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Coby Fleener - TE Stanford

Originally posted by sfout:
yay for logic!

1ATE + 1BTE + 1WR(Crabtree, Morgan, or FA like Garcon, Meachem, Manningham, Royal) + Gore/Hunter + Miller/Walker would be so amazing to see on the field at the same time

Agreed. And you will see that other WRs like Doucet, Douglas, Robinson and Simpson as well as the ones you mentioned could be had cheaper than the Jacksons, Colston, and Bowe. I really liked Royal, Douglas and Simpson coming out of college. Both Royal and Douglas handle ST duties as well. I can't remember if Simpson does. Any way, we have some great options at FA WR this year.

I have been on the Fleener bandwagon so don't get me wrong here. I'm guessing that Harbaugh and the staff don't see the offense as bad as we do. We see poor Redzone and 3rd down conversions, Alex barely throwing for 200 yards a game and our wr's only catching 1 pass in the Championship.

I'm just guessing that Harbaugh probably cares more about Alex getting sacked more than any other QB and the injuries we had with Crabs and Morgan and Ginn and Braylon, etc... They might think that if they protect Alex more than we would have been more effecient on offense. Or if we had Morgan all year and if Braylon stayed healthy. If they go this route then they might just sign Morgan and another FA to fill the Braylon void. Then draft or sign some Oline to keep Alex more protected.

None of that changes Fleener fitting into the offense though. We still used 2 TE sets alot and another great TE would be an upgrade over Delanie. But they may just sign the guys I said and then draft Oline at 30 to protect Alex or target one wr they really like in the draft but it might not be with the 30 pick.

I still say Fleener or Allen at 30 is a better upgrade...
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Originally posted by ninertico:
Originally posted by sfout:
yay for logic!

1ATE + 1BTE + 1WR(Crabtree, Morgan, or FA like Garcon, Meachem, Manningham, Royal) + Gore/Hunter + Miller/Walker would be so amazing to see on the field at the same time

Agreed. And you will see that other WRs like Doucet, Douglas, Robinson and Simpson as well as the ones you mentioned could be had cheaper than the Jacksons, Colston, and Bowe. I really liked Royal, Douglas and Simpson coming out of college. Both Royal and Douglas handle ST duties as well. I can't remember if Simpson does. Any way, we have some great options at FA WR this year.


Rather then sell out for a high priced and old WR I'd rather focus on getting a good core going on our offense and retaining our defense. People are also forgetting that Andy Lee, Sopoaga, RJF and Walker are FAs after this coming season so if we are going to make any preemptive extensions we need to figure some of those #'s into the 2012 cap number. Also Bowman and T. Brown are 2014 free agents and if Bowman is in the middle of having another monster year next season I would think the FO would like to have some wiggle room to maybe offer him an extension a full year before he hits the open market.

All speculative but we need to be thinking about the big, big picture not just this spring's free agent crop so the 30-39M in cap space(which # is correct) shouldn't be used in its entirety this off season.
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Here is why I think adding Fleener, a pass catching and versatile TE to the team makes more sense then adding an "outside" rookie who could struggle to pick up the playbook. Adding a receiving target that is familiar with the system would be the best thing for us for the following reason but first a disclaimer.....

I am in no way comparing Alex Smith to Andrew Luck with the following statement but only pointing out schematic similarities!


It isn't fair to compare a 19 year old kid to a 27 year old who has played professional football for 6 years and has great success in college but in terms of the system and the proverbial training wheels the first year of Alex is statistically nearly identical to the way Harbaugh ran the offense through Luck and it increased each year. Especially if we notice a similar growth curve in Alex Year 2 we will truly see that JH had some weird master plan going on behind the scenes.

What makes Luck such a great QB is his ability to simply torch a defense on any given day but do you know what Luck's average YPG was when didn't obliterate an opponent and simply played within the system? Yes I'm aware that college plays a short season but I'm thinking on a per game basis what is the average of the passing attack under JH.

