Patrick Mahomes QB

By the way, for those people that think the Air Raid isn't "NFL style", please tell me how the below was not an Air Raid offense:



Tom Brady threw 62 times in what was virtually an Air Raid offense. Yet if a college kid throws 62 times in an Air Raid, its the touch of death

Originally posted by SunDevilNiner79:
By the way, for those people that think the Air Raid isn't "NFL style", please tell me how the below was not an Air Raid offense:



Tom Brady threw 62 times in what was virtually an Air Raid offense. Yet if a college kid throws 62 times in an Air Raid, its the touch of death

Shhhhhhh! You're going to rob lazy internet pundits of one of their favorite canned opinions! Every NFL offensive playbook has elements of the spread, because... IT WORKS. The defenses have too much time to prep for it if it's all you have, but it still helps ID coverage and get WRs open. Why's that a bad thing, again?

Originally posted by WRATHman44:
Shhhhhhh! You're going to rob lazy internet pundits of one of their favorite canned opinions! Every NFL offensive playbook has elements of the spread, because... IT WORKS. The defenses have too much time to prep for it if it's all you have, but it still helps ID coverage and get WRs open. Why's that a bad thing, again?

Yep, it just drives me completely crazy people keep using terminology that is mostly meaningless.

And the worst to me is people believe there are college kids running "nfl pro systems". Whats considered pro style and what isn't is such a blurred line, but people harp on it like its critical.

How was Mariota's offense "pro style"? He looks like he is doing good. RW developed in an air raid offense. Derek Carr threw in an air raid type offense.

And now people are telling me that Peterman pays in a pro style offense. I've never seen an offense move the QB pocket so much to cut a field in half. But somehow designed roll outs on 1/3 of passes is "pro style"???

They are all crutch terms. I once attacked Air Raid because people fell in love with just stats (Remember Colt Brennan? I was an early disbeliever). And the thing with Air Raid is it incorporated West Coast short timing passes to replace the run game, so a weak arm QB with a decent release can be productive. The QB would dump off 5 5 yard passes that were a sure thing and a WR would break it for 60 yards. so you'd have a QB that went 5/5 for 80 yards and a TD, and yet did not make one tough throw vs a QB that went 2 for 4, 24 yards but made a killer anticipatory throw outside the hashes 20 yards down the field.

And yet 7-8 years ago in this forum I remember being told "well the QB took what the defense gave him, so he is really smart!" (funny how my complaint that Peterman gets credit for a shovel pass going 50 yards is met with the same response). And much of the Mahomes attacks are from Peterman supporters.

So the knock was always whether an Air Raid QB really had the arm strength to throw contested throws on tough routes. And thats the one thing Mahomes is ahead of the rest of the draft class on.

Originally posted by SunDevilNiner79:

Originally posted by WRATHman44:
Shhhhhhh! You're going to rob lazy internet pundits of one of their favorite canned opinions! Every NFL offensive playbook has elements of the spread, because... IT WORKS. The defenses have too much time to prep for it if it's all you have, but it still helps ID coverage and get WRs open. Why's that a bad thing, again?

Yep, it just drives me completely crazy people keep using terminology that is mostly meaningless.

And the worst to me is people believe there are college kids running "nfl pro systems". Whats considered pro style and what isn't is such a blurred line, but people harp on it like its critical.

How was Mariota's offense "pro style"? He looks like he is doing good. RW developed in an air raid offense. Derek Carr threw in an air raid type offense.

And now people are telling me that Peterman pays in a pro style offense. I've never seen an offense move the QB pocket so much to cut a field in half. But somehow designed roll outs on 1/3 of passes is "pro style"???

They are all crutch terms. I once attacked Air Raid because people fell in love with just stats (Remember Colt Brennan? I was an early disbeliever). And the thing with Air Raid is it incorporated West Coast short timing passes to replace the run game, so a weak arm QB with a decent release can be productive. The QB would dump off 5 5 yard passes that were a sure thing and a WR would break it for 60 yards. so you'd have a QB that went 5/5 for 80 yards and a TD, and yet did not make one tough throw vs a QB that went 2 for 4, 24 yards but made a killer anticipatory throw outside the hashes 20 yards down the field.

