DeForest Buckner DL - Oregon

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by joaosoarrs99:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

I don't think anyone thinks Simpson is a #1 Torrey smith and smelter will be the top dogs...I think grabbing a player like Thomas or fuller in the 2nd would be nice. Minus Treadwell I don't see any real studs at WR in this draft. FA is always a option as well for WR.

Buckner is a beast I'd be happy with him.

IMO this class WR studs are Boyd and Doctson.

Pass on Boyd doctson is pretty good but I think he just got hurt?

Treadwell is #1 IMO he reminds me of Dez...as long as he stays healthy he will be a fine wr.

Living in Mississippi, I've watch Treadwell a ton and he is no Dez NY. I would compare him more to Alshon Jeffrey, which isn't a bad comparison, but I consider Dez the most athletic WR in the NFL. Treadwell doesn't separate as well, but his size makes up for that. I'll take Treadwell, but I could pas on him in the first for another stud player and go after Boyd or Dotson.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by saniner:

Originally posted by 9moon:

Im very much aware that both the Giants and Seattle are under the 4-3 scheme.. but my point is, we picked AA last year with the 15th overall, and now, you are telling me to draft Buckner between the 7the and 12th pick???

If we gonna draft that high, just like last year, we may as well find those PASS RUSHING DEs instead of those "CLOGGERS"..

While it seems redundant, you have to factor that the team lost Smith AND McDonald in one offseason, and while Dial is a great rotational guy, he shouldn't be starting. It wouldn't be a bad idea to get another high potential player to make the d-line elite. Honestly if they sign a guy in FA I'd be all over getting Ogbah to help the pass rush

Totally agree! Look at what Baalke likes long big pass rushers and that's what Buckner and ogbah are...two 6-7 290 DE (dial is 6-6 as well) with Williams as the NT and that line is upgraded for years!

That makes our OLBs jobs much much easier (and the secondary) it all starts in the trenches.

I'm really hoping Trent will go after Bruce Irvin in FA. Landing someone like him will give us more flexibility in the draft and landing someone like Buckner would be an awesome addition.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by 9moon:
Im very much aware that both the Giants and Seattle are under the 4-3 scheme.. but my point is, we picked AA last year with the 15th overall, and now, you are telling me to draft Buckner between the 7the and 12th pick???

If we gonna draft that high, just like last year, we may as well find those PASS RUSHING DEs instead of those "CLOGGERS"..

Actually traded down for 17th pick with bell and a 5th this year

If your aware that they run a 4-3 then why bring it up? You know that's were those teams get there pass rush from the DE where's we get it from the OLB.

AA has been tops among rookie DE is pass rush and is doing well overall in th league. And like I said Buckner has 9.5 sacks which is very good among 3-4 DEs.

Justin smith had 8 sacks at his peak with us was he a bad player??

why is it that you often do not understand my point..

I didnt bring up the 4-3, it was you who brought up the 4-3 scheme of the Giants.. the point i was trying to make is that I DO NOT GET THE LOGIC OF DRAFTING A DE WHO CAN NOT RUSH THE PASSER..

this is no difference than your OLD posts in regards to Gabbert, and how you didn't wanna give him a chance to play and sub in for Kaep... just because Kaep took us to the Super Bowl years ago, and he runs well, it doesn't make him IRREPLACEABLE... and how often you would bring up Gabby's performances at Jagz..

Buckner is not even on my 1st list, all those Oregon D-players are too freakin soft, why do you think they cant win the big one???

Has Dion Jordan done anything?? another "great" Oregon Defender..

Originally posted by 9moon:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by 9moon:

Im very much aware that both the Giants and Seattle are under the 4-3 scheme.. but my point is, we picked AA last year with the 15th overall, and now, you are telling me to draft Buckner between the 7the and 12th pick???

If we gonna draft that high, just like last year, we may as well find those PASS RUSHING DEs instead of those "CLOGGERS"..

Actually traded down for 17th pick with bell and a 5th this year

If your aware that they run a 4-3 then why bring it up? You know that's were those teams get there pass rush from the DE where's we get it from the OLB.

AA has been tops among rookie DE is pass rush and is doing well overall in th league. And like I said Buckner has 9.5 sacks which is very good among 3-4 DEs.

