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If we got the 1st pick next year, do we take Luck even though we've got Kap?

May 11, 2011 at 12:25 AM
  • Kolohe
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Originally posted by WillistheWall:
Originally posted by ninernutt:
Originally posted by Niners99:
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It depends on how you define project then. I dont see an early 2nd round QB as a project. like another poster said, a project is someone like Nate Davis. just a stab in the dark at someone no one really wanted. Kap doesnt have nearly enough flaws to be considered a project. Harbaugh just has to tinker with his mechanics a bit, but the talent is all there.

If you base your definition of project in that criteria, then just about every draft pick is a project. nobody is a sure thing, and everyone needs some coaching to be molding into a successful NFL player. its not really fair to say "well, Kap isnt a surefire NFL star like Peyton Manning, hes just a project". i think theres a middle ground. "prospect" is more the word.

I agree with this. Klohe just said that every QB coming out is a project, then turns around and says Colin is because he is from a gimmick offense. So the correct word should be PROSPECT.

I dont see how a QB who ran a lot and played in a gimmicky pistol offense isnt a project. Just because you are talented doesnt mean you aren't a project. He is going to need to learn pro game footwork dropping back from center, the timing of the WCO, probably shorten up his delivery, work on staying in the pocket and being more of a pocket passer, learn how to read NFL defenses, and learn how to go through progressions in the WCO. Just because you're talented doesnt mean you're not a project. Project is a player who needs a lot of practice work before they can play and needs some coaching. Prospect is a player that hasn't been drafted yet and could be good. Therefor project is the correct title.

FYI plenty of talented QBs have been projects. Donovan McNabb was a project who didnt play at all in his first year, Alex SMith was a project who needed more time to learn and wasnt handled correctly and was somewhat damaged from that IMO, Aaron Rodgers was more pro ready than any of these guys and Kaepernick and he waited 3 years to start and he got better from all that practice, there have been plenty of talented QBs who were projects.

Thank You. And I think you said it much much better.

May 11, 2011 at 1:05 AM
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by WillistheWall:
Originally posted by ninernutt:
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I agree with this. Klohe just said that every QB coming out is a project, then turns around and says Colin is because he is from a gimmick offense. So the correct word should be PROSPECT.

I dont see how a QB who ran a lot and played in a gimmicky pistol offense isnt a project. Just because you are talented doesnt mean you aren't a project. He is going to need to learn pro game footwork dropping back from center, the timing of the WCO, probably shorten up his delivery, work on staying in the pocket and being more of a pocket passer, learn how to read NFL defenses, and learn how to go through progressions in the WCO. Just because you're talented doesnt mean you're not a project. Project is a player who needs a lot of practice work before they can play and needs some coaching. Prospect is a player that hasn't been drafted yet and could be good. Therefor project is the correct title.

FYI plenty of talented QBs have been projects. Donovan McNabb was a project who didnt play at all in his first year, Alex SMith was a project who needed more time to learn and wasnt handled correctly and was somewhat damaged from that IMO, Aaron Rodgers was more pro ready than any of these guys and Kaepernick and he waited 3 years to start and he got better from all that practice, there have been plenty of talented QBs who were projects.

Thank You. And I think you said it much much better.


Thanks. I dont think it will change any opinions however, but I still stand by what I said.
May 11, 2011 at 1:17 AM
  • Kolohe
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Originally posted by WillistheWall:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by WillistheWall:
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I dont see how a QB who ran a lot and played in a gimmicky pistol offense isnt a project. Just because you are talented doesnt mean you aren't a project. He is going to need to learn pro game footwork dropping back from center, the timing of the WCO, probably shorten up his delivery, work on staying in the pocket and being more of a pocket passer, learn how to read NFL defenses, and learn how to go through progressions in the WCO. Just because you're talented doesnt mean you're not a project. Project is a player who needs a lot of practice work before they can play and needs some coaching. Prospect is a player that hasn't been drafted yet and could be good. Therefor project is the correct title.

FYI plenty of talented QBs have been projects. Donovan McNabb was a project who didnt play at all in his first year, Alex SMith was a project who needed more time to learn and wasnt handled correctly and was somewhat damaged from that IMO, Aaron Rodgers was more pro ready than any of these guys and Kaepernick and he waited 3 years to start and he got better from all that practice, there have been plenty of talented QBs who were projects.

Thank You. And I think you said it much much better.


Thanks. I dont think it will change any opinions however, but I still stand by what I said.

I'm just trying to point out the double standard. People didn't want Tebow because he was coming from a gimmicky offense and had a slow release, and was considered by most a project who will take some time to develop. But now that we've drafted Kaepernick, hes not a project, but a prospect???WTF!!!
May 11, 2011 at 3:47 AM
  • mayo49
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Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by WillistheWall:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
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Thank You. And I think you said it much much better.


Thanks. I dont think it will change any opinions however, but I still stand by what I said.

I'm just trying to point out the double standard. People didn't want Tebow because he was coming from a gimmicky offense and had a slow release, and was considered by most a project who will take some time to develop. But now that we've drafted Kaepernick, hes not a project, but a prospect???WTF!!!

I think it's more appropriate to call Kap a prospect than a project. A project is makes it sound like he's got no skills.

[ Edited by mayo49 on May 11, 2011 at 07:54:27 ]
May 11, 2011 at 4:35 AM
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by WillistheWall:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
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Thank You. And I think you said it much much better.


Thanks. I dont think it will change any opinions however, but I still stand by what I said.

I'm just trying to point out the double standard. People didn't want Tebow because he was coming from a gimmicky offense and had a slow release, and was considered by most a project who will take some time to develop. But now that we've drafted Kaepernick, hes not a project, but a prospect???WTF!!!

I have to disagree with my fellow Haw'n bruddha, as far as delivery, it has already been said by Harbaugh himself that CK's delivery is fine, in fact in the ESPN special on QBs, it showed how fast from the time the target is open till the time it took CK to throw it to the hoop was the fastest. Also in that drill he had to drop back from the line of scrimmage and couldn't throw till one of the three targets lit up. His footwork was fine, his reaction and delivery and touch was fine, actually better than fine. Harbaugh also said he won't tinker w/his delivery.

If anything, he has to learn is reading the schemes of the NFL and adjusting to tighter coverages and the speed of the game, but all QBs have to even Luck.He also has to learn the nuaances of the style that Harbaugh plans to run. This is the only edge Luck may have. CK has a stronger arm and is faster, bigger and stronger than Luck physically. Remember Luck has talent but was molded by JH, so Harbaugh will know if in the overall scheme of things if CK has a higher ceiling. The only thing we don't know is football intelligence when the game is on. Does everything slow down for him or does it seem like helter skelter as it does with Alex.

Let us not forget that Lucks success is also based on the coaches setting him up to succceed by their game planning and not putting him in a bad position. For the same reason, some thought the niners might take the huskies QB, JH played and saw him enough to know that he wasn't his man. So we can't assume will take him and automatically put him ahead, they may take him but to trade him for a kings ransom.

Also one thing to think about, athletes that play two sports, especially a sport that helps with what they do in another sport almost always succeed and CK as a pitcher goes a long way to helping shape him as a QB.

In the end there are different shades of grey or prospects.
May 11, 2011 at 7:15 AM
of course we do. Obviously, if we have the first pick, neither alex or collin have done a good job. So, we take luck.

However, I highly, Highly doubt we have the first pick this year. We will at least win 5 games.

I'm setting my expectations low so anything above that will make my year..haha
May 11, 2011 at 7:29 AM
Originally posted by WildBill:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by WillistheWall:
+ Show all quotes
Thanks. I dont think it will change any opinions however, but I still stand by what I said.