And yet 7-8 years ago in this forum I remember being told "well the QB took what the defense gave him, so he is really smart!" (funny how my complaint that Peterman gets credit for a shovel pass going 50 yards is met with the same response). And much of the Mahomes attacks are from Peterman supporters.

So the knock was always whether an Air Raid QB really had the arm strength to throw contested throws on tough routes. And thats the one thing Mahomes is ahead of the rest of the draft class on.

I agree completely. Air Raid QBs haven't succeeded in the NFL because most of them were weak-armed robots. Mahomes is neither. Granted, footwork is de-emphasized in the Air Raid, but it kills me that WCO proponents rail against a system that emphasizes ball placement for YAC and getting the ball out quickly.

Originally posted by jersey49er:

Very true about Cousins so with that point being said the niners might not actually grab a QB until the 3-4 round..

I'd love mahomes in the 3rd but I think he's getting overdrafted...I could see SD or pitt going after him

Originally posted by WRATHman44:
That scouting report is trash. They report him at 6'4" (he's just under 6'2"), they list his passing instincts as poor, they ding him slight on off the field concerns for no reason, and they have his "release quicks" at a merely decent 8.5, even though he can go from sprinting with the ball fully tucked to his body to throwing an accurate 15 yard pass in one step. The combined traits that go into passing instincts are all garbage. His football IQ is well above 7.0, and his pre snap reads are on point, not 6.5. He's on record admitting in film sessions that the proper, carbon-copy read on many plays is the checkdown, but that he was given license by his coaches to make a play down the field if he liked a matchup and he could move the safety away from his target. That's not a bad read or low IQ, that's following coaching and making it work, and he made it work most of the time. There's so many damn internet scouts out there publishing sh!t, and not enough of them do their homework.

Agree. I really like Mahomes, but I personally don't think I'd grab him at #34... I'd really consider it depending on top players on the board, especially if we can move back from 2 and add another 2nd. I think Mahomes has insane potential that Shanahan could unlock, but I lean a little more towards Peterman

Originally posted by SunDevilNiner79:

Originally posted by WRATHman44:
Shhhhhhh! You're going to rob lazy internet pundits of one of their favorite canned opinions! Every NFL offensive playbook has elements of the spread, because... IT WORKS. The defenses have too much time to prep for it if it's all you have, but it still helps ID coverage and get WRs open. Why's that a bad thing, again?

Yep, it just drives me completely crazy people keep using terminology that is mostly meaningless.

And the worst to me is people believe there are college kids running "nfl pro systems". Whats considered pro style and what isn't is such a blurred line, but people harp on it like its critical.

How was Mariota's offense "pro style"? He looks like he is doing good. RW developed in an air raid offense. Derek Carr threw in an air raid type offense.

And now people are telling me that Peterman pays in a pro style offense. I've never seen an offense move the QB pocket so much to cut a field in half. But somehow designed roll outs on 1/3 of passes is "pro style"???

They are all crutch terms. I once attacked Air Raid because people fell in love with just stats (Remember Colt Brennan? I was an early disbeliever). And the thing with Air Raid is it incorporated West Coast short timing passes to replace the run game, so a weak arm QB with a decent release can be productive. The QB would dump off 5 5 yard passes that were a sure thing and a WR would break it for 60 yards. so you'd have a QB that went 5/5 for 80 yards and a TD, and yet did not make one tough throw vs a QB that went 2 for 4, 24 yards but made a killer anticipatory throw outside the hashes 20 yards down the field.

And yet 7-8 years ago in this forum I remember being told "well the QB took what the defense gave him, so he is really smart!" (funny how my complaint that Peterman gets credit for a shovel pass going 50 yards is met with the same response). And much of the Mahomes attacks are from Peterman supporters.

So the knock was always whether an Air Raid QB really had the arm strength to throw contested throws on tough routes. And thats the one thing Mahomes is ahead of the rest of the draft class on.

Agree.
I've always thought that was the lamest of knocks on QBs "They played in a gimmick offense" -- I'm sorry you don't like the system? Was he successful in it? Did he play well? Why knock a guy for doing what he is expected to?

you love him but wouldn't take him in the second? That means you don't really believe in him.

getting a franchise QB in the second round is an absolute steal!

idc if we use the 2nd overall pick on a QB, if it turns out to be a franchise QB, then that is all that matters! A franchise QB that can keep you consistently relevant for a superbowl is worth more than any other position by far. Myles Garret will never get a Superbowl unless they get competent QB play. Look at the Texans for instance, even with a top defense and one of the best DEs ever, they barely break .500 lol

I would love Watson at 2, but if Kyle thinks someone else can be a franchise QB, take them at any pick.

