pretty normal from what I can recall. They ranked either second or third worst in the NFL in first down production, right around heavyweights like Jacksonville.

why did we always call for a pass play that got five yards when we were at third and 9
why did they line up miller up top of your tv screen
why were they in love with the fullback dive

I trust and have faith ck , the players and the new coaches learned from those mistakes and we will never see that garbage again

The bolded does make me chuckle because i've heard that so many times from different people. It's about creatively using a personnel package. If a defense ALWAYS plays you cover 3 zone when you're in a 21 personnel, why not use 21 personnel to spread the field and isolate a WR on a LB??? Isn't that playing to the predictability of the defense? Also, we averaged a high completion percentage whenever Miller was spread out wide.....

i guess you are a fan of that, sorry. to me it made no sense to line him up , play miss lloyd while you had stevie and two kids on the bench playing checkers,, s**t like that retarded the development of our two kids and as a result we still do not know what we have in those two

But, if you have a QB that, at times, struggles with his progressions and multiple targets, does it not make sense to give him a sure read and favorable matchup?

Originally posted by jonnydel:
No, that is a great point -but to question my credibility based off this statement is to show that you did not fully read my post. I was talking specifically about 1st down production and listed possible causes. The list was not intended to be all inclusive of all possible causes. Pass pro was definitely an issue. But, the question at hand was about playcalling. So, by your statement, you have affirmed HaRo's playcalling. "without good protection, no scheme is going to work well."

Good point and it was uncalled for to question your credibility - that didn't come out right. As a fan who is clearly not as sophisticated in his analysis as you obviously are, all I can say is that the Harbaugh-Roman scheme seemed predictable to me. And, it didn't seem like they were changing it a lot when it became clear at least to me that NFC West opponents knew where the ball was going half the time. Don't get me wrong here - Kaepernick is the QB and he's got to deliver - I also saw plays where he didn't seem to see the best open receiver, but I have to add that he seldom looked comfortable back there because I think the protection was so bad that he could rarely begin to be comfortable. On the other hand, he's got to be able to produce when he's not comfortable as well.

Originally posted by VinculumJuris:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Correct. Post #23 explains it a bit further. Thanks Vin!

You're welcome. Just to be clear: I still disagree with the way you are using those numbers to draw that conclusion. Based on this thread, it sounds like I'm not the only one. I just don't see much reason to argue about it because I agree with the conclusion (we were garbage on first down).

Absolutely. The end result is really the bottom line...31st or 32nd on first down production. This is a HUGE area we need to focus on for this year IMHO and I believe Baalke "gets that" and that is why he acquired Bush, he's happy Hunter is back and Torrey Smith to help stretch the field for more easy underneath routes.

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
What will it accomplish...the playcalling was horrible and they didn't know how to set up a rhythm or use the whole field

Rhythm...I've heard of teams having it...but so long ago...

...and using the whole field too...

Being an optimist I'm hoping Chryst and Logan can return the team to a higher tempo, rhythmic offense.

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
What will it accomplish...the playcalling was horrible and they didn't know how to set up a rhythm or use the whole field

Rhythm...I've heard of teams having it...but so long ago...

...and using the whole field too...

Being an optimist I'm hoping Chryst and Logan can return the team to a higher tempo, rhythmic offense.

This is where I didn't know if roman was the problem or kap was the problem. For two years in a row, we started the season trying to use a more open offense and it didn't work. By game three or four we were back to pounding the ground game regardless of what the defense was doing. The more open passing game never worked on any type of consistent basis with kap. (excluding GB) Was kap to blame more than the routes? We will find this out sometime around September.

Originally posted by fister30:
This is where I didn't know if roman was the problem or kap was the problem. For two years in a row, we started the season trying to use a more open offense and it didn't work. By game three or four we were back to pounding the ground game regardless of what the defense was doing. The more open passing game never worked on any type of consistent basis with kap. (excluding GB) Was kap to blame more than the routes? We will find this out sometime around September.

I don't know about that. If you remember, they started out with a spread type thing against the Cards in Arizona and when they did that, the offense just moved up and down the field. They got away from it for some reason - I kept thinking, 'hey, it worked; why aren't you staying with it.'