Luck year 1:
11 games he didn't break 300: 195
Full season including blowouts: 214

Luck year 2
10 games he didn't break 300 YPG:237
Full season including the blowouts: 256

Luck year 3
8 games he didn't break 300 YPG(Alex never did this season) and Luck's YPG: 226
Full season including the blowouts: 270

Alex year 1
16 regular season games: 197
plus playoffs: 202

-----
Another interesting statistic
Luck year 1 top 3 RB rush #: 2500
Luck year 2 top 3 RB rush #: 2000
Luck year 3 top 3 RB rush #: 2000


Alex year 1 top 3 RB rush #: 1700

They clearly relied heavily on their run game and once the QB got acclimated to the system they let him loose. The vast difference in rush #'s is easily attributed to the speed of NFL defenders and the level of difficulty in NFL compared to college but clearly we were handicapped this past year and plugging in a pass catching target who will know the system from day 1 will only help Alex's growth and consequently help the entire offense grow as a whole.
[ Edited by sfout on Feb 21, 2012 at 2:36 PM ]
this is CJ spiller all over again and kind of funny. Would i like to have Fleener on the 49er yes for sure. I love the way he catchesthe ball. he is a better WR then any TE we have right now. however I don't think TE is high on list of player the 49ers need. If there is a WR or DB or Inside OL that they rate just as High as they do Fleener i think they will take them first. Plus none of this really matters till after pro day or combine. if Fleener go out and run a 4.5 i do not think he will be there at pick 30 and if he runs at 4.7 or 4.8 im not sure if he is a first round pick.
[ Edited by dlance on Feb 21, 2012 at 3:14 PM ]
Originally posted by dlance:
this is CJ spiller all over again and kind of funny. Would i like to have Fleener on the 49er yes for sure. I love the way he catchesthe ball. he is a better WR then any TE we have right now. however I don't think TE is high on list of player the 49ers need. If there is a WR or DB or Inside OL that they rate just as High as they do Fleener i think they will take them first. Plus none of this really matters till after pro day or combine. if Fleener go out and run a 4.5 i do not think he will be there at pick 30 and if he runs at 4.7 or 4.8 im not sure if he is a first round pick.

In no way, shape or form is this CJ Spiller unless you consider third-down conversion rate improvement, better red-zone scoring and causing defense mismatches a "luxury."


I also don't think that this team is going for another OL early, not even close. 4 1st rounders on the same line? That's just ridiculous. Snyder did fine for what its worth and Kilgore is developing behind him, more than anything else what this OL needs is CONTINUITY. Guys playing next to each other, developing chemistry, growing together as a unit.
[ Edited by Phoenix49ers on Feb 21, 2012 at 4:00 PM ]
i want this guy in the first bad. Then gimme a big WR in the second, randle or hill. Resign Morgan, pickup one or two second tier FA guys with special teams ability like royal and maybe bring back ginn. Pickup a mid-late round running back to replace dixon. I personally don't like crabs and would trade him for whatever i could get.

TE-VD, Fleener, Walker
RB-Gore, Hunter, Rookie
WR-Morgan, Rookie, williams, Royal, Ginn

I would be happy with something like that, and we wouldn't have to break the bank to accomplish it.
May have already been posted on this threat but Fleener is NOT running at the combine due to a high ankle sprain. Earliest teams can see him run is at the Stanford Pro Day.

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/playerbreakingnews.asp?sport=NFL&id=7418&line=228086&spln=1
[ Edited by pete98146 on Feb 21, 2012 at 4:12 PM ]
Originally posted by pete98146:
May have already been posted on this threat but Fleener is NOT running at the combine due to a high ankle sprain. Earliest teams can see him run is at the Stanford Pro Day.

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/playerbreakingnews.asp?sport=NFL&id=7418&line=228086&spln=1

already posted
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Originally posted by dlance:
this is CJ spiller all over again and kind of funny. Would i like to have Fleener on the 49er yes for sure. I love the way he catchesthe ball. he is a better WR then any TE we have right now. however I don't think TE is high on list of player the 49ers need. If there is a WR or DB or Inside OL that they rate just as High as they do Fleener i think they will take them first. Plus none of this really matters till after pro day or combine. if Fleener go out and run a 4.5 i do not think he will be there at pick 30 and if he runs at 4.7 or 4.8 im not sure if he is a first round pick.

In no way, shape or form is this CJ Spiller unless you consider third-down conversion rate improvement, better red-zone scoring and causing defense mismatches a "luxury."


I also don't think that this team is going for another OL early, not even close. 4 1st rounders on the same line? That's just ridiculous. Snyder did fine for what its worth and Kilgore is developing behind him, more than anything else what this OL needs is CONTINUITY. Guys playing next to each other, developing chemistry, growing together as a unit.

I didnt mean CJ Spiller and Fleener are the same type of player there nothing alike. it just that some on the board wanted CJ no matter what. he was going to be there and they need to take him no matter what. that is kind of how some people feel about Fleener . Im not ragging on him at all. I really like him. and no i don't think taking another OL in the first is what they should be doing. I do think they need a RG more then another TE. and your right Snyder did just fine last year i was suprice at how well he played. if at pick 30 Fleener is still there and he is there BPA then they should take him. that is how i feel. Right now I think if he comes out and run a 4.5 or anything close to it i do not think he will be there at pick 30.
Originally posted by dlance:
I didnt mean CJ Spiller and Fleener are the same type of player there nothing alike. it just that some on the board wanted CJ no matter what. he was going to be there and they need to take him no matter what. that is kind of how some people feel about Fleener . Im not ragging on him at all. I really like him. and no i don't think taking another OL in the first is what they should be doing. I do think they need a RG more then another TE. and your right Snyder did just fine last year i was suprice at how well he played. if at pick 30 Fleener is still there and he is there BPA then they should take him. that is how i feel. Right now I think if he comes out and run a 4.5 or anything close to it i do not think he will be there at pick 30.

Even if he comes out and runs a 4.8 or something like that, Harbaugh knows Fleener better than anyone else, he recruited the guy and while coaching him learned a lot more about him than what any scout can ascertain in a short period of time. If the 49ers draft Fleener, its a clear sign that Harbaugh has full faith that the guy can be a major contributor to the 49ers.
  • ImaMod
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Originally posted by nw9erfan:
Originally posted by ImaMod:
Exactly. We don't even have a #1 receiver and people want to draft a no.2 TE when we already have an elite TE
I dont get it lol

That is the whole point... He wouldn't be a "number 2 TE"... He would be a "1B TE"....because the Niners would run a 2 TE offense as their base....

End of story, thanks for coming, good night....

Cheers!

Ya and we still wouldnt have a #1 WR


Originally posted by tjd808185:
Well I think most of the Fleener supporters believe that #1 WR is only going to be a good #2 receiver.

Would you rather have Michael Crabtree or Aaron Hernandez?

I would rather have Michael Crabtree. I dont want our starting receivers to be Kyle Williams and Brett Swaine in the NFC championship game


Originally posted by sfout:
yay for logic!

1ATE + 1BTE + 1WR(Crabtree, Morgan, or FA like Garcon, Meachem, Manningham, Royal) + Gore/Hunter + Miller/Walker would be so amazing to see on the field at the same time

yay a bunch of #2 WRs = logic. Ok I think I get it now lets ignore one of the biggest reasons we lost in the NFC championship game and stock pile #2 and #3 WRs and waste a first round pick on something we already have and dont need
[ Edited by ImaMod on Feb 21, 2012 at 9:28 PM ]
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Originally posted by ImaMod:
yay a bunch of #2 WRs = logic. Ok I think I get it now lets ignore one of the biggest reasons we lost in the NFC championship game and stock pile #2 and #3 WRs and waste a first round pick on something we already have and dont need

We lost the game for a lot of other reasons before the lack of WR catches affect the outcome.....
1. Lack of execution or sticking to the game plan
2. defense or specifically Rogers got torched by Cruz for an entire half then when we adjusted to it they torched us with another wideout
3. Alex smith falling back into a less risk taking mindset / possible result of play calling or the WRs not able to get open
4. Kyle Williams 2 terrible turnovers
5. the utter lack of depth at WR after crabtree.