Drafting a player at a "Value" spot isn't going to always work because different teams have different boards and different needs. if a player is available and you think he can make a difference, you take him.

Originally posted by tankle104:
you love him but wouldn't take him in the second? That means you don't really believe in him.

getting a franchise QB in the second round is an absolute steal!

idc if we use the 2nd overall pick on a QB, if it turns out to be a franchise QB, then that is all that matters! A franchise QB that can keep you consistently relevant for a superbowl is worth more than any other position by far. Myles Garret will never get a Superbowl unless they get competent QB play. Look at the Texans for instance, even with a top defense and one of the best DEs ever, they barely break .500 lol

I would love Watson at 2, but if Kyle thinks someone else can be a franchise QB, take them at any pick.

Drafting a player at a "Value" spot isn't going to always work because different teams have different boards and different needs. if a player is available and you think he can make a difference, you take him.

*I really like him* I believe he's going to be great with the right coach, veteran qb, and time spent observing.. I'd rather build the rest of the team. My top needs for next year's team are edge rush (leo) and ZWR. We got Hoyer to mentor and bridge the gap.. I'm hoping for Peterman in the 3rd because I see a lot of potential in him, but it's different potential than Mahomes. I also am not sure I want to take a QB in the second when we're supposedly getting Kirk Cousins next year. I wouldn't be disappointed with Mahomes at all, I just know there's other 2nd rounders I prefer -- ones with 1st round value, but team's draft to their needs. Some guys fall, some get drafted early.. that's just how it goes.

Originally posted by SunDevilNiner79:

Yep, it just drives me completely crazy people keep using terminology that is mostly meaningless.

And the worst to me is people believe there are college kids running "nfl pro systems". Whats considered pro style and what isn't is such a blurred line, but people harp on it like its critical.

How was Mariota's offense "pro style"? He looks like he is doing good. RW developed in an air raid offense. Derek Carr threw in an air raid type offense.

And now people are telling me that Peterman pays in a pro style offense. I've never seen an offense move the QB pocket so much to cut a field in half. But somehow designed roll outs on 1/3 of passes is "pro style"???

They are all crutch terms. I once attacked Air Raid because people fell in love with just stats (Remember Colt Brennan? I was an early disbeliever). And the thing with Air Raid is it incorporated West Coast short timing passes to replace the run game, so a weak arm QB with a decent release can be productive. The QB would dump off 5 5 yard passes that were a sure thing and a WR would break it for 60 yards. so you'd have a QB that went 5/5 for 80 yards and a TD, and yet did not make one tough throw vs a QB that went 2 for 4, 24 yards but made a killer anticipatory throw outside the hashes 20 yards down the field.

And yet 7-8 years ago in this forum I remember being told "well the QB took what the defense gave him, so he is really smart!" (funny how my complaint that Peterman gets credit for a shovel pass going 50 yards is met with the same response). And much of the Mahomes attacks are from Peterman supporters.

So the knock was always whether an Air Raid QB really had the arm strength to throw contested throws on tough routes. And thats the one thing Mahomes is ahead of the rest of the draft class on.

This..hit it on the spot

Originally posted by 808niner4lyphe:

Originally posted by SunDevilNiner79:

Yep, it just drives me completely crazy people keep using terminology that is mostly meaningless.

And the worst to me is people believe there are college kids running "nfl pro systems". Whats considered pro style and what isn't is such a blurred line, but people harp on it like its critical.

How was Mariota's offense "pro style"? He looks like he is doing good. RW developed in an air raid offense. Derek Carr threw in an air raid type offense.

And now people are telling me that Peterman pays in a pro style offense. I've never seen an offense move the QB pocket so much to cut a field in half. But somehow designed roll outs on 1/3 of passes is "pro style"???