Originally posted by jonnydel:
But, if you have a QB that, at times, struggles with his progressions and multiple targets, does it not make sense to give him a sure read and favorable matchup?

it makes no sense not to develop and play young wide outs. if you had five seconds to throw due to a poor line you would struggle to. thank god last year is over, thank god ck worked in the off season, thank god we replaced people with better people , thank god we have more, wiser, smarter and healthy options on the o line, thank god we signed reggie as a sign we will actually have a different philosophy in the pass game. and yes, thank god we have different coaches bringing new ideas and energy to ck and the entire team.

Several things:

Thl, your study of this is just mind blowing. No way of knowing how much time you have put into your presentations and comments. I agree with NC, whether it was a bit overdone or not , we absolutely sucked on 1st down. Whether it was 2nd and 9.7 or 2nd and 8 or 12, the result is the same....Grossly inadequate. I do like your reasoning for getting the numbers correct , but good Lord, seeing if it was Kap's poor read, Kap taking off, bad or no OL protection, poor play design, failure to adjust to the defensive front shown, etc, all has to be factored in when trying to find out how and WHY to get better. Obviously, many if not most of us think play design or play call were the culprits, ie HaRo, which is great, because neither can uck-Fay it up any more. Whether Kap or the OL were more responsible....that sure sounds like weeks of film review. I wonder if our new HC and OC will spend as much time as you....sure hope so and I hope they make your work look tiny. But that is just my hope.

Re: OL passblocking, you hear it all the time from the retired pro linemen on TV, (as well as others) that coming out of college, everyone who is an up and coming OL starter knows how to run block. What they don't know is how to passblock, and I would argue that was us last few yrs. Great run blockers but shiddy pass blockers. As Thl noted, that could be major part of the problem with 1st down play failures. Bad or inadequate passblocking. Now maybe kap didn't get on his receivers early enough, but to me, the play calls that killed us began with the first play in SEA stadium, a game we thot we had a shot at. Ist play? 18 yarder , 7 stepper INComplete. 2nd play, 7 stepper as I recall, INC. 3rd play was a "I give up- white flag" Gore for 4. Three and out and that was it . SEA rolled right over us and I would make the case we threw it away based on those first 3 goofy playcalls. There was plenty more where that came from.

But sometimes....ok, many times....it was obvious SEA was in a blitz pak and HaRo had kap lined up for a 7-9 stepper. ALL FAILED. That one is pretty dam simple. Failure of the play caller. And then, to add to the misery, HaRo stayed with the medium to long range passes, virtually all INC. No question in my mind the offending agent here...harbaw and his sidekick, no plan ro-man. Cripes it was like they bet money on SEA and wanted to see us fail. Play calling can factor out poor pass blocking if the play gets gone quick. And that was something HaRo never, ever figured out or saw. Why I don't know but I would bet it was because that was the way Jimbo had done it when he was QB, several decades ago. So, if we have poor passblocking, we shouldn't see anything but 1-3 steppers and everyone should be looking for the ball the moment they leave the LOS. Ok , sure, that is WCO at its best. But we lost many a game last yr with bad passblocking married to really poor play calling.(*long developing passes, or 7 steppers or greater)

I will bet if JT sees our OL can't handle the SEA passrush, he goes to quick hitters until they back off. Why? Because it was so dam obvious. And that is why I feel good about this yr with way less talent than last yr. We got rid of the coaching staff that couldn't and got new blood, with lots of experience up and down the O and D in asst coaches. Last yr we got a big FAIL for coaching. This yr, less talent et al, we are bound to have better play calling...just based on the 2 guys that were Peter principled up....ARE GONE.

Originally posted by crake49:

Originally posted by fister30:
This is where I didn't know if roman was the problem or kap was the problem. For two years in a row, we started the season trying to use a more open offense and it didn't work. By game three or four we were back to pounding the ground game regardless of what the defense was doing. The more open passing game never worked on any type of consistent basis with kap. (excluding GB) Was kap to blame more than the routes? We will find this out sometime around September.

