Coby Fleener - TE Stanford

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by Kolohe:
Will you be lining up Fleener outside every other play, and also throwing a two-TE set every other play too?? If that's the case, just re-sign Justin Peele who does exactly that. Remember only one football gets thrown around in a football game. Nevermind that we also have a Pro Bowl TE already on the roster, what the heck do we have at receiver???

Having a #2 receiver as opposed to a #2 TE, speed, quickness, routes are the advantages for one.

Would I be mad if Fleener was drafted in the 1st....not at all, but I see your bias, no need to get personal, JMO.

Not getting personal, just wondering. Unless you have exceptional receivers, its fairly straightforward to shut them down with good cornerback play, there's quite a few teams that have 2 good cornerbacks. It's a hell of a lot more difficult to shut down two top tight-ends. Teams aren't prepared for it, the Patriots were lighting teams up last year because they couldn't handle the mismatch, too bad their secondary was absolute garbage.

Its one thing when you're the Giants and you have Eli and he's got quick receivers that he can basically make passes to them in tight windows, its another when you have any overly conservative Alex Smith who has shown a fondness for TE's and a reluctance to throw to WR's. Even if you get some stud receiver, it's not like that receiver is going to be destroying coverage all the time, Alex still has to make the passes, and from what I've seen, a 6'6" TE across the middle who can corral some of his higher lobs is going to be a lot more valuable than another receiver who might not be anymore productive than Crabtree.

Well to the exception, the Patriots do have solid receivers in Welker, Branch and Eldeman who all are capable of stretching the field and taking pressure off the TE's. As opposed to Crabtree, Williams and John Matthews. But also look at the difference in offenses, NE is very pass-happy opposed to our more run-heavy or actually more balanced attack. What we need more is speed on offense or explosiveness, we barely have a #1 receiver, not to mention we possibly will lose half our receiver squad via free agency. I mean if it were that easy with dual TE's, why not line up 3 or 4 then?? Why, because defenses our much more fast now a days and you need the speed to keep the defenses honest.

Originally posted by Kolohe:
Well to the exception, the Patriots do have solid receivers in Welker, Branch and Eldeman who all are capable of stretching the field and taking pressure off the TE's. As opposed to Crabtree, Williams and John Matthews. But also look at the difference in offenses, NE is very pass-happy opposed to our more run-heavy or actually more balanced attack. What we need more is speed on offense or explosiveness, we barely have a #1 receiver, not to mention we possibly will lose half our receiver squad via free agency. I mean if it were that easy with dual TE's, why not line up 3 or 4 then?? Why, because defenses our much more fast now a days and you need the speed to keep the defenses honest.

I disagree with the bolded. Welker and Edelman are both very quick, but not fast. Branch is neither anymore, but he runs disciplined routes and knows the nuances of his scheme. They get open and they make catches, but they do not stretch or take the top off of defenses. I think you don't line up three or four TEs because there are simply not enough of them that are that special athlete that acts as a dual-threat difference maker. You lose explosiveness in you offense when you replace Crab and Morgan with Byham and Peele, but you would also make the offense less dangerous if you were to replace Vernon and Fleener (I know we don't have him... yet) with Ginn and Williams. It's about playmakers, and the ability to outrun CB's and box safeties, and to outreach/outmuscle CBs and Free safeties makes a player special. I think we would jump on Blackmon, Wright, or possibly Floyd if they were available, but i doubt they would be. IMO, Fleener presents great value and a great fit at 30, and I think he would provide a more immediate and tangible lift to the offense than any of the WRs that should be available there.

Originally posted by WRATHman44:

Originally posted by Kolohe:
Well to the exception, the Patriots do have solid receivers in Welker, Branch and Eldeman who all are capable of stretching the field and taking pressure off the TE's. As opposed to Crabtree, Williams and John Matthews. But also look at the difference in offenses, NE is very pass-happy opposed to our more run-heavy or actually more balanced attack. What we need more is speed on offense or explosiveness, we barely have a #1 receiver, not to mention we possibly will lose half our receiver squad via free agency. I mean if it were that easy with dual TE's, why not line up 3 or 4 then?? Why, because defenses our much more fast now a days and you need the speed to keep the defenses honest.