Justin smith had 8 sacks at his peak with us was he a bad player??

why is it that you often do not understand my point..

I didnt bring up the 4-3, it was you who brought up the 4-3 scheme of the Giants.. the point i was trying to make is that I DO NOT GET THE LOGIC OF DRAFTING A DE WHO CAN NOT RUSH THE PASSER..

this is no difference than your OLD posts in regards to Gabbert, and how you didn't wanna give him a chance to play and sub in for Kaep... just because Kaep took us to the Super Bowl years ago, and he runs well, it doesn't make him IRREPLACEABLE... and how often you would bring up Gabby's performances at Jagz..

Buckner is not even on my 1st list, all those Oregon D-players are too freakin soft, why do you think they cant win the big one???

Has Dion Jordan done anything?? another "great" Oregon Defender..

Sus please enlighten us on which DE the niners should pick and why. I'd like to hear both side to the story.

Originally posted by 9moon:

why is it that you often do not understand my point..

I didnt bring up the 4-3, it was you who brought up the 4-3 scheme of the Giants.. the point i was trying to make is that I DO NOT GET THE LOGIC OF DRAFTING A DE WHO CAN NOT RUSH THE PASSER..

this is no difference than your OLD posts in regards to Gabbert, and how you didn't wanna give him a chance to play and sub in for Kaep... just because Kaep took us to the Super Bowl years ago, and he runs well, it doesn't make him IRREPLACEABLE... and how often you would bring up Gabby's performances at Jagz..

Buckner is not even on my 1st list, all those Oregon D-players are too freakin soft, why do you think they cant win the big one???

Has Dion Jordan done anything?? another "great" Oregon Defender..

The job of most 3-4 DEs is to take on multiple gaps and blockers to facilitate the OLB job which is getting to the QB. This is what Justin Smith did it here.

Originally posted by 9moon:
why is it that you often do not understand my point..

I didnt bring up the 4-3, it was you who brought up the 4-3 scheme of the Giants.. the point i was trying to make is that I DO NOT GET THE LOGIC OF DRAFTING A DE WHO CAN NOT RUSH THE PASSER..

this is no difference than your OLD posts in regards to Gabbert, and how you didn't wanna give him a chance to play and sub in for Kaep... just because Kaep took us to the Super Bowl years ago, and he runs well, it doesn't make him IRREPLACEABLE... and how often you would bring up Gabby's performances at Jagz..

Buckner is not even on my 1st list, all those Oregon D-players are too freakin soft, why do you think they cant win the big one???

Has Dion Jordan done anything?? another "great" Oregon Defender..

I think the reason you don't understand his point is because you don't understand our defense.
We run a base 3-4, and sometimes a hybrid 3-3-5 from it.

In both of those defensive formations you have your front 3 lineman going against 5 offensive lineman. That already is an automatic mismatch. Because we are a player short (generally you would blitz an OLB as a pass rusher in this situation aka Lynch) we need those 3 up front to be able to fight through and draw double teams. It is because of that requirement that our DEs aren't generally pass rushers, they lean more towards stopping the run and drawing double teams so our guys behind them can be pass rushers. Have you noticed that Aldon Smith played as an OLB here but now on the Raiders he plays DE? Have you noticed that our team leader in sacks has been a OLB for the last 9+ seasons?
We don't get sacks from our DEs, and if we did it would probably mean we are getting gashed in the run game.

TLDR: If you aren't happy with our pass rush its because of our DL not being able to draw doubles, or our OLBs not being able to rush the passer.

Originally posted by 9moon:
Has Dion Jordan done anything?? another "great" Oregon Defender..

He didn't play Dline he was a linebacker, and his lack of success can be attributed to other reasons.
Jarius Byrd
TJ Ward
Haloti Ngata
AA
Kiko Alonso
Patrick Chung

^
All good Oregon defenders

Originally posted by 9moon:

why is it that you often do not understand my point..

I didnt bring up the 4-3, it was you who brought up the 4-3 scheme of the Giants.. the point i was trying to make is that I DO NOT GET THE LOGIC OF DRAFTING A DE WHO CAN NOT RUSH THE PASSER..

this is no difference than your OLD posts in regards to Gabbert, and how you didn't wanna give him a chance to play and sub in for Kaep... just because Kaep took us to the Super Bowl years ago, and he runs well, it doesn't make him IRREPLACEABLE... and how often you would bring up Gabby's performances at Jagz..

Buckner is not even on my 1st list, all those Oregon D-players are too freakin soft, why do you think they cant win the big one???

Has Dion Jordan done anything?? another "great" Oregon Defender..

Your the one that brought up the giants and Seahawks who run a 4-3 which has there DE rushing the passer all the time not me...not the same schemes man.

And who said he can't rush the passer? He's got 9.5 sacks lol.

What does Blaine have to do with buncker and what this defenses could use?? Now your just running you mouth about whatever...lets keep this about Buckner.

And I don't compare players that played on the same team that's just stupid...Jordan is about 40 Lbs smaller than Buckner.

If you don't like him that's cool...we don't have to agree man.

9moon, I don't mean any disrespect by this, nor am I posting it to create a conflict, but read this

"The nose tackle and the inside linebackers, those are three guys that are very important. But when you go through it, the nose tackle is probably the single-most important guy."— Joe Collier, Denver Broncos assistant (1969–1988), architect of the "Orange Crush Defense".[7]
The defensive line is made up of a nose tackle (NT) and two defensive ends (DEs). Linemen in 3–4 schemes tend to be larger than their 4–3 counterparts to take up more space and guard more territory along the defensive front. As a consequence, many 3–4 defensive linemen begin their NFL careers as 4-3 defensive tackles, as younger players typically do not possess the size, weight, and strength to play on a 3-4 defensive front. They must be strong at the point of attack and are aligned in most cases head-up on an offensive tackle. First and foremost, they must control run gaps. Size and strength become more of a factor for linemen in 3–4 defenses than in 4–3 defenses because they move primarily within the confines of line play and seldom are in space using athletic ability. Ideally 3–4 DEs should weigh 290–315 pounds (132–143 kg) and be able to beat double teams by getting a push.[8]

The 3–4 nose tackle is considered the most physically demanding position in football.[9] His primary responsibility is to control the "A" gaps, the two openings between the center and guards, and not get pushed back into his linebackers. If a running play comes through one of those gaps, he must make the tackle or control what is called the "jump-through"—the guard or center who is trying to get out to the linebackers. The ideal nose tackle has to be much bigger than 4–3 DTs, weighing around 335 pounds or more. An AFC Personnel director used Ted Washington as an example of an ideal nose tackle: "In his prime, Ted Washington was the ideal guy. He was huge, had long arms, and you couldn't budge him. He could hold off a 320-pound lineman with one hand and make the tackle with the other."[9]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3%E2%80%934_defense

Originally posted by Quest4six:

Originally posted by 9moon:

why is it that you often do not understand my point..

I didnt bring up the 4-3, it was you who brought up the 4-3 scheme of the Giants.. the point i was trying to make is that I DO NOT GET THE LOGIC OF DRAFTING A DE WHO CAN NOT RUSH THE PASSER..

this is no difference than your OLD posts in regards to Gabbert, and how you didn't wanna give him a chance to play and sub in for Kaep... just because Kaep took us to the Super Bowl years ago, and he runs well, it doesn't make him IRREPLACEABLE... and how often you would bring up Gabby's performances at Jagz..

Buckner is not even on my 1st list, all those Oregon D-players are too freakin soft, why do you think they cant win the big one???

Has Dion Jordan done anything?? another "great" Oregon Defender..

I think the reason you don't understand his point is because you don't understand our defense.
We run a base 3-4, and sometimes a hybrid 3-3-5 from it.

In both of those defensive formations you have your front 3 lineman going against 5 offensive lineman. That already is an automatic mismatch. Because we are a player short (generally you would blitz an OLB as a pass rusher in this situation aka Lynch) we need those 3 up front to be able to fight through and draw double teams. It is because of that requirement that our DEs aren't generally pass rushers, they lean more towards stopping the run and drawing double teams so our guys behind them can be pass rushers. Have you noticed that Aldon Smith played as an OLB here but now on the Raiders he plays DE? Have you noticed that our team leader in sacks has been a OLB for the last 9+ seasons?
We don't get sacks from our DEs, and if we did it would probably mean we are getting gashed in the run game.