I'm just trying to point out the double standard. People didn't want Tebow because he was coming from a gimmicky offense and had a slow release, and was considered by most a project who will take some time to develop. But now that we've drafted Kaepernick, hes not a project, but a prospect???WTF!!!

I have to disagree with my fellow Haw'n bruddha, as far as delivery, it has already been said by Harbaugh himself that CK's delivery is fine, in fact in the ESPN special on QBs, it showed how fast from the time the target is open till the time it took CK to throw it to the hoop was the fastest. Also in that drill he had to drop back from the line of scrimmage and couldn't throw till one of the three targets lit up. His footwork was fine, his reaction and delivery and touch was fine, actually better than fine. Harbaugh also said he won't tinker w/his delivery.

If anything, he has to learn is reading the schemes of the NFL and adjusting to tighter coverages and the speed of the game, but all QBs have to even Luck.He also has to learn the nuaances of the style that Harbaugh plans to run. This is the only edge Luck may have. CK has a stronger arm and is faster, bigger and stronger than Luck physically. Remember Luck has talent but was molded by JH, so Harbaugh will know if in the overall scheme of things if CK has a higher ceiling. The only thing we don't know is football intelligence when the game is on. Does everything slow down for him or does it seem like helter skelter as it does with Alex.

Let us not forget that Lucks success is also based on the coaches setting him up to succceed by their game planning and not putting him in a bad position. For the same reason, some thought the niners might take the huskies QB, JH played and saw him enough to know that he wasn't his man. So we can't assume will take him and automatically put him ahead, they may take him but to trade him for a kings ransom.

Also one thing to think about, athletes that play two sports, especially a sport that helps with what they do in another sport almost always succeed and CK as a pitcher goes a long way to helping shape him as a QB.

In the end there are different shades of grey or prospects.

A most sensible post.

Opinions will only change if (i) you make sense, and (ii) the other guy has an open mind. If you want to change opinions, have an open mind yourself. You may discover that your beliefs are ill-founded.

People who are consistently opining on Kap needing to change his throwing motion, being slow on getting the ball out, footwiork, etc., are just close minded and not listening to what the decision maker's and people in the know (in this case Harbaugh) are saying. Yet these posters want others to come around to their way of thinking?!! There's a credibility gap there.

I think in large measure, some (that includes me) where skeptical about Tebow because he was trying to re-learn his throwing motion. At this late stage in a learning cycle that's a tough thing to do IMO. It should be instinct by now and one shouldn't have to think about it. With the speed of the game, one doesn't have time to think mechanics. Indeed in the games themselves, Tebow reverted to his old style. If he continues with his desire to change his throwing mechanicals . . . well, that's a project.

With Kap there will be no such rehabilitation. Harbaugh has indicated that his style is fine. His athleticism is way above average. You've nailed the two factors that will determine his success: (i) His game instincts (something that doesn't come easily to Alex) ,i.e., when things break down as they invariably do, will he ba able to make something happen when it's most needed, and (ii) his intelligence in being able to assimilate the playbook.

IMO Kap will prove so much more adept at the first, that I wouldn't be surprised (and, in fact, I expect) that he be starting over Alex before the season is over. One caveat: That scenario will be more difficult to realize if there is no training camp. I trust that he will have the intelligence to decipher the playbook. Admittedly, I am being a homie-optimist here.

Also what you say about excelling in two sports cannot be underestimated. It just reinforces the conclusion that Kap is a natural born athlete with athletic instincts. A prerequisite to performing as a successful QB in this league, according to Harbaugh, by way of Walsh.

As for Luck: IF the Niners are in a position to pick him, and IF Luck is still the prospect he is currently deemed to be, I'd expect that the Niners would, either, select him, or trarde the position for a king's ransom, depending on how Kap is working out. At this point it's just too much of an unknown.
May 11, 2011 at 9:22 AM
Originally posted by a24hrdad:
Originally posted by 9erred:
Originally posted by a24hrdad:
Mark this down, "Luck's status will drop this season". New HC, new OC new offense. That plus how many sure fire #1 QB's that decided to stay in college kept that spot the next year?