I disagree with the bolded. Welker and Edelman are both very quick, but not fast. Branch is neither anymore, but he runs disciplined routes and knows the nuances of his scheme. They get open and they make catches, but they do not stretch or take the top off of defenses. I think you don't line up three or four TEs because there are simply not enough of them that are that special athlete that acts as a dual-threat difference maker. You lose explosiveness in you offense when you replace Crab and Morgan with Byham and Peele, but you would also make the offense less dangerous if you were to replace Vernon and Fleener (I know we don't have him... yet) with Ginn and Williams. It's about playmakers, and the ability to outrun CB's and box safeties, and to outreach/outmuscle CBs and Free safeties makes a player special. I think we would jump on Blackmon, Wright, or possibly Floyd if they were available, but i doubt they would be. IMO, Fleener presents great value and a great fit at 30, and I think he would provide a more immediate and tangible lift to the offense than any of the WRs that should be available there.

Welker and Eldeman are both very capable of stretching the field, we SHOULD both agree upon that without having to bring stats into this. Branch is also still dangerous enough that he takes pressure off the TE's and opens up the underneath routes, I just don't see how you could disagree. But with as deep as NE is at the TE position, not even they run two or three TE's constantly in between the 20's. NE's second TE doesn't even have 200 yards receiving with only 2 TD's, and as pass-happy NE what makes anyone think Fleener would have just as much or more with our balanced attack?? Now I could see if we were running a Coryell or smiliar to Norv Turner's offense, utilizing a lot of two-TE sets with heavy play-action down field passing, but we're not, which is even more of a reason NOT to draft another TE in the 1st round. NOW, if Fleener falls to us in the 2nd than by all means pull the damn trigger, but as it stands we're better off adding another DE/LB, CB, DE, OG or WR in the 1st round.

Originally posted by Kolohe:
Welker and Eldeman are both very capable of stretching the field, we SHOULD both agree upon that without having to bring stats into this. Branch is also still dangerous enough that he takes pressure off the TE's and opens up the underneath routes, I just don't see how you could disagree. But with as deep as NE is at the TE position, not even they run two or three TE's constantly in between the 20's. NE's second TE doesn't even have 200 yards receiving with only 2 TD's, and as pass-happy NE what makes anyone think Fleener would have just as much or more with our balanced attack?? Now I could see if we were running a Coryell or smiliar to Norv Turner's offense, utilizing a lot of two-TE sets with heavy play-action down field passing, but we're not, which is even more of a reason NOT to draft another TE in the 1st round. NOW, if Fleener falls to us in the 2nd than by all means pull the damn trigger, but as it stands we're better off adding another DE/LB, CB, DE, OG or WR in the 1st round.

2011 Season

Rob Gronkowski: Rec-90, Yds-1,327, TD-17

Aaron Hernandez: Rec-79, Yds-910, TD-7

I agree with most of your points but I couldn't let the NE te claim go your numbers were way way off. The bottom line for our team was the red zone inefficiency, we couldn't score points in the end zone, we have to improve that to make a serious run for the Superbowl, take a glance at the following numbers.

All combinations of our #2 Wrs (Josh Morgan-1, Kyle Williams-3, Ted Ginn Jr-0, Braylon Edwards-0, Brett Swain-0)
Receiving Touchdowns Scored: 4

#2 TE(Delanie Walker)
Receiving Touchdowns Scored: 3

Even though Delanie was out for an extended period of time, we can see how the #2 TE position in our offense has a larger emphasis that the #2 receiver at least in the red zone. Take that along with how tight ends dominated the playoffs and I feel more and more comfortable with picking up Fleener in the 1st.

Originally posted by Kolohe:

Originally posted by WRATHman44:

Originally posted by Kolohe:
Well to the exception, the Patriots do have solid receivers in Welker, Branch and Eldeman who all are capable of stretching the field and taking pressure off the TE's. As opposed to Crabtree, Williams and John Matthews. But also look at the difference in offenses, NE is very pass-happy opposed to our more run-heavy or actually more balanced attack. What we need more is speed on offense or explosiveness, we barely have a #1 receiver, not to mention we possibly will lose half our receiver squad via free agency. I mean if it were that easy with dual TE's, why not line up 3 or 4 then?? Why, because defenses our much more fast now a days and you need the speed to keep the defenses honest.