I don't know about that. If you remember, they started out with a spread type thing against the Cards in Arizona and when they did that, the offense just moved up and down the field. They got away from it for some reason - I kept thinking, 'hey, it worked; why aren't you staying with it.'

that is because the former oc with enabling from the former head coach, ALWAYS ran away from things when they were working, You know that as well as I do and all i can say is thank god that is over. i would like to think the new coach and coaches are of the mindset that when something is working you use it , till it gets stopped and then you adjust at half time,,, which as we know is a whole other sad story last year with the previous regime. oh and i have zero time for anyone trying to humanize, defend, cover, whatever for the former "oc"

Originally posted by thl408:
Naw I'm not doing a breakdown on all 1st down plays. I did that for the NYG game and it was tedious.
http://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/niners/180298-giants-coaches-film-analysis/page25/#post365


No arguments here that 2nd and 8.5 is bad, but it's not going backwards to set up 2nd & 12. NC, I don't want to bust your balls any further, but like I said, you are a respected poster and when you put out stats, many will take it as truth. A stat such as the one you put forth, the way you worded it, would set some sort of record for offensive ineptness. The HaRo offense doesn't need our help to look worse.

No worries at all. It sparked a good open discussion and fortunately, the end result is something we all desire as well...better production on first downs going forward.

Whether it was a player (5 yard penalty), OL (gave up an immediate sack), CK (hesitating, not hitting his read), philosophy (run to set up the PA pass vs. pass to set up the run), scheme (predictability on first down d/t obvious scouted tendencies or inability acknowledge poor OL and didn't call quick-hitters instead or poor rhythm by staying with what doesn't work or going against what was and poor situational awareness) or coaching (not teaching CK to hit check downs, b/c they WERE there often, or poor film work and analysis, meaning the coaches just never saw the issue and addressed it properly or pure ineptitude), it's clearly, to me, there was a combination of a number of issues that ended in one collective big-time fail!

the bottom line is that always being in second and long or third and long and scoring four points a game per game in the second half of games is inexcusable and can not be defended , last year or this coming year. ever. i want to say,, "being in a situation where the defense knows what we are going to do before we do it, is also inexcusable," but i will refrain for the sake of repeating myself in this regards over the last several months

Originally posted by cciowa:

Originally posted by crake49:

Originally posted by fister30:
This is where I didn't know if roman was the problem or kap was the problem. For two years in a row, we started the season trying to use a more open offense and it didn't work. By game three or four we were back to pounding the ground game regardless of what the defense was doing. The more open passing game never worked on any type of consistent basis with kap. (excluding GB) Was kap to blame more than the routes? We will find this out sometime around September.

I don't know about that. If you remember, they started out with a spread type thing against the Cards in Arizona and when they did that, the offense just moved up and down the field. They got away from it for some reason - I kept thinking, 'hey, it worked; why aren't you staying with it.'

that is because the former oc with enabling from the former head coach, ALWAYS ran away from things when they were working, You know that as well as I do and all i can say is thank god that is over. i would like to think the new coach and coaches are of the mindset that when something is working you use it , till it gets stopped and then you adjust at half time,,, which as we know is a whole other sad story last year with the previous regime. oh and i have zero time for anyone trying to humanize, defend, cover, whatever for the former "oc"

I do believe that if we can successfully transition to more of a ZBS, that it will help with running more of a spread offense. If you look at most of the spread teams, most of the run plays they run are ZB - not power. So, it was, as I've said in other threads, it was like miscongruity(yup, just made up a word) in the offense as far as personnel for the type of system we could run. Our O-lineman and bell-cow back were much more suited to a power running system, whereas our receivers and QB were much more suited to a spread system.

I remember after the Ari game, tons of people(mostly in the media) were questioning why we were spread out so much and wanted to point to the spread as the reason we lost. I remember after we lost to the Cards and Bears that O-lineman were complaining that we needed to, "get back to what we're good at". Which was the power run and closed sets.

As a side, I'm not trying to "defend" HaRo in this - more, it seems like there's this giant slew of hope that because HaRo is gone, suddenly our offense will change dramatically and the real problem is gone. I hope I'm wrong, but, for me, I don't have this huge slew of hope that just because Roman is gone our offense will suddenly "unlock". There were issues beyond the playcalling - what'll get me more excited about this upcoming season is hearing of those things being addressed.

^^^^ jonnydel, I've read that these days teams running a ZBS generally have better pass protection. Do you agree with that?

(and BTW, I think you meant 'discontinuity.')