They are all crutch terms. I once attacked Air Raid because people fell in love with just stats (Remember Colt Brennan? I was an early disbeliever). And the thing with Air Raid is it incorporated West Coast short timing passes to replace the run game, so a weak arm QB with a decent release can be productive. The QB would dump off 5 5 yard passes that were a sure thing and a WR would break it for 60 yards. so you'd have a QB that went 5/5 for 80 yards and a TD, and yet did not make one tough throw vs a QB that went 2 for 4, 24 yards but made a killer anticipatory throw outside the hashes 20 yards down the field.

And yet 7-8 years ago in this forum I remember being told "well the QB took what the defense gave him, so he is really smart!" (funny how my complaint that Peterman gets credit for a shovel pass going 50 yards is met with the same response). And much of the Mahomes attacks are from Peterman supporters.

So the knock was always whether an Air Raid QB really had the arm strength to throw contested throws on tough routes. And thats the one thing Mahomes is ahead of the rest of the draft class on.

This..hit it on the spot

Yep. Beware SunDevil, the love for Peterman from some is crazy, still trying to figure out exactly why. I know I'd take Mahomes all day everyday over him for damn sure, but, we'll let the field be the judge of who becomes the better pro

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by jersey49er:
Very true about Cousins so with that point being said the niners might not actually grab a QB until the 3-4 round..

I'd love mahomes in the 3rd but I think he's getting overdrafted...I could see SD or pitt going after him

Yeah a lot of teams that have older QBs should be looking at him, I think he can play in any scheme just needs to sit and learn a yr or 2 so like you said SD or Pittsburgh make sense, just like Arizona, G-men, Texans (assuming they trade for Romo), Saints or even KC all should be thinking of drafting him..

Originally posted by 49erInTheMidwest:

Originally posted by tankle104:
you love him but wouldn't take him in the second? That means you don't really believe in him.

getting a franchise QB in the second round is an absolute steal!

idc if we use the 2nd overall pick on a QB, if it turns out to be a franchise QB, then that is all that matters! A franchise QB that can keep you consistently relevant for a superbowl is worth more than any other position by far. Myles Garret will never get a Superbowl unless they get competent QB play. Look at the Texans for instance, even with a top defense and one of the best DEs ever, they barely break .500 lol

I would love Watson at 2, but if Kyle thinks someone else can be a franchise QB, take them at any pick.

Drafting a player at a "Value" spot isn't going to always work because different teams have different boards and different needs. if a player is available and you think he can make a difference, you take him.

*I really like him* I believe he's going to be great with the right coach, veteran qb, and time spent observing.. I'd rather build the rest of the team. My top needs for next year's team are edge rush (leo) and ZWR. We got Hoyer to mentor and bridge the gap.. I'm hoping for Peterman in the 3rd because I see a lot of potential in him, but it's different potential than Mahomes. I also am not sure I want to take a QB in the second when we're supposedly getting Kirk Cousins next year. I wouldn't be disappointed with Mahomes at all, I just know there's other 2nd rounders I prefer -- ones with 1st round value, but team's draft to their needs. Some guys fall, some get drafted early.. that's just how it goes.

If you really believed in any of these Qbs, to the point where they could be top Qbs in this league, you should want to take a QB with whatever pick it is necessary. If we find our QBOTF, then Cousins isn't coming here.

I personally think there is a ton of potential pro bowlers in this draft, but if Watson/Trubisky/whoever is going to be a pro bowler and lead our team to the playoffs every year, then I'd rather have that over anyone. I'm just saying if Kyle/Lynch believe in a QB in this draft, use whatever picks necessary to land him. Building up a team is a hell of a lot easier when you have a franchise QB.

Originally posted by SunDevilNiner79:
By the way, for those people that think the Air Raid isn't "NFL style", please tell me how the below was not an Air Raid offense:



Tom Brady threw 62 times in what was virtually an Air Raid offense. Yet if a college kid throws 62 times in an Air Raid, its the touch of death

Patriots are a bad example...their offense is super complex. It takes the best part of every successful offense in the last 20 years and incorporates it strategically depending on matchup.

Originally posted by jcs:

Patriots are a bad example...their offense is super complex. It takes the best part of every successful offense in the last 20 years and incorporates it strategically depending on matchup.

How was the offense complex? They ran 4 wide+ , limited RB limited TE have pass with short routes, It was a lot of typical air raid routes...

Amendola and Welker and White are the ideal players for an air raid