I disagree with the bolded. Welker and Edelman are both very quick, but not fast. Branch is neither anymore, but he runs disciplined routes and knows the nuances of his scheme. They get open and they make catches, but they do not stretch or take the top off of defenses. I think you don't line up three or four TEs because there are simply not enough of them that are that special athlete that acts as a dual-threat difference maker. You lose explosiveness in you offense when you replace Crab and Morgan with Byham and Peele, but you would also make the offense less dangerous if you were to replace Vernon and Fleener (I know we don't have him... yet) with Ginn and Williams. It's about playmakers, and the ability to outrun CB's and box safeties, and to outreach/outmuscle CBs and Free safeties makes a player special. I think we would jump on Blackmon, Wright, or possibly Floyd if they were available, but i doubt they would be. IMO, Fleener presents great value and a great fit at 30, and I think he would provide a more immediate and tangible lift to the offense than any of the WRs that should be available there.

Welker and Eldeman are both very capable of stretching the field, we SHOULD both agree upon that without having to bring stats into this. Branch is also still dangerous enough that he takes pressure off the TE's and opens up the underneath routes, I just don't see how you could disagree. But with as deep as NE is at the TE position, not even they run two or three TE's constantly in between the 20's. NE's second TE doesn't even have 200 yards receiving with only 2 TD's, and as pass-happy NE what makes anyone think Fleener would have just as much or more with our balanced attack?? Now I could see if we were running a Coryell or smiliar to Norv Turner's offense, utilizing a lot of two-TE sets with heavy play-action down field passing, but we're not, which is even more of a reason NOT to draft another TE in the 1st round. NOW, if Fleener falls to us in the 2nd than by all means pull the damn trigger, but as it stands we're better off adding another DE/LB, CB, DE, OG or WR in the 1st round.

Their 2nd te was Hernandez and he had 910 yards recieving and 7 TDs

Originally posted by Kolohe:
Welker and Eldeman are both very capable of stretching the field, we SHOULD both agree upon that without having to bring stats into this. Branch is also still dangerous enough that he takes pressure off the TE's and opens up the underneath routes, I just don't see how you could disagree. But with as deep as NE is at the TE position, not even they run two or three TE's constantly in between the 20's. NE's second TE doesn't even have 200 yards receiving with only 2 TD's, and as pass-happy NE what makes anyone think Fleener would have just as much or more with our balanced attack?? Now I could see if we were running a Coryell or smiliar to Norv Turner's offense, utilizing a lot of two-TE sets with heavy play-action down field passing, but we're not, which is even more of a reason NOT to draft another TE in the 1st round. NOW, if Fleener falls to us in the 2nd than by all means pull the damn trigger, but as it stands we're better off adding another DE/LB, CB, DE, OG or WR in the 1st round.

Now you're just saying anything.

Originally posted by Kolohe:
Welker and Eldeman are both very capable of stretching the field, we SHOULD both agree upon that without having to bring stats into this. Branch is also still dangerous enough that he takes pressure off the TE's and opens up the underneath routes, I just don't see how you could disagree. But with as deep as NE is at the TE position, not even they run two or three TE's constantly in between the 20's. NE's second TE doesn't even have 200 yards receiving with only 2 TD's, and as pass-happy NE what makes anyone think Fleener would have just as much or more with our balanced attack?? Now I could see if we were running a Coryell or smiliar to Norv Turner's offense, utilizing a lot of two-TE sets with heavy play-action down field passing, but we're not, which is even more of a reason NOT to draft another TE in the 1st round. NOW, if Fleener falls to us in the 2nd than by all means pull the damn trigger, but as it stands we're better off adding another DE/LB, CB, DE, OG or WR in the 1st round.

IF they are capable of stretching the field, they don't actually do it. They both do their damage with under neath routes: mostly slants, crosses, outs, shake-outs, shake-ins, and drags. The Superbowl was the first time I saw Welker run an even marginally-deep (MAYBE 20yds) route in a while, and Brady was so surprised that he missed him, no matter what his bag-of-bones wife has to say. Like I said, Branch runs good, crafty routes, but he's definitely not pulling safety help off of the TEs. ever. I think your statement about the #2 tight end has been covered adequately. I think you are trying so hard to make a point that you lost touch with the facts for a moment. The team and players you are describing do not match-up with what I see on the field. I could be crazy, but I don't think so (would I know if I WAS? )

Originally posted by WillistheWall:

Originally posted by Kolohe:

Originally posted by WRATHman44:

Originally posted by Kolohe:
Well to the exception, the Patriots do have solid receivers in Welker, Branch and Eldeman who all are capable of stretching the field and taking pressure off the TE's. As opposed to Crabtree, Williams and John Matthews. But also look at the difference in offenses, NE is very pass-happy opposed to our more run-heavy or actually more balanced attack. What we need more is speed on offense or explosiveness, we barely have a #1 receiver, not to mention we possibly will lose half our receiver squad via free agency. I mean if it were that easy with dual TE's, why not line up 3 or 4 then?? Why, because defenses our much more fast now a days and you need the speed to keep the defenses honest.

I disagree with the bolded. Welker and Edelman are both very quick, but not fast. Branch is neither anymore, but he runs disciplined routes and knows the nuances of his scheme. They get open and they make catches, but they do not stretch or take the top off of defenses. I think you don't line up three or four TEs because there are simply not enough of them that are that special athlete that acts as a dual-threat difference maker. You lose explosiveness in you offense when you replace Crab and Morgan with Byham and Peele, but you would also make the offense less dangerous if you were to replace Vernon and Fleener (I know we don't have him... yet) with Ginn and Williams. It's about playmakers, and the ability to outrun CB's and box safeties, and to outreach/outmuscle CBs and Free safeties makes a player special. I think we would jump on Blackmon, Wright, or possibly Floyd if they were available, but i doubt they would be. IMO, Fleener presents great value and a great fit at 30, and I think he would provide a more immediate and tangible lift to the offense than any of the WRs that should be available there.

Welker and Eldeman are both very capable of stretching the field, we SHOULD both agree upon that without having to bring stats into this. Branch is also still dangerous enough that he takes pressure off the TE's and opens up the underneath routes, I just don't see how you could disagree. But with as deep as NE is at the TE position, not even they run two or three TE's constantly in between the 20's. NE's second TE doesn't even have 200 yards receiving with only 2 TD's, and as pass-happy NE what makes anyone think Fleener would have just as much or more with our balanced attack?? Now I could see if we were running a Coryell or smiliar to Norv Turner's offense, utilizing a lot of two-TE sets with heavy play-action down field passing, but we're not, which is even more of a reason NOT to draft another TE in the 1st round. NOW, if Fleener falls to us in the 2nd than by all means pull the damn trigger, but as it stands we're better off adding another DE/LB, CB, DE, OG or WR in the 1st round.

Their 2nd te was Hernandez and he had 910 yards recieving and 7 TDs

Yah, I made the mistake of checking his stats on the depth chart which I think shows their playoff stats.

If this dude is there, I say we take him and address WR with FA or later in the draft.

Originally posted by Kolohe:
Yah, I made the mistake of checking his stats on the depth chart which I think shows their playoff stats.

btw even if they do have 2 legit TE they have welker a legit #1 WR (reallyt here only WR)

i dont think eiter rokowski or hernandex would have the season they did without welker he is so fast across the flat and he is always doubled or extra attention is put on him


we dont have that guy at WR yet

I used to be all over Fleener but I'm now thinking we go another route.

I'd bet Trent and Jim have several TE's that they like in later rounds (3-4) that could fit the bill for 3rd down and red zone.

They are gonna have a player ranking and will stick to it. Just like last year when drafting.

I'd like us to go pretty much all O but I doubt the draft falls that way for us.

I would not be suprised if we end up with a cb, de/olb and or dt with our first and second round picks. We still need these positions and if the highest player rated at the time we pick is one of them, we go that route.

So, we push hard to pickup a #1 wr in FA, which frees up our draft position!

will not be at the combine due to ankle issues

Originally posted by vrabbit:
will not be at the combine due to ankle issues

wow he may drop behind allen and chares then chrles will explode at combine

he will however drop to #2 TE for sure though

Originally posted by vrabbit:
will not be at the combine due to ankle issues

zomg?!??! setting the stage for us at #30! Bottom line for me is that if he has a great pro day and the Colts want to give Luck a pass catching target for chemistry purposes I don't see the Fleener falling past #34 over all.

Unless the colts want to add a lineman to protect Luck they would be dumb as hell to pass on Fleener if is sitting on the board at the beginning of the 2nd.

check that, will not RUN at the combine