Quinnen Williams, DT Alabama

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by genus49:
Once again...if Bosa was a much weaker prospect at DE then all this makes sense.

Fact is while QW is a better DT prospect than Bosa is a DE prospect, they're both excellent prospects overall and their grades are in the same ballpark. When that happens you go with the need, positional value, positional cost - all of those favor Bosa.

exactly!

Originally posted by tjd808185:

Originally posted by random49er:
You see no need to have 2 superb DTs youycanove around the same rotation?

One will render the other one useless?

Does anyone else remember Stubblefield's sack totals once BY arrived? One will eat the doubles, the other will get 1-1. It's not a bad scenario though I just think there's more potential with Bosa.

Agree. That 1994 team was the weakest defense out of all the 5 super bowl defenses we had, in my opinion. You need a Deion or another Sherman back there to give the DT's time to sack the QB. While at edge, you still need the DB's but now if you add Bosa, *and* with Buckner already in place, you multiply the effect of the edge rusher drafted vs. the DT drafted. I love QB's who get hit blindside, there is a tremendous potential for a turnover in that instance. Turnover >>>> vs Sack, any day.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by genus49:
Once again...if Bosa was a much weaker prospect at DE then all this makes sense.

Fact is while QW is a better DT prospect than Bosa is a DE prospect, they're both excellent prospects overall and their grades are in the same ballpark. When that happens you go with the need, positional value, positional cost - all of those favor Bosa.

exactly!

Like choosing between a Ferrari and a Lambo. How can you go wrong. In this case I prefer the Ferrari (Bosa) but I won't be upset if I end up with the Lambo.

Originally posted by CatchMaster80:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by genus49:
Once again...if Bosa was a much weaker prospect at DE then all this makes sense.

Fact is while QW is a better DT prospect than Bosa is a DE prospect, they're both excellent prospects overall and their grades are in the same ballpark. When that happens you go with the need, positional value, positional cost - all of those favor Bosa.

exactly!

Like choosing between a Ferrari and a Lambo. How can you go wrong. In this case I prefer the Ferrari (Bosa) but I won't be upset if I end up with the Lambo.

I agree. I think we're in a great situation either way, just personal preference and really more looking ahead to the status of the team like 4-5 years from now.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by marc1_007:
Quinnen is my preference but by your reckoning, shouldn't Josh Allen be the top prospect then considering he produced better numbers all around in one season than Bosa's entire OSU career and he did this without any one player on that Kentucky front being good enough to be game planned for, so you knew where the pressure is going to come from, as well as spending almost half the time in coverage.

I'm a film guy but doesn't these numbers suggest that Bosa might be just a bit allergic to tackling.

Allen (2018) 88 tackles, 21.5 TFL, 17.0 sacks, 5 forced fumbles, 1 int.
Bosa (career) 77 tackles, 29 TFL, 17.5 sacks, 2 forced fumbles, 0 int.
Allen (career) 220 tackles, 42 TFL, 31.5 sacks, 11 forced fumbles, 1 int

Nope, Jaylon Ferguson should be

Freguson career: 187 tackles, TFL 67.5, 45 sacks

FWIW Allen wasn't a DE he was a LB so I'd expect him to have more tackles and Ints.

Josh Allen plays in the SEC so its no comparison really, plus I'm sure everyone would like an LB that's has that many sacks, and TFL as well as the forced fumbles, so what does that matter he's a pass rusher that's all that matters.

Originally posted by genus49:
Absolutely not.

My point was strictly to show that even at an early point in Donald's career he was beasting. So the idea that QW is a better player at the same stage of their careers is flawed. Williams is simply bigger. That doesn't always mean better.

And Josh Allen wasn't getting his production the same way as Donald or Bosa. He's a good player but a lot of his sacks came due to his versatility and stuff that wouldn't fly in the NFL. It's why I was really hoping to see him at the senior bowl to show what he can do when the other players know he's going to rush the passer.

You can get by with speed in the NFL but you can't get by with just speed and be a dominant player. College production isn't a perfect recipe for NFL success. Jarvis Jones led the SEC in sacks and is out of the NFL after a few years I believe. I think Allen has a bright future ahead of him but he's not the right fit for us. At least not at #2 overall.

Plus when you look at snap counts Allen played more than twice the amount of snaps than Bosa played and yes while injury was part of that for this season(where technically Nick was averaging 1.33 sacks per game which would've given him around 17+ for the year if he could keep that up) even in 2017 when he was fully healthy Allen was getting way more playing time. Which is why comparing their career stats is silly.

Almost half of those snaps were in coverage and I'm not sure what you were watching but he used more than just speed to get by the Tackles plus if you want to get technical most of Bosa's sacks come from the hand swipe on his rip move (great hand usage but if you nullify that move what else has he got).

But that's besides the point Josh Allen is only my second choice after Quinnen Williams, I just wanted to make a point as to you using Donalds sack numbers when he had nobody else on the D-line as proof that he was better than Quinnen, which might well be true but, you always throw shade at anyone who uses sack numbers or production to criticise Bosa,

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Here are all of Quinnen Williams sacks from 2018 (excluding the citadel game, because.. who cares) pic.twitter.com/FL1AnN1ouT

— Ryan McCrystal (@Ryan_McCrystal) April 10, 2019

No strip sack turnovers though.

Originally posted by marc1_007:

Originally posted by genus49:
Absolutely not.

My point was strictly to show that even at an early point in Donald's career he was beasting. So the idea that QW is a better player at the same stage of their careers is flawed. Williams is simply bigger. That doesn't always mean better.

