The Fatal Fourway: Wilson, Lance, Fields, and Jones; Enter and declare your allegiance!

Originally posted by jcs:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dhp318:

Originally posted by Joecool:
Someone tell me how Mac Jones makes sense. I 100% respect his QB ability, but can't we get a Mac Jones in free agency practically any year we want? According to the jump we made in the draft and what we gave up, tell me how this makes sense for Mac Jones. It's like giving up three 1st rounders for Kirk Cousins. We could have just done that and I'm sure MN would have done it.

Who is the Mac Jones that is available in free agency every year?

You don't think MN would trade us Kirk Cousins for three 1st rounders? You don't think we could have gotten Tom Brady for three 1st rounders back in 2019?

We can get a Mac Jones for three 1st rounders any year we want because NFL Teams would be wiling to trade that type of QB in a heart beat for three 1st rounders. You don't give up that much draft capital for a QB who's main strength is that he can read defenses...in college...

Cousins is 32. Jones is 22.

Cousins is also making $33 million a season and Jones will be on a rookie deal.

Only need 1 year to win a SB. Ask the Bucs that.

F three 1st rounders, a Mac Jones can be had any year. How often will you find a 4.4 QB who can throw like Fields?

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by jcs:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dhp318:

Originally posted by Joecool:
Someone tell me how Mac Jones makes sense. I 100% respect his QB ability, but can't we get a Mac Jones in free agency practically any year we want? According to the jump we made in the draft and what we gave up, tell me how this makes sense for Mac Jones. It's like giving up three 1st rounders for Kirk Cousins. We could have just done that and I'm sure MN would have done it.

Who is the Mac Jones that is available in free agency every year?

You don't think MN would trade us Kirk Cousins for three 1st rounders? You don't think we could have gotten Tom Brady for three 1st rounders back in 2019?

We can get a Mac Jones for three 1st rounders any year we want because NFL Teams would be wiling to trade that type of QB in a heart beat for three 1st rounders. You don't give up that much draft capital for a QB who's main strength is that he can read defenses...in college...

Cousins is 32. Jones is 22.

Cousins is also making $33 million a season and Jones will be on a rookie deal.

Only need 1 year to win a SB. Ask the Bucs that.

F three 1st rounders, a Mac Jones can be had any year. How often will you find a 4.4 QB who can throw like Fields?

Jalen Hurts was had for a 2nd round pick last year and had similar passing numbers. Was a better runner too.

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by thl408:
As of now I'm leaning towards Fields. The 'scheme fit' talk surrounding Mac is pointless and erroneous imo. Erroneous because there wasn't a lot that Mac did in college that SF does in their current offense. Pointless because the rookie will not be asked to play immediately so what's the point of looking for scheme fit? The rookie will get to sit as he learns and as Kyle molds the offense to better fit the abilities of the QB. If the QB can operate from the pocket, Kyle will consider him. But if you are prioritizing scheme fit in your evaluation, that player is Lance. But Lance has way too many big questions - level of competition, lack of experience in big time games (when compared to the Mac/Fields), lack of overall experience. I care very little for his reps on designed QB runs.

My primary concern with Fields is his pocket presence and how he looks blind to the rush at times. I'm not sure how much a QB can improve at this so I'm very wary of it. The other concern I have is how he wants to see the WR open before throwing the pass. I saw a good number of snaps where he waits a tick longer than he needs to. I read that OSU had many option routes and how that could explain it. I think this can be improved with confidence in the play concept which I think Kyle can provide. I didn't consider Wilson because I'm assuming he's going to NYJ.

I don't think it's "scheme fit" with Jones in terms of plays run, so much as it is "pro QB actions" that he has done, in particular, in the pocket.

That said, Fields will enter the NFL with top five arm talent. That doesn't grow on trees. As you said, he's going to sit anyway, which is plenty of time to learn Shanahan's scheme well enough to play.

As for Fields and the issues with anticipation throws, that was Kaepernick's downfall. However, the difference is Fields doesn't have a molasses in January release speed, and Fields can throw with touch as good as anyone. Not to mention he's more accurate.

Look, Kaepernick played just below Pro Bowl level when he was in a good scheme with a good coach and on a good team. Fields is way more polished than Kaepernick, he's way quicker, way more accurate, and he has a much faster release. That is why taking Fields would NOT be anything close to a mistake, and in fact it could pay massive dividends. If Kaepernick can have success, so can Fields, and then some.

That's why, while I STRONGLY believe that QBs rarely improve a lot in terms of the mental aspects (which is why I loved Mahomes so much [I'm perfectly willing to detail what I'm talking about in his thread]), nevertheless, lots of guys have success without every truly mastering that. Transcendent talent and scheme can cover up a lot of flaws, and kill a defense.

Good thoughts. The one area I have Mac over Fields is pocket presence so I agree with the bolded. Other than that, Mac being more 'pro ready' or more of a 'scheme fit' is not true imo. When it comes to improving the mental side of QBing I tend to agree with you that any improvement is marginal when it comes to overall decision making/processing. Mastery of the team's playbook helps here so young QBs that switch coordinators every other year are destined to be doomed. That doesn't seem like it will be an issue here in SF so hopefully the QB they select will have that going for him.

Originally posted by blissful:
Jones or Wilson, the rest will fizzle away like 99% of all the hyped African American QBs that came out of the college in the last 20 years.

Originally posted by krizay:
Jones
Wilson

Fields

Lance

in before you get banned lol.

4 of the 5 highest paid QBs are African American....because they're freaking good.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by jcs:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dhp318:

Originally posted by Joecool:
Someone tell me how Mac Jones makes sense. I 100% respect his QB ability, but can't we get a Mac Jones in free agency practically any year we want? According to the jump we made in the draft and what we gave up, tell me how this makes sense for Mac Jones. It's like giving up three 1st rounders for Kirk Cousins. We could have just done that and I'm sure MN would have done it.

Who is the Mac Jones that is available in free agency every year?

You don't think MN would trade us Kirk Cousins for three 1st rounders? You don't think we could have gotten Tom Brady for three 1st rounders back in 2019?

We can get a Mac Jones for three 1st rounders any year we want because NFL Teams would be wiling to trade that type of QB in a heart beat for three 1st rounders. You don't give up that much draft capital for a QB who's main strength is that he can read defenses...in college...

Cousins is 32. Jones is 22.

Cousins is also making $33 million a season and Jones will be on a rookie deal.

Only need 1 year to win a SB. Ask the Bucs that.

F three 1st rounders, a Mac Jones can be had any year. How often will you find a 4.4 QB who can throw like Fields?

People only say that because they inexplicably forget that the most important traits a QB has beside his arm are pocket awareness and the ability to quickly run through progressions (correctly) and find the open guy).

Which guy last year was touted as exceptional at those traits?

Which the year before?

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by blissful:
Jones or Wilson, the rest will fizzle away like 99% of all the hyped African American QBs that came out of the college in the last 20 years.

Originally posted by krizay:
Jones
Wilson

Fields

Lance

in before you get banned lol.

4 of the 5 highest paid QBs are African American....because they're freaking good.

Dude was already banned. I reported it as soon as I saw it, then came to realize I was way late to the party.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by thl408:
As of now I'm leaning towards Fields. The 'scheme fit' talk surrounding Mac is pointless and erroneous imo. Erroneous because there wasn't a lot that Mac did in college that SF does in their current offense. Pointless because the rookie will not be asked to play immediately so what's the point of looking for scheme fit? The rookie will get to sit as he learns and as Kyle molds the offense to better fit the abilities of the QB. If the QB can operate from the pocket, Kyle will consider him. But if you are prioritizing scheme fit in your evaluation, that player is Lance. But Lance has way too many big questions - level of competition, lack of experience in big time games (when compared to the Mac/Fields), lack of overall experience. I care very little for his reps on designed QB runs.

My primary concern with Fields is his pocket presence and how he looks blind to the rush at times. I'm not sure how much a QB can improve at this so I'm very wary of it. The other concern I have is how he wants to see the WR open before throwing the pass. I saw a good number of snaps where he waits a tick longer than he needs to. I read that OSU had many option routes and how that could explain it. I think this can be improved with confidence in the play concept which I think Kyle can provide. I didn't consider Wilson because I'm assuming he's going to NYJ.

I don't think it's "scheme fit" with Jones in terms of plays run, so much as it is "pro QB actions" that he has done, in particular, in the pocket.

That said, Fields will enter the NFL with top five arm talent. That doesn't grow on trees. As you said, he's going to sit anyway, which is plenty of time to learn Shanahan's scheme well enough to play.

As for Fields and the issues with anticipation throws, that was Kaepernick's downfall. However, the difference is Fields doesn't have a molasses in January release speed, and Fields can throw with touch as good as anyone. Not to mention he's more accurate.

Look, Kaepernick played just below Pro Bowl level when he was in a good scheme with a good coach and on a good team. Fields is way more polished than Kaepernick, he's way quicker, way more accurate, and he has a much faster release. That is why taking Fields would NOT be anything close to a mistake, and in fact it could pay massive dividends. If Kaepernick can have success, so can Fields, and then some.

That's why, while I STRONGLY believe that QBs rarely improve a lot in terms of the mental aspects (which is why I loved Mahomes so much [I'm perfectly willing to detail what I'm talking about in his thread]), nevertheless, lots of guys have success without every truly mastering that. Transcendent talent and scheme can cover up a lot of flaws, and kill a defense.

Good thoughts. The one area I have Mac over Fields is pocket presence so I agree with the bolded. Other than that, Mac being more 'pro ready' or more of a 'scheme fit' is not true imo. When it comes to improving the mental side of QBing I tend to agree with you that any improvement is marginal when it comes to overall decision making/processing. Mastery of the team's playbook helps here so young QBs that switch coordinators every other year are destined to be doomed. That doesn't seem like it will be an issue here in SF so hopefully the QB they select will have that going for him.

Either way we're getting either a guy who will quickly and consistently throw to where the playbook calls, maximizing the scheme as it is today, or we'll get a guy who forces defenses to defend every inch of the field. It's hard to lose here.

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by thl408:
As of now I'm leaning towards Fields. The 'scheme fit' talk surrounding Mac is pointless and erroneous imo. Erroneous because there wasn't a lot that Mac did in college that SF does in their current offense. Pointless because the rookie will not be asked to play immediately so what's the point of looking for scheme fit? The rookie will get to sit as he learns and as Kyle molds the offense to better fit the abilities of the QB. If the QB can operate from the pocket, Kyle will consider him. But if you are prioritizing scheme fit in your evaluation, that player is Lance. But Lance has way too many big questions - level of competition, lack of experience in big time games (when compared to the Mac/Fields), lack of overall experience. I care very little for his reps on designed QB runs.

My primary concern with Fields is his pocket presence and how he looks blind to the rush at times. I'm not sure how much a QB can improve at this so I'm very wary of it. The other concern I have is how he wants to see the WR open before throwing the pass. I saw a good number of snaps where he waits a tick longer than he needs to. I read that OSU had many option routes and how that could explain it. I think this can be improved with confidence in the play concept which I think Kyle can provide. I didn't consider Wilson because I'm assuming he's going to NYJ.

I don't think it's "scheme fit" with Jones in terms of plays run, so much as it is "pro QB actions" that he has done, in particular, in the pocket.

That said, Fields will enter the NFL with top five arm talent. That doesn't grow on trees. As you said, he's going to sit anyway, which is plenty of time to learn Shanahan's scheme well enough to play.

As for Fields and the issues with anticipation throws, that was Kaepernick's downfall. However, the difference is Fields doesn't have a molasses in January release speed, and Fields can throw with touch as good as anyone. Not to mention he's more accurate.

Look, Kaepernick played just below Pro Bowl level when he was in a good scheme with a good coach and on a good team. Fields is way more polished than Kaepernick, he's way quicker, way more accurate, and he has a much faster release. That is why taking Fields would NOT be anything close to a mistake, and in fact it could pay massive dividends. If Kaepernick can have success, so can Fields, and then some.

That's why, while I STRONGLY believe that QBs rarely improve a lot in terms of the mental aspects (which is why I loved Mahomes so much [I'm perfectly willing to detail what I'm talking about in his thread]), nevertheless, lots of guys have success without every truly mastering that. Transcendent talent and scheme can cover up a lot of flaws, and kill a defense.

Good thoughts. The one area I have Mac over Fields is pocket presence so I agree with the bolded. Other than that, Mac being more 'pro ready' or more of a 'scheme fit' is not true imo. When it comes to improving the mental side of QBing I tend to agree with you that any improvement is marginal when it comes to overall decision making/processing. Mastery of the team's playbook helps here so young QBs that switch coordinators every other year are destined to be doomed. That doesn't seem like it will be an issue here in SF so hopefully the QB they select will have that going for him.

Either way we're getting either a guy who will quickly and consistently throw to where the playbook calls, maximizing the scheme as it is today, or we'll get a guy who forces defenses to defend every inch of the field. It's hard to lose here.

And we get to retain Bosa, Warner, Deebo, Aiyuk, Greenlaw etc.

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
Either way we're getting either a guy who will quickly and consistently throw to where the playbook calls, maximizing the scheme as it is today, or we'll get a guy who forces defenses to defend every inch of the field. It's hard to lose here.

Well, we know maximizing the scheme as it is works PERFECTLY. Even with Mullens and to a lesser extent Beathard. We do not know what the other stuff is going to look like.

Give me bird in hand.

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by thl408:
As of now I'm leaning towards Fields. The 'scheme fit' talk surrounding Mac is pointless and erroneous imo. Erroneous because there wasn't a lot that Mac did in college that SF does in their current offense. Pointless because the rookie will not be asked to play immediately so what's the point of looking for scheme fit? The rookie will get to sit as he learns and as Kyle molds the offense to better fit the abilities of the QB. If the QB can operate from the pocket, Kyle will consider him. But if you are prioritizing scheme fit in your evaluation, that player is Lance. But Lance has way too many big questions - level of competition, lack of experience in big time games (when compared to the Mac/Fields), lack of overall experience. I care very little for his reps on designed QB runs.

My primary concern with Fields is his pocket presence and how he looks blind to the rush at times. I'm not sure how much a QB can improve at this so I'm very wary of it. The other concern I have is how he wants to see the WR open before throwing the pass. I saw a good number of snaps where he waits a tick longer than he needs to. I read that OSU had many option routes and how that could explain it. I think this can be improved with confidence in the play concept which I think Kyle can provide. I didn't consider Wilson because I'm assuming he's going to NYJ.

I don't think it's "scheme fit" with Jones in terms of plays run, so much as it is "pro QB actions" that he has done, in particular, in the pocket.

That said, Fields will enter the NFL with top five arm talent. That doesn't grow on trees. As you said, he's going to sit anyway, which is plenty of time to learn Shanahan's scheme well enough to play.

As for Fields and the issues with anticipation throws, that was Kaepernick's downfall. However, the difference is Fields doesn't have a molasses in January release speed, and Fields can throw with touch as good as anyone. Not to mention he's more accurate.

Look, Kaepernick played just below Pro Bowl level when he was in a good scheme with a good coach and on a good team. Fields is way more polished than Kaepernick, he's way quicker, way more accurate, and he has a much faster release. That is why taking Fields would NOT be anything close to a mistake, and in fact it could pay massive dividends. If Kaepernick can have success, so can Fields, and then some.

That's why, while I STRONGLY believe that QBs rarely improve a lot in terms of the mental aspects (which is why I loved Mahomes so much [I'm perfectly willing to detail what I'm talking about in his thread]), nevertheless, lots of guys have success without every truly mastering that. Transcendent talent and scheme can cover up a lot of flaws, and kill a defense.

Good thoughts. The one area I have Mac over Fields is pocket presence so I agree with the bolded. Other than that, Mac being more 'pro ready' or more of a 'scheme fit' is not true imo. When it comes to improving the mental side of QBing I tend to agree with you that any improvement is marginal when it comes to overall decision making/processing. Mastery of the team's playbook helps here so young QBs that switch coordinators every other year are destined to be doomed. That doesn't seem like it will be an issue here in SF so hopefully the QB they select will have that going for him.

Either way we're getting either a guy who will quickly and consistently throw to where the playbook calls, maximizing the scheme as it is today, or we'll get a guy who forces defenses to defend every inch of the field. It's hard to lose here.

Though only with Fields (or Lance) is there a possibility of both.

Originally posted by krizay:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
Either way we're getting either a guy who will quickly and consistently throw to where the playbook calls, maximizing the scheme as it is today, or we'll get a guy who forces defenses to defend every inch of the field. It's hard to lose here.

Well, we know maximizing the scheme as it is works PERFECTLY. Even with Mullens and to a lesser extent Beathard. We do not know what the other stuff is going to look like.

Give me bird in hand.

Here's the thing: on 3rd down, when you need that pocket guy to correctly diagnose and throw, someone like Fields can just take off and run to get that first down. Not always, but that will dictate what coverages they can run to an extent, making things easier for him.

I know your instinct is probably to bring up the limitations of Kaepernick. But there's a massive difference: Fields is an excellent thrower of the football. Teams cannot pull the cover 1 spy stuff they did with Kap all the time. Fields (and Shanahan) would make them pay big time.

Originally posted by 49ersRing:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by thl408:
As of now I'm leaning towards Fields. The 'scheme fit' talk surrounding Mac is pointless and erroneous imo. Erroneous because there wasn't a lot that Mac did in college that SF does in their current offense. Pointless because the rookie will not be asked to play immediately so what's the point of looking for scheme fit? The rookie will get to sit as he learns and as Kyle molds the offense to better fit the abilities of the QB. If the QB can operate from the pocket, Kyle will consider him. But if you are prioritizing scheme fit in your evaluation, that player is Lance. But Lance has way too many big questions - level of competition, lack of experience in big time games (when compared to the Mac/Fields), lack of overall experience. I care very little for his reps on designed QB runs.