Who is this magical #1 WR that we would draft at #30th overall? I already posted the statistical history of drafting a 1st round WR gives us a 1 in 4 chance at drafting a complete bust, a 1 in 4 chance of drafting a "randy moss like #1" and 2 in 4 shot at drafting a #2 or #3 talent. its a complete crapshoot when picking a WR in the early rounds.

The projected WRs to be selected from the 15th pick to the 45th pick
Michael Floyd - He reminds of Hakeem Nicks in weird way
Kendall Wright - A mix between Desean Jackson and Antonio Brown
Rueben Randle - I struggle to find find a good comparison to him lol
Alshon Jeffery - He could end up being the next "Big Mike" Williams :(
Mohamed Sanu - A near replica of Kenny Britt(not just because their both from Rutgers lol)
- Goes without saying that if Floyd or Wright fell to us we'd absolutely have to take them but after that it gets debatable what they should do with the pick. All 3 of the remaining guys are high risk, high reward picks. Randle has almost no tape because of the emphasis on the run game and the poor qb play, Jeffery's production fell off because of QB play and their is the ever present issue of "character concens", the knock on Sanu is he looks just as slow as Jeffery but lacks his jumping ability and height, he makes up for it with acrobatic catches and amazing hands but he leaves a lot to be desired.
My choice of the top 3 WRs at #30
-Rueben Randle - superb hands and body control and is an efficient blocker
-Alshon Jeffery - The athleticism is too great to pass up, if he runs a 4.5 we have to take him
-Mohamed Sanu - those hands and amazing body control would really help us on 3rd down but his lack of burst and quick twitch put him at the bottom for me.


The top free agent talent was drafted all over the board or not at all.

VJAX: Round 2 - 61st pick
Wayne: Round 1 - 30th pick
Welker - Undrafted
Desean - Round 2 - 49th pick
Bowe - round 1 - 23rd pick
Stevie - round 7 - 224th pick
Colston - round 7 - 252th pick
Wallace - round 3 - 84th pick

Rather then take a shot with an unknown prospect at #30 It makes so much more sense for us to draft a TE familiar with the system, subsequently allowing for more 2TE sets in our offense and giving Alex another playmaker on offense while looking to the mid to late rounds for WR depth and possibly free agency should Baalke and Harbaugh deem it necessary

As it stands right now Crabtree was "#1 receiver" for the whole year right up until he disappeared after that TD against the saints and unless Harbaugh goes back on his word of re-signing morgan we at best need a #2 and #4 WR

1-Crabtree
2-???????
3-Morgan
4-???????
5-Williams

Morgan is probably the most dependable #3 you can imagine, he was on pace to replicate his 2010 #s before injury of 45 catches for 650+ yards 3 TDs. Anyone saying that isn't solid production for at minimum a #3 WIdeout is just being stubborn and unreasonable

Through nearly an entire season Williams showed nothing to say he should stay on the roster or really be cut. Not counting his 56 yard catch and run against the rams he had 19 catches for 190 yards, not exactly astounding #s but what was more important that 14 of those catches resulted in 1st downs, also had 8 catches on 3rd down 2 of them resulted in TDs. The guy is worthy of the #5 maybe #4 gig but I can easily see that we can find an upgrade.

Crabtree statistically has shown that he is going to be at minimum an 80 catch for 950-1050 yard receiver which according to that ESPN article I posted is one of the requirements for a #1 receiver(only 17 1st round receivers since 2001 have posted multiple 1000 yard seasons) and Crabtree looks capable of doing so for years to come.

Something I feel compelled to remind everyone is that Crabtree is just 24 years old and he will get better!