And Josh Allen wasn't getting his production the same way as Donald or Bosa. He's a good player but a lot of his sacks came due to his versatility and stuff that wouldn't fly in the NFL. It's why I was really hoping to see him at the senior bowl to show what he can do when the other players know he's going to rush the passer.

You can get by with speed in the NFL but you can't get by with just speed and be a dominant player. College production isn't a perfect recipe for NFL success. Jarvis Jones led the SEC in sacks and is out of the NFL after a few years I believe. I think Allen has a bright future ahead of him but he's not the right fit for us. At least not at #2 overall.

Plus when you look at snap counts Allen played more than twice the amount of snaps than Bosa played and yes while injury was part of that for this season(where technically Nick was averaging 1.33 sacks per game which would've given him around 17+ for the year if he could keep that up) even in 2017 when he was fully healthy Allen was getting way more playing time. Which is why comparing their career stats is silly.

Almost half of those snaps were in coverage and I'm not sure what you were watching but he used more than just speed to get by the Tackles plus if you want to get technical most of Bosa's sacks come from the hand swipe on his rip move (great hand usage but if you nullify that move what else has he got).

But that's besides the point Josh Allen is only my second choice after Quinnen Williams, I just wanted to make a point as to you using Donalds sack numbers when he had nobody else on the D-line as proof that he was better than Quinnen, which might well be true but, you always throw shade at anyone who uses sack numbers or production to criticise Bosa,

It's not throwing shade, it's putting context on things.

Allen's drops into coverage also help him get sacks so you can't have your cake and want to eat it too. Linebackers just due to design are easier to get matchups with.

Donald playing DT his ability to get clean looks just isn't the same as an off the ball linebacker. So when he doesn't have talent around him it's much harder for him to make impact plays from the inside. There is a reason you don't see huge sack numbers from DTs.

I get the point you were trying to make but I don't think it's valid. So you trying to flip my own argument on me isn't gonna fly. My mention of sacks for Donald was simply to show where he was as a sophmore as I know that's the stat that gets people hard around here. The original argument was that QW was more impressive than Donald at their respective careers coming into the draft and I don't agree with that.

Donald fell way lower than he should've especially after dominating the senior bowl and the combine the way he did. He went under the radar because of his smaller size but his production was top notch even at a younger age than Quinnen.

So your response showing Allen should be ranked ahead of Bosa due to his production when Allen had 4 years in college...with his best year being the 4th one isn't matching up to the point.

Originally posted by marc1_007:
Almost half of those snaps were in coverage and I'm not sure what you were watching but he used more than just speed to get by the Tackles plus if you want to get technical most of Bosa's sacks come from the hand swipe on his rip move (great hand usage but if you nullify that move what else has he got).

But that's besides the point Josh Allen is only my second choice after Quinnen Williams, I just wanted to make a point as to you using Donalds sack numbers when he had nobody else on the D-line as proof that he was better than Quinnen, which might well be true but, you always throw shade at anyone who uses sack numbers or production to criticise Bosa,

https://www.49erswebzone.com/commentary/2055-film-room-draft-preview-ohio-state-edge-nick/

Pick Quinnen Williams and the next stop is the Super Bowl....

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Here are all of Quinnen Williams sacks from 2018 (excluding the citadel game, because.. who cares) pic.twitter.com/FL1AnN1ouT

— Ryan McCrystal (@Ryan_McCrystal) April 10, 2019

Gun to your head who do you want between Q and Bosa?

Originally posted by tjd808185:
Does anyone else remember Stubblefield's sack totals once BY arrived? One will eat the doubles, the other will get 1-1. It's not a bad scenario though I just think there's more potential with Bosa.

I remember Stubby outplayed BY, but that defense was unique in how the DT lined up.

When it was time to attack, they keyed into the gap and lined up almost sideways to shoot the center guard gaps. Both of them could simply beat the offense with first step. Any given down RBs had to make the first guy miss behind the LOS.

Originally posted by Giedi:
Agree. That 1994 team was the weakest defense out of all the 5 super bowl defenses we had, in my opinion. You need a Deion or another Sherman back there to give the DT's time to sack the QB. While at edge, you still need the DB's but now if you add Bosa, *and* with Buckner already in place, you multiply the effect of the edge rusher drafted vs. the DT drafted. I love QB's who get hit blindside, there is a tremendous potential for a turnover in that instance. Turnover >>>> vs Sack, any day.

I don't agree with this They had one REALLY bad game before Dion was settled in. Post Dion that was different animal. Statistically they were a better defense 88. They also did not bring back Tim Harris until late that season if i recall correctly. He was our oh crap its the playoffs and we need a pass rusher that we kept on speed dial. Tim Harris gave that team 6 or 7 sacks to close out the year and in the post seasons. He was average over a sack a game in the playoffs and real world 3rd down pressure. Tim Harris's playoff run was better then any post season run we got Aldon Smith. When you factor in that team scored at will that seasons, and DID give up a ton of garbage time points its hard to make a case they were WORSE then 88 team.

From a flexibility standpoint, peak 94 is one of the better "elite" defenses of the NFL. They were not a shut down defense, but was any team other then 82 really a shutdown defense over the course of a season.

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Here are all of Quinnen Williams sacks from 2018 (excluding the citadel game, because.. who cares) pic.twitter.com/FL1AnN1ouT

— Ryan McCrystal (@Ryan_McCrystal) April 10, 2019

Gun to your head who do you want between Q and Bosa?

Q