TLDR: If you aren't happy with our pass rush its because of our DL not being able to draw doubles, or our OLBs not being able to rush the passer.

J.J. Watt disagrees with the notion 3-4 DEs don't get sacks. But yes in general your 3-4 DE is supposed to force a double team or hook one so he gets doubled (Justin Smith). It's not that the niners don't want a pass rushing DE though that was their thought for Tank he just didn't live up to there expectations.

Originally posted by Hysterikal:
J.J. Watt disagrees with the notion 3-4 DEs don't get sacks. But yes in general your 3-4 DE is supposed to force a double team or hook one so he gets doubled (Justin Smith). It's not that the niners don't want a pass rushing DE though that was their thought for Tank he just didn't live up to there expectations.

To be fair the Texans use Watt differently then we use our lineman, but yes I agree his is the exception.
Thats also probably why Carradine hasn't looked all that great, it is extremely rare to find a 3-4 DE with the strength and speed combo that would enable them to be a pass rusher.
In fact I would probably say that the best athletes on the field play on the defensive line, especially the ends regardless of the formation.

Originally posted by Hysterikal:

J.J. Watt disagrees with the notion 3-4 DEs don't get sacks. But yes in general your 3-4 DE is supposed to force a double team or hook one so he gets doubled (Justin Smith). It's not that the niners don't want a pass rushing DE though that was their thought for Tank he just didn't live up to there expectations.

The Texans use a 1 gap system while we use a 2 gap system.

In the 3-4 there are 2 variations: the 1 gap and the 2 gap. In a two-gap system, the linemen are charged with tying up two blockers. This allows the linebackers to "flow downhill" and make tackles without shedding blocks.The one gap, on the other hand, distributes the responsibility for gap coverage evenly between the linemen and linebackers.(the bold part is from Wikipedia)

Also JJ Watt is a monster and one of the best defensive players of all history.

Originally posted by JDMathews49ers:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by joaosoarrs99:

Originally posted by NYniner85:
I don't think anyone thinks Simpson is a #1 Torrey smith and smelter will be the top dogs...I think grabbing a player like Thomas or fuller in the 2nd would be nice. Minus Treadwell I don't see any real studs at WR in this draft. FA is always a option as well for WR.

Buckner is a beast I'd be happy with him.

IMO this class WR studs are Boyd and Doctson.

Pass on Boyd doctson is pretty good but I think he just got hurt?

Treadwell is #1 IMO he reminds me of Dez...as long as he stays healthy he will be a fine wr.

Living in Mississippi, I've watch Treadwell a ton and he is no Dez NY. I would compare him more to Alshon Jeffrey, which isn't a bad comparison, but I consider Dez the most athletic WR in the NFL. Treadwell doesn't separate as well, but his size makes up for that. I'll take Treadwell, but I could pas on him in the first for another stud player and go after Boyd or Dotson.

Thanks for the input I don't get to watch him as much as you that's for sure...but from what I've seen he seems a lot faster than Jeffrey.

OH and I think OBJ and Julio Jones would have something to say about being the most athletic WR in the NFL

Here's what CBS sports said about Treadwell:



STRENGTHS: One of the most physically gifted receivers at the college level even when he was a freshman. Even when covered, he's not covered due to his size, hand strength and catching radius to physically dominate defensive backs. Treadwell always picks up more yardage than he should after the catch due to his power and athleticism

WEAKNESSES: Recovered from gruesome knee injury in 2014, but pre-draft medical checks will be key to final grade with many teams. Although he won't be a receiver who consistently creates separation, he doesn't need to with his body control and ballskills.



COMPARES TO: Dez Bryant, Cowboys - Treadwell shows a Bryant-like skillset with his size and athleticism combination to be a mismatch against cornerbacks on the outside.

Originally posted by joaosoarrs99:
The Texans use a 1 gap system while we use a 2 gap system.

In the 3-4 there are 2 variations: the 1 gap and the 2 gap. In a two-gap system, the linemen are charged with tying up two blockers. This allows the linebackers to "flow downhill" and make tackles without shedding blocks.The one gap, on the other hand, distributes the responsibility for gap coverage evenly between the linemen and linebackers.(the bold part is from Wikipedia)

Also JJ Watt is a monster and one of the best defensive players of all history.

And we passed on him...