I think we have a good chance to draft him next season. If we draft him or not, I think depends on the QB play this season.

I will take this action. Keep in mind Sam Bradfor got injured, had shoulder surgery and still went number 1. Luck is elite, unlike Leinhart and Locker.

so 24 hr dad you can call me out if I am wrong, but I think Luck will be a top 3 pick and there is no way the niners are picking top 3.

Sam Bradford wasn't the sure thing #1 pick his Junior year. He would have gone high but he wasn't a lock for #1. Matthew Stafford had that wrapped up.

This article says it all:

http://www.nationalfootballauthority.com/2011/03/stanford-cardinal-could-andrew-luck-be.html

By Samuel Ingro

After the Stanford Cardinal's Orange Bowl victory over Virginia Tech, many expected Heisman finalist quarterback Andrew Luck to make his highly-anticipated move into the 2011 NFL Draft.

While Carolina Panthers fans salivated over the 6'4, 235 pound passer that has drawn early comparisons to the Colts' Peyton Manning--Luck was quietly debating returning to Stanford for one more season.

Incidentally, it just so happened to be Manning himself that helped convince Luck to return to school for the 2011 season. His father Oliver explained, “Before he made his decision he had a couple of long conversations with Peyton,” Luck said. “Archie and I played together way back when with the old Houston Oilers, so we’ve known the family, and Peyton’s kind of acted like a mentor to Andrew. So he got advice not just from his old man and his mom, but some people like Peyton Manning, Eli and others who have gone through it.”

While Manning isn't known for making bad decisions, one has to wonder if he gave Luck the right advice. A piece of advice that in all likelihood cost him $25-30 million dollars, especially if a new rookie salary cap comes into play next year.

A recent example of note would be former 2010 NFL Draft projection Jake Locker. The Washington quarterback was slated to go off the board at No. 1 overall according to most mock drafts. He instead opted to forgo the draft and return to school for his senior season, where instead of improving his stock, he declined.

By all accounts he had a sub par season in comparison to his last, finishing with a 6-6 record, and being manhandled by Stanford, Nebraska, and UCLA. Against lesser competition he fared significantly better, but NFL scouts do not care if you can beat Washington State. Needless to say, his stock is much lower than in 2010, hovering anywhere between a middle first and late second round pick.

For Andrew Luck, a fate could easily be the same. As good as he looked last season, his head coach Jim Harbaugh has left for San Francisco, and with him went his assistant head coach Greg Roman, his offensive line's coach Tim Drevno, and the man who dictated how long of a rest Luck's offense got, defensive coordinator Vic Fangio.

To think that the Stanford Cardinal will have as great a run last year as they did under Harbaugh, especially amidst all these changes, the odds are not in their favor. If Luck can overcome these challenges, and still play at a high level, he will cement his status as the 2012 NFL Drafts No. 1 overall pick--otherwise, it looks like Luck may be looking at a Jake Locker-esque slide down draft boards.
May 11, 2011 at 1:31 PM
Originally posted by simplyfloyd:
of course we do. Obviously, if we have the first pick, neither alex or collin have done a good job. So, we take luck.

However, I highly, Highly doubt we have the first pick this year. We will at least win 5 games.

I'm setting my expectations low so anything above that will make my year..haha

Colin hasn't even stepped out on the field and you say Colin hasn't done a good job?

Well neither has Luck-in the NFL, until any QB does they are neither the next big thing or the biggest bust since....
May 11, 2011 at 5:08 PM
  • Kolohe
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Originally posted by WildBill:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by WillistheWall:
+ Show all quotes
Thanks. I dont think it will change any opinions however, but I still stand by what I said.

I'm just trying to point out the double standard. People didn't want Tebow because he was coming from a gimmicky offense and had a slow release, and was considered by most a project who will take some time to develop. But now that we've drafted Kaepernick, hes not a project, but a prospect???WTF!!!

I have to disagree with my fellow Haw'n bruddha, as far as delivery, it has already been said by Harbaugh himself that CK's delivery is fine, in fact in the ESPN special on QBs, it showed how fast from the time the target is open till the time it took CK to throw it to the hoop was the fastest. Also in that drill he had to drop back from the line of scrimmage and couldn't throw till one of the three targets lit up. His footwork was fine, his reaction and delivery and touch was fine, actually better than fine. Harbaugh also said he won't tinker w/his delivery.

If anything, he has to learn is reading the schemes of the NFL and adjusting to tighter coverages and the speed of the game, but all QBs have to even Luck.He also has to learn the nuaances of the style that Harbaugh plans to run. This is the only edge Luck may have. CK has a stronger arm and is faster, bigger and stronger than Luck physically. Remember Luck has talent but was molded by JH, so Harbaugh will know if in the overall scheme of things if CK has a higher ceiling. The only thing we don't know is football intelligence when the game is on. Does everything slow down for him or does it seem like helter skelter as it does with Alex.

Let us not forget that Lucks success is also based on the coaches setting him up to succceed by their game planning and not putting him in a bad position. For the same reason, some thought the niners might take the huskies QB, JH played and saw him enough to know that he wasn't his man. So we can't assume will take him and automatically put him ahead, they may take him but to trade him for a kings ransom.

Also one thing to think about, athletes that play two sports, especially a sport that helps with what they do in another sport almost always succeed and CK as a pitcher goes a long way to helping shape him as a QB.

In the end there are different shades of grey or prospects.

Right on that's cool.

But how do we know how good his footwork/mechanics is at the next level, when there's no pass rush coming at him?? As for changing a QB's release/devlivery, most times its pretty much a thing NOT to do, you don't wanna make him more uncomfortable than he already will be at the next level, but it can be done, see Aaron Rodgers who used to hold the ball by his ear hole. And its been said, no QB is a finished product coming outta college, some need to work on more things than others - hence the word "project".

Pitchers that try to make it as QB's in the NFL usually don't succeed, see - Drew Henson and Chad Hutchinson, lots of wear and tear on their throwing arms.

In the end, we'll just have to see how Kaepernick translates.
May 11, 2011 at 5:10 PM
  • Kolohe
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Originally posted by WildBill:
Originally posted by simplyfloyd:
of course we do. Obviously, if we have the first pick, neither alex or collin have done a good job. So, we take luck.

However, I highly, Highly doubt we have the first pick this year. We will at least win 5 games.

I'm setting my expectations low so anything above that will make my year..haha

Colin hasn't even stepped out on the field and you say Colin hasn't done a good job?

Well neither has Luck-in the NFL, until any QB does they are neither the next big thing or the biggest bust since....

Hes actually just answering the question in the title. Hes assuming Kaepenick struggled throughout the season, therefore it would be a no-brainer to select Andrew Luck.
May 11, 2011 at 7:40 PM
Originally posted by mayo49:
Just hypothetically. Discuss.

yes
May 11, 2011 at 7:46 PM
Kap is a project and I hope we have the chance to draft Luck. I think he's a can't miss prospect similar to Peyton Manning
May 11, 2011 at 9:03 PM
  • Kolohe
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Even Kaepernick says hes a project:

Quote:

I’m portrayed as a little bit more of a raw athlete than quarterbacks that run an NFL-style system, but this week I really wanted to show that my physical tools, my footwork is pretty fine tuned,” said Kaepernick, who passed for 10,098 yards, threw for 82 touchdowns and rushed for another 59 scores in his four seasons. “I’m not a long-term project going into the NFL.”

Mayock seems to think so too:

Quote:
"Kaepernick I think is a great project," Mayock said. "He's got mechanical issues, but he's got a big arm and someone is going to develop him."

Link
May 11, 2011 at 11:16 PM
Simple, only draft Luck if Kap does not seem to be the our future qb.

I doubt that though, I trust my Harbaugh
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