Vincent Jackson first 5 seasons looked like this.
2005. 8 games 3 catches for 59 yards 0 TDs
2006: 16 games 27 catches for 453 yards 6 TDs
2007: 16 games 41 catches for 623 yards 3 TDs
then he hit his pro-bowl form with Rivers
and had 2 seasons 59+ catches 1,100+ yards 7+TDs

Crabtree's first 3 seasons
2009: 11 games 48 catches 625 yards 2 TDs
2010: 16 games 55 catches 741 yards 6 TDs
2011: 15 games 72 catches 874 yards 4 TDs

Every year he has improved and if he had been healthy for the whole season he would've easily pushed for 1,000 yards. Hes also done this with a QB carousel of Alex Smith to Shaun Hill to Alex Smith to Troy Smith to Alex Smith, imagine if he had the same QB for every single game. They've also said Alex and Crabtree still lack chemistry, can you imagine what they'd be like if they "had" chemistry!?!?!

You never know if Crabtree is going to explode the way Vincent Jackson did and we just need to stay faithful that the upward trend that Crabtree has displayed holds true.

My re-rank of the 2009 1st round WR class
1. Hakeem Nicks
2. Michael Crabtree
3. Percy Harvin
4. Jeremy Maclin
5. Kenny Britt
6. Darrius Heyward-Bey

After 3 years we have the 2nd best WR out of the 1st round selections, I like the odds of success that he'll get better. We have a #1 on our roster and we just need a #2 that can rotate with Josh Morgan, then we need to look at our depth and find players to compete with Kyle Williams.
[ Edited by sfout on Feb 21, 2012 at 10:59 PM ]
Originally posted by ImaMod:
Ya and we still wouldnt have a #1 WR



I would rather have Michael Crabtree. I dont want our starting receivers to be Kyle Williams and Brett Swaine in the NFC championship game



yay a bunch of #2 WRs = logic. Ok I think I get it now lets ignore one of the biggest reasons we lost in the NFC championship game and stock pile #2 and #3 WRs and waste a first round pick on something we already have and dont need



Yeah, and while you're making a dream wish-list, I'd like to see Drew Brees at QB for the 49ers.


There's about 10 legit #1 guys in the NFL, period. You think that just by drafting a guy at the ass end of the 1st, he'll come in and take the league by storm, rather than being yet another guy who gets shutdown by a single CB? On top of that, you think Alex can make the necessary passes to a WR as compared to the margin of error given by a big, physical TE? I think not.


Basically you're praying on hopes and dreams but I'll tell you something, Jerry Rice is not coming back, get over it. If the 49ers can add a guy like Garcon to the mix for this team, that's basically the best case scenario in terms of overall talent and salary cap flexibility. Then they can take a shot later on in the draft on a guy with #1 potential such as Hill or Streeter who will then have time to develop, get coached up and hopefully turn into something amazing in a year or 2.


If the 49ers have Josh Morgan as the #3 guy, Kyle Williams as #4 and a rookie as the #5 receiver, they'll be doing pretty well.
[ Edited by Phoenix49ers on Feb 21, 2012 at 10:56 PM ]
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Originally posted by sfout:
Originally posted by ImaMod:
yay a bunch of #2 WRs = logic. Ok I think I get it now lets ignore one of the biggest reasons we lost in the NFC championship game and stock pile #2 and #3 WRs and waste a first round pick on something we already have and dont need

We lost the game for a lot of other reasons before the lack of WR catches affect the outcome.....
1. Lack of execution or sticking to the game plan
2. defense or specifically Rogers got torched by Cruz for an entire half then when we adjusted to it they torched us with another wideout
3. Alex smith falling back into a less risk taking mindset / possible result of play calling or the WRs not able to get open
4. Kyle Williams 2 terrible turnovers
5. the utter lack of depth at WR after crabtree.

Who is this magical #1 WR that we would draft at #30th overall? I already posted the statistical history of drafting a 1st round WR gives us a 1 in 4 chance at drafting a complete bust, a 1 in 4 chance of drafting a "randy moss like #1" and 2 in 4 shot at drafting a #2 or #3 talent. its a complete crapshoot when picking a WR in the early rounds

The top free agent talent was drafted all over the board or not at all.

VJAX: Round 2 - 61st pick
Wayne: Round 1 - 30th pick
Welker - Undrafted
Desean - Round 2 - 49th pick
Bowe - round 1 - 23rd pick
Stevie - round 7 - 224th pick
Colston - round 7 - 252th pick
Wallace - round 3 - 84th pick

Rather then take a shot with an unknown prospect at #30 It makes so much more sense for us to draft a TE familiar with the system, subsequently allowing for more 2TE sets in our offense and giving Alex another playmaker on offense while looking to the mid to late rounds for WR depth and possibly free agency should Baalke and Harbaugh deem it necessary

As it stands right now Crabtree was "#1 receiver" for the whole year right up until he disappeared after that TD against the saints and unless Harbaugh goes back on his word of re-signing morgan we at best need a #2 and #4 WR

1-Crabtree
2-???????
3-Morgan
4-???????
5-Williams

Morgan is probably the most dependable #3 you can imagine, he was on pace to replicate his 2010 #s before injury of 45 catches for 650+ yards 3 TDs. Anyone saying that isn't solid production for at minimum a #3 WIdeout is just being stubborn and unreasonable

Through nearly an entire season Williams showed nothing to say he should stay on the roster or really be cut. Not counting his 56 yard catch and run against the rams he had 19 catches for 190 yards, not exactly astounding #s but what was more important that 14 of those catches resulted in 1st downs, also had 8 catches on 3rd down 2 of them resulted in TDs. The guy is worthy of the #5 maybe #4 gig but I can easily see that we can find an upgrade.

Crabtree statistically has shown that he is going to be at minimum an 80 catch for 950-1050 yard receiver which according to that ESPN article I posted is one of the requirements for a #1 receiver(only 17 1st round receivers since 2001 have posted multiple 1000 yard seasons) and Crabtree looks capable of doing so for years to come.

Something I feel compelled to remind everyone is that Crabtree is just 24 years old and he will get better!


Vincent Jackson first 5 seasons looked like this.
2005. 8 games 3 catches for 59 yards 0 TDs
2006: 16 games 27 catches for 453 yards 6 TDs
2007: 16 games 41 catches for 623 yards 3 TDs
then he hit his pro-bowl form with Rivers
and had 2 seasons 59+ catches 1,100+ yards 7+TDs

Crabtree's first 3 seasons
2009: 11 games 48 catches 625 yards 2 TDs
2010: 16 games 55 catches 741 yards 6 TDs
2011: 15 games 72 catches 874 yards 4 TDs

Every year he has improved and if he had been healthy for the whole season he would've easily pushed for 1,000 yards. Hes also done this with a QB carousel of Alex Smith to Shaun Hill to Alex Smith to Troy Smith to Alex Smith, imagine if he had the same QB for every single game. They've also said Alex and Crabtree still lack chemistry, can you imagine what they'd be like if they "had" chemistry!?!?!

You never know if Crabtree is going to explode the way Vincent Jackson did and we just need to stay faithful that the upward trend that Crabtree has displayed holds true.

My re-rank of the 2009 1st round WR class
1. Hakeem Nicks
2. Michael Crabtree
3. Percy Harvin
4. Jeremy Maclin
5. Kenny Britt
6. Darrius Heyward-Bey

After 3 years we have the 2nd best WR out of the 1st round selections, I like the odds of success that he'll get better. We have a #1 on our roster and we just need a #2 that can rotate with Josh Morgan, then we need to look at our depth and find players to compete with Kyle Williams.

No we dont. lol not even close
Hakeem Nicks is a beast, Kenny Britt is on his way and was great this season before he got injured, Maclin is very good, DHB was more productive this year than Crabtree, Percy Harvins been more productive
I dont think you can say Crabtree is better than any of those guys
We dont have a #1 on our roster, Crabtree is not even close to what he was picked to be, but I hope he breaks outt his year

I still would rather take a WR like Rueben Randlem whos projected so far to be a late 1st rounder, over Coby Fleener if he is there.
6'4 and runs 4.4 to 4.5

I know Im not going to change your mind about drafting Fleener and you're not going to change my mind so I guses this argument is pointless
[ Edited by ImaMod on Feb 21, 2012 at 10:57 PM ]
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