My primary concern with Fields is his pocket presence and how he looks blind to the rush at times. I'm not sure how much a QB can improve at this so I'm very wary of it. The other concern I have is how he wants to see the WR open before throwing the pass. I saw a good number of snaps where he waits a tick longer than he needs to. I read that OSU had many option routes and how that could explain it. I think this can be improved with confidence in the play concept which I think Kyle can provide. I didn't consider Wilson because I'm assuming he's going to NYJ.

I don't think it's "scheme fit" with Jones in terms of plays run, so much as it is "pro QB actions" that he has done, in particular, in the pocket.

That said, Fields will enter the NFL with top five arm talent. That doesn't grow on trees. As you said, he's going to sit anyway, which is plenty of time to learn Shanahan's scheme well enough to play.

As for Fields and the issues with anticipation throws, that was Kaepernick's downfall. However, the difference is Fields doesn't have a molasses in January release speed, and Fields can throw with touch as good as anyone. Not to mention he's more accurate.

Look, Kaepernick played just below Pro Bowl level when he was in a good scheme with a good coach and on a good team. Fields is way more polished than Kaepernick, he's way quicker, way more accurate, and he has a much faster release. That is why taking Fields would NOT be anything close to a mistake, and in fact it could pay massive dividends. If Kaepernick can have success, so can Fields, and then some.

That's why, while I STRONGLY believe that QBs rarely improve a lot in terms of the mental aspects (which is why I loved Mahomes so much [I'm perfectly willing to detail what I'm talking about in his thread]), nevertheless, lots of guys have success without every truly mastering that. Transcendent talent and scheme can cover up a lot of flaws, and kill a defense.

Good thoughts. The one area I have Mac over Fields is pocket presence so I agree with the bolded. Other than that, Mac being more 'pro ready' or more of a 'scheme fit' is not true imo. When it comes to improving the mental side of QBing I tend to agree with you that any improvement is marginal when it comes to overall decision making/processing. Mastery of the team's playbook helps here so young QBs that switch coordinators every other year are destined to be doomed. That doesn't seem like it will be an issue here in SF so hopefully the QB they select will have that going for him.

Either way we're getting either a guy who will quickly and consistently throw to where the playbook calls, maximizing the scheme as it is today, or we'll get a guy who forces defenses to defend every inch of the field. It's hard to lose here.

Though only with Fields (or Lance) is there a possibility of both.

It's a remote possibility to get both with any of these guys.

Fields is who I want them to take. Take all those natural gifts and coach him up Shanny! After moving up to #3 I wouldn't play it safe by taking Mac Jones. Swing for the upside and get Fields. There are certain things Fields can do that Mac Jones will never be able to do but that isn't the case in reverse. Fields can learn the playbook and reads over time.

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
Here's the thing: on 3rd down, when you need that pocket guy to correctly diagnose and throw, someone like Fields can just take off and run to get that first down. Not always, but that will dictate what coverages they can run to an extent, making things easier for him.

I know your instinct is probably to bring up the limitations of Kaepernick. But there's a massive difference: Fields is an excellent thrower of the football. Teams cannot pull the cover 1 spy stuff they did with Kap all the time. Fields (and Shanahan) would make them pay big time.

You would be wrong on my instincts.

I understand what you are saying and I am not against a mobile QB much because for the reasons you lay out there.

I also agree Fields is an excellent thrower. My issues is with him knowing when and where to throw.

While his legs my bail you out of a few 3rd downs. His decision making will cause just as many.

Originally posted by krizay:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
Here's the thing: on 3rd down, when you need that pocket guy to correctly diagnose and throw, someone like Fields can just take off and run to get that first down. Not always, but that will dictate what coverages they can run to an extent, making things easier for him.

I know your instinct is probably to bring up the limitations of Kaepernick. But there's a massive difference: Fields is an excellent thrower of the football. Teams cannot pull the cover 1 spy stuff they did with Kap all the time. Fields (and Shanahan) would make them pay big time.

You would be wrong on my instincts.

I understand what you are saying and I am not against a mobile QB much because for the reasons you lay out there.

I also agree Fields is an excellent thrower. My issues is with him knowing when and where to throw.

While his legs my bail you out of a few 3rd downs. His decision making will cause just as many.

His arm can also bail you out. Brett Favre used to be wrong a lot early in his career, but his arm made him right. There's lots to like.

But you're right; if the guy fails to see where to go with the ball, it's going to be tough. Both Lance and Fields miss wide open hot routes way more often than I'd like.

But your offense can still function and function well. Jimmy isn't good at finding the open guy either, but Shanahan can scheme easy one-reