Originally posted by SanDiego49er: At some point you just got to give up on the Luck dream. We won't pick #1 next year. Just not going to happen.
i will give up on the luck dream when he is playing on another team...
He will play on another team. We would have to be 2 - 14 or even worse to have a realistic chance at him. And while we are a bit bad we aren't that bad anymore in 2011. There is too much talent on this team to be that bad despite some of the holes we do have.
Originally posted by Kolohe: Even Kaepernick says hes a project:
Quote:
I’m portrayed as a little bit more of a raw athlete than quarterbacks that run an NFL-style system, but this week I really wanted to show that my physical tools, my footwork is pretty fine tuned,” said Kaepernick, who passed for 10,098 yards, threw for 82 touchdowns and rushed for another 59 scores in his four seasons. “I’m not a long-term project going into the NFL.”
Mayock seems to think so too:
Quote: "Kaepernick I think is a great project," Mayock said. "He's got mechanical issues, but he's got a big arm and someone is going to develop him."
Uh kolohe- you need read what you posted in bold. Kaep says he "does not" think he is a project. He does say he know that he is portrayed as such.
He also said in one interview, he is shooting to start asap. Like the movie top gun when Viper says-pretty arrogrant considering the company you are in...Maverick/Colin-yes sir, Viper/Harbaugh-I like that in a fighter pilot/QB...
He doesn't think hes a "Long term project", so what I got out of it, is that he thinks hes a short term maybe 1-2 years. Now I could see if he said he wasn't a project period, then of course I wouldn't have posted it.
WildBill and all the other Kaepernick hopefuls, I don't know why you guys get so worked up when people consider Kaepernick as a project. For all we know, Kaepernick might start from day 1. I won't hold my breath though, but I won't deny his talent either.
Nah, I'm not getting worked up about Colin, I do consider any QB coming into the NFL a project. Just posting the other side of the coin to those who go the other extreme and say that Gabbert should have been the pick or Stanzi or Dalton. Or that Luck is going to be the next Marino or Manning from day one. No one knows that until they step on the field. Easy to blast someone when you are not on the hot seat and don't know whats going on like who Harbaugh wanted. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, just that people having making assumptions without the facts or knowing the sidtuation.
You watch local TV news anchor Joe Moore? He said, How do you keep from falling down real hard? Don't jump to conclusions. Kaep is who JH wanted and Baalke got the QB for him. As for Luck, all I said was that we don't know how Jim will view Colin after one year with him in comparision to Luck. Also that what JH saw in him has been validated in the press conferences by JH and Baalke and the show on espn just supports what Harbaugh is saying. Not saying Kaep don't make mistakes-you should remember the local boys beat Nevada and Mana Silva caught a deflected pass for an interception. I just love playing devils advocate. against some.
Good to see someone from Hawaii playing devils advocate, especially since we've seen him play against us for so many years. That's pretty much where my reasons of Kaepernick being a project at the next level. Shoot Colt Brennan would've definitely been a project if he came out his Jr. year and he was considered a late 1st-early 2nd round pick back then. And not to show my bias or anything, but Colt Brennan in college (keywords "in college"), was a much better passer than Kaepernick, and it definitely was taking time for him to adjust to the Pro's.
But with that aside, getting back to the original topic to this thread, Yes, if Alex Smith and Kaepernick do indeed struugle next year, we MUST draft Andrew Luck.
College is college...if he played for June Jones, his numbers would be out of this world, his numbers relegated to coach aults play calling, he scored what...20 TDs on the ground? I am honest when talking about Hawaii players, he didn't have the arm and his numbers are inflated as you know because of the scheme, Kaep's was not because the pistol didn't just shoot it also tried to pistol whip you upside the head.
Anyway, yes if the two fail and Luck is there then by all means, but what if Kaep is way ahead of what Luck was in his first year and go farther than Luck. Like take one step back to take two steps foward and two steps after that, where as the other guy is one step forward, then another step forward, meaning Kaep is steps from the line while Luck is two steps. Of course we don't know until after this year and only JH will truly have that insight and his actual actions will predicate his intentions.
Kaepernicks were not??? C'mon man, that's just crazy, Kaepernick was in a zone read offense that didn't have progressions. It was pretty much one-read option. Kaepernick wasn't/isn't a pocket passer, Brennan was and still had a hard time adjusting to the NFL, why would Kaepernick have a easier transition?? Why, arm-strength, if that's the case Druckenmiller should've been an All-Pro sitting behind Steve Young with a cannon for an arm and QB guru Steve Marriucci as HC.
So in the end your basically telling me, Kaepernick will have no problem whatsoever transitioning to the NFL and could start from day 1??
Most people in the football world call Kaepernick a project, but us 9er fans think hes not, but a prospect.
Prospect - Players coming from college that can be good at the next level.
Project - Player that will take time to transition while IN the NFL.
Kaep's numbers were not inflated compared to Colt because they did not throw as much as UH does and you know this. Hawaii is more shoot than run. They flood the secondary and the DB has to keep on his toes. every play, if one of them slips up then the chain keeps moving, it was like one out of the three is going to work and it normally did unless you had the athletes to cover them like Geogia did back then in the bowl game. It exposed Colt. You know it and I know it, Colt is a systems quaterback. If Kaep played for Jones his numbers would be out there and you know it-no offense to Colt, just the truth.
Kaep's offensive while not from a pro set, had a balance of running and passing. So he had to make the most of his passing. The three games that I saw of Kaep against Boise, UH and in the bowl, he went through his progressions when he had to, but he was also told to take whatever opp presents itself.
If you read my post I didn't say that he is going to be an instant success, but he is not as far behind as people think in starting, he will be much like Steve Young was or Vick was in their first year, although he will be much smarter than Vick was, Vick didn't want to listen too much. After one year of being plugged in hear and there, by the second year he will still have a lot to learn but maybe given the chance to take the reigns by JH simply because he can make things happen with his legs, and each year he'll progresss much like Young did.
So numbers can't be inflated if your working outta the Pistol running the option???
Again, this is why I think he will struggle as a passer at the next level, because hes hardly asked to. And when he does his mechanics breakdown and he becomes inconsistent, hence his game vs. Hawaii, Boise and BC. Where in those games he barely had a 60% com/pct.
But again the main point was how can one be so sure that he's further along as a passer in the NFL as rookie than other rookies?? This is why most think hes a project. Lets not forget that Vai Taua help take a lot of pressure off Kaepernick, why pass when you have a RB rushing for 20 TD's.
Kaep does what is necessary to win, he lead a comeback in a big game against Boise State. Against Hawaii he could have led them to a comeback also if his WR grabbed the ball instead letting it bounce from his hand. Plus you know Hawaii plays well against others at home because of the time difference and late start times. Against Boston he was efficient enough to win the big game.
How to tell he is further along than others? That is the million dollar question now isn't it. The things I look at is if it is from a system that inflates the QBs passing numbers like the spread. I also look at if it is a system that makes QBs look better than they are again the spread and places like any Spurrier or Urban Meyer or BYU team (from the old days). If the QB elevated the team and the team crashes after he leaves. The one thing that can't be measured is the head and heart.
As for Vai Taua, it is a question of which came first the chicken or the egg. Kaep scored 20 rushing TDs as well passed for what, 18-19?. You could say he loosened the D for Vai. Plus Kaep has Gore and more talented players surrounding him. What will make him more successful than other Rookies? His ability to extend plays and having a good rushing attack. Not to mention an offensive and QB oriented HC. Not saying he starts right away, but after a year we will see, I believe JH will keep it simple (KISS rule) like it was done for Bradford and have Kaep rely on his athletic ability and instincts and let him grow.
Like I said after a year, if anyone should know what to do if we have a chance at Luck it is Harbaugh. However, my opinion and everyone has one just like an a-hole, is that he is not as much of a project as people think and is more of a propect than given credit for. We'll see, but this damn CBA is ruining everything, even if you Manning reborn.
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Your talking about Kaepernick as an overall player, my main point of this whole argument was how he projects to the next level as a passer. Farther along than most, we'll just have to see about that, like I said, hes never had to go through his progressions and comeback to his reads. Hes never took a 3 and 5 step drop WHILE going through his progressions. There's been so many prospects to go into the NFL draft with the same skills as Kaepernick, strong arm, tall, mobile, but from what I've seen, the ones who go far in the Pro's are the ones who have that poise and utilize the weapons around him. I just don't see that in Kaepernick, nor did I see it with Alex Smith. Like I said, my opinion might not be the most popular around here, but it is what it is....my opinion.
A lot of people didn't like McNabb or Young or Doug Williams or.....all in the same vein as Kaep. You said he's never gone through his progressions, I say I have seen him go throught his from the progressions at least three, often times when it is not a planned rollout, things breakdown so he buys time, but keeps his eyes downfield and either goes to the third read or back to his first who has broken off his pattern. How can you not look at Kaep for his overall ability? That IS part of being a passer. extending the play as JH has said, while looking downfield and if the LB and DBs have their backs turned, takes it up field. This then causes the D to spy on the QB thus loosening the coverage. The same way a good running back helps sell play action pass.
Yes we will see and I also have my opinions, I b***hed tooth and nail about the Smith pick and thought he wasn't a franchise QB, not saying I am right but, I don't get the feeling with Kaep. like I did with Alex, I think he will be a McNabb or Willilams or Cunningham, Young better yet, and for a second round pick and after what we have gone through lately, that is welcome. I also didn't like Druckenmiller and Carmmzi pick. Wanted Plumber during that time period.
I have no doubt that Alex will be better, but he is still not the answer, the reason is JH and Roman will not ask him to do things they know he cannot do. Stll, I don't like Alex.
Like someone said JH will have the inside info on both if this situation should arise, we will see.
I can't seem to find any full video of him, except highlights and the Hawaii game, but you could see he clearly does not go through his progressions or reads in this video :
Quote:
• Will have to refine footwork and throwing mechanics
• Too eager to give up on a pass and take off running
• Touch, timing and accuracy are all merely average
• Takes chances and not always a great decision maker • Didn't work under center or go through progressions
Quote: Plays out of the pistol, lacks experience under center. Has not been asked to make NFL progressions and reads. Not quick to check down or hit hot read against the blitz. Misses too many short passes. Doesn't have consistent touch on the deep ball. Release is somewhat elongated and can dip down to sidearm at times.
Alex Smith looked ten times the qb once old dark moonshot singletary got fired. Even then he was a bit shaky at times but I want to see Alex with a real coach. He might be surprising especially as his arm injuries should be long gone.
Originally posted by Kolohe: Even Kaepernick says hes a project:
Quote:
I’m portrayed as a little bit more of a raw athlete than quarterbacks that run an NFL-style system, but this week I really wanted to show that my physical tools, my footwork is pretty fine tuned,” said Kaepernick, who passed for 10,098 yards, threw for 82 touchdowns and rushed for another 59 scores in his four seasons. “I’m not a long-term project going into the NFL.”
Mayock seems to think so too:
Quote: "Kaepernick I think is a great project," Mayock said. "He's got mechanical issues, but he's got a big arm and someone is going to develop him."
Uh kolohe- you need read what you posted in bold. Kaep says he "does not" think he is a project. He does say he know that he is portrayed as such.
He also said in one interview, he is shooting to start asap. Like the movie top gun when Viper says-pretty arrogrant considering the company you are in...Maverick/Colin-yes sir, Viper/Harbaugh-I like that in a fighter pilot/QB...
He doesn't think hes a "Long term project", so what I got out of it, is that he thinks hes a short term maybe 1-2 years. Now I could see if he said he wasn't a project period, then of course I wouldn't have posted it.
WildBill and all the other Kaepernick hopefuls, I don't know why you guys get so worked up when people consider Kaepernick as a project. For all we know, Kaepernick might start from day 1. I won't hold my breath though, but I won't deny his talent either.
Nah, I'm not getting worked up about Colin, I do consider any QB coming into the NFL a project. Just posting the other side of the coin to those who go the other extreme and say that Gabbert should have been the pick or Stanzi or Dalton. Or that Luck is going to be the next Marino or Manning from day one. No one knows that until they step on the field. Easy to blast someone when you are not on the hot seat and don't know whats going on like who Harbaugh wanted. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, just that people having making assumptions without the facts or knowing the sidtuation.
You watch local TV news anchor Joe Moore? He said, How do you keep from falling down real hard? Don't jump to conclusions. Kaep is who JH wanted and Baalke got the QB for him. As for Luck, all I said was that we don't know how Jim will view Colin after one year with him in comparision to Luck. Also that what JH saw in him has been validated in the press conferences by JH and Baalke and the show on espn just supports what Harbaugh is saying. Not saying Kaep don't make mistakes-you should remember the local boys beat Nevada and Mana Silva caught a deflected pass for an interception. I just love playing devils advocate. against some.
Good to see someone from Hawaii playing devils advocate, especially since we've seen him play against us for so many years. That's pretty much where my reasons of Kaepernick being a project at the next level. Shoot Colt Brennan would've definitely been a project if he came out his Jr. year and he was considered a late 1st-early 2nd round pick back then. And not to show my bias or anything, but Colt Brennan in college (keywords "in college"), was a much better passer than Kaepernick, and it definitely was taking time for him to adjust to the Pro's.
But with that aside, getting back to the original topic to this thread, Yes, if Alex Smith and Kaepernick do indeed struugle next year, we MUST draft Andrew Luck.
College is college...if he played for June Jones, his numbers would be out of this world, his numbers relegated to coach aults play calling, he scored what...20 TDs on the ground? I am honest when talking about Hawaii players, he didn't have the arm and his numbers are inflated as you know because of the scheme, Kaep's was not because the pistol didn't just shoot it also tried to pistol whip you upside the head.
Anyway, yes if the two fail and Luck is there then by all means, but what if Kaep is way ahead of what Luck was in his first year and go farther than Luck. Like take one step back to take two steps foward and two steps after that, where as the other guy is one step forward, then another step forward, meaning Kaep is steps from the line while Luck is two steps. Of course we don't know until after this year and only JH will truly have that insight and his actual actions will predicate his intentions.
Kaepernicks were not??? C'mon man, that's just crazy, Kaepernick was in a zone read offense that didn't have progressions. It was pretty much one-read option. Kaepernick wasn't/isn't a pocket passer, Brennan was and still had a hard time adjusting to the NFL, why would Kaepernick have a easier transition?? Why, arm-strength, if that's the case Druckenmiller should've been an All-Pro sitting behind Steve Young with a cannon for an arm and QB guru Steve Marriucci as HC.
So in the end your basically telling me, Kaepernick will have no problem whatsoever transitioning to the NFL and could start from day 1??
Most people in the football world call Kaepernick a project, but us 9er fans think hes not, but a prospect.
Prospect - Players coming from college that can be good at the next level.
Project - Player that will take time to transition while IN the NFL.
Kaep's numbers were not inflated compared to Colt because they did not throw as much as UH does and you know this. Hawaii is more shoot than run. They flood the secondary and the DB has to keep on his toes. every play, if one of them slips up then the chain keeps moving, it was like one out of the three is going to work and it normally did unless you had the athletes to cover them like Geogia did back then in the bowl game. It exposed Colt. You know it and I know it, Colt is a systems quaterback. If Kaep played for Jones his numbers would be out there and you know it-no offense to Colt, just the truth.
Kaep's offensive while not from a pro set, had a balance of running and passing. So he had to make the most of his passing. The three games that I saw of Kaep against Boise, UH and in the bowl, he went through his progressions when he had to, but he was also told to take whatever opp presents itself.
If you read my post I didn't say that he is going to be an instant success, but he is not as far behind as people think in starting, he will be much like Steve Young was or Vick was in their first year, although he will be much smarter than Vick was, Vick didn't want to listen too much. After one year of being plugged in hear and there, by the second year he will still have a lot to learn but maybe given the chance to take the reigns by JH simply because he can make things happen with his legs, and each year he'll progresss much like Young did.
So numbers can't be inflated if your working outta the Pistol running the option???
Again, this is why I think he will struggle as a passer at the next level, because hes hardly asked to. And when he does his mechanics breakdown and he becomes inconsistent, hence his game vs. Hawaii, Boise and BC. Where in those games he barely had a 60% com/pct.
But again the main point was how can one be so sure that he's further along as a passer in the NFL as rookie than other rookies?? This is why most think hes a project. Lets not forget that Vai Taua help take a lot of pressure off Kaepernick, why pass when you have a RB rushing for 20 TD's.
Kaep does what is necessary to win, he lead a comeback in a big game against Boise State. Against Hawaii he could have led them to a comeback also if his WR grabbed the ball instead letting it bounce from his hand. Plus you know Hawaii plays well against others at home because of the time difference and late start times. Against Boston he was efficient enough to win the big game.
How to tell he is further along than others? That is the million dollar question now isn't it. The things I look at is if it is from a system that inflates the QBs passing numbers like the spread. I also look at if it is a system that makes QBs look better than they are again the spread and places like any Spurrier or Urban Meyer or BYU team (from the old days). If the QB elevated the team and the team crashes after he leaves. The one thing that can't be measured is the head and heart.
As for Vai Taua, it is a question of which came first the chicken or the egg. Kaep scored 20 rushing TDs as well passed for what, 18-19?. You could say he loosened the D for Vai. Plus Kaep has Gore and more talented players surrounding him. What will make him more successful than other Rookies? His ability to extend plays and having a good rushing attack. Not to mention an offensive and QB oriented HC. Not saying he starts right away, but after a year we will see, I believe JH will keep it simple (KISS rule) like it was done for Bradford and have Kaep rely on his athletic ability and instincts and let him grow.
Like I said after a year, if anyone should know what to do if we have a chance at Luck it is Harbaugh. However, my opinion and everyone has one just like an a-hole, is that he is not as much of a project as people think and is more of a propect than given credit for. We'll see, but this damn CBA is ruining everything, even if you Manning reborn.
Your talking about Kaepernick as an overall player, my main point of this whole argument was how he projects to the next level as a passer. Farther along than most, we'll just have to see about that, like I said, hes never had to go through his progressions and comeback to his reads. Hes never took a 3 and 5 step drop WHILE going through his progressions. There's been so many prospects to go into the NFL draft with the same skills as Kaepernick, strong arm, tall, mobile, but from what I've seen, the ones who go far in the Pro's are the ones who have that poise and utilize the weapons around him. I just don't see that in Kaepernick, nor did I see it with Alex Smith. Like I said, my opinion might not be the most popular around here, but it is what it is....my opinion.
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A lot of people didn't like McNabb or Young or Doug Williams or.....all in the same vein as Kaep. You said he's never gone through his progressions, I say I have seen him go throught his from the progressions at least three, often times when it is not a planned rollout, things breakdown so he buys time, but keeps his eyes downfield and either goes to the third read or back to his first who has broken off his pattern. How can you not look at Kaep for his overall ability? That IS part of being a passer. extending the play as JH has said, while looking downfield and if the LB and DBs have their backs turned, takes it up field. This then causes the D to spy on the QB thus loosening the coverage. The same way a good running back helps sell play action pass.
Yes we will see and I also have my opinions, I b***hed tooth and nail about the Smith pick and thought he wasn't a franchise QB, not saying I am right but, I don't get the feeling with Kaep. like I did with Alex, I think he will be a McNabb or Willilams or Cunningham, Young better yet, and for a second round pick and after what we have gone through lately, that is welcome. I also didn't like Druckenmiller and Carmmzi pick. Wanted Plumber during that time period.
I have no doubt that Alex will be better, but he is still not the answer, the reason is JH and Roman will not ask him to do things they know he cannot do. Stll, I don't like Alex.
Like someone said JH will have the inside info on both if this situation should arise, we will see.
I can't seem to find any full video of him, except highlights and the Hawaii game, but you could see he clearly does not go through his progressions or reads in this video :
Quote:
• Will have to refine footwork and throwing mechanics
• Too eager to give up on a pass and take off running
• Touch, timing and accuracy are all merely average
• Takes chances and not always a great decision maker • Didn't work under center or go through progressions
Quote: Plays out of the pistol, lacks experience under center. Has not been asked to make NFL progressions and reads. Not quick to check down or hit hot read against the blitz. Misses too many short passes. Doesn't have consistent touch on the deep ball. Release is somewhat elongated and can dip down to sidearm at times.
kaepernick did not look like a pro qb versus hawaii
A lot of teams don't play good against Hawaii when having to travel to Hawaii to play. Some make excuse they don't like to travel to Hawaii because of the expense-so that is why they won't schedule Hawaii. But in reality the time difference makes a big difference as some have admitted-when they play it is easily 9:30-10:00 for them-when they are going to sleep normally and of course they don't like our refs.
so, hypothetically, lets say Luck has an off year where some of his previously unseen faults glaringly appear and as a result his draft stock falls. do we still draft him?
Originally posted by 9erVillian: so, hypothetically, lets say Luck has an off year where some of his previously unseen faults glaringly appear and as a result his draft stock falls. do we still draft him?
I'll leave it to Harbaugh as he has the inside floor seat on Luck having coached him and being in the area to watch him play and how Kaep is progressing.
The more pressing concern is if we end up with the number one pick, something else is seriously wrong aside from major injuries that is. Cause no way we should be in position to draft him, even if he has an off year or gets injured (see Bradford).
Originally posted by MadDog49er: I think Luck is the best QB prospect to enter the draft since Troy Aikman in 1989. Better than Bradford, Stafford, both Mannings, Vick, etc.
The best thing the Niners can do this season is to lose every single game. Luck is the real deal and the team that drafts him will be a playoff team within a very short window of time.
I do agree with an earlier poster than we could see teams intentionally tank toward the end of the year in order to draft him.
Excellent post as usual. Say Carolina tank and end up with the top pick again and won't want a qb I'd still sell the farm to move up. I've never seen a college QB with his potential in my 10 years of pating attention.
Originally posted by MadDog49er: I think Luck is the best QB prospect to enter the draft since Troy Aikman in 1989. Better than Bradford, Stafford, both Mannings, Vick, etc.
The best thing the Niners can do this season is to lose every single game. Luck is the real deal and the team that drafts him will be a playoff team within a very short window of time.
I do agree with an earlier poster than we could see teams intentionally tank toward the end of the year in order to draft him.
Excellent post as usual. Say Carolina tank and end up with the top pick again and won't want a qb I'd still sell the farm to move up. I've never seen a college QB with his potential in my 10 years of pating attention.
we could sell the farm whenever we wanted but I doubt we would. If we told a team take this years 1,2 and nexts years 1,2 we could move up from 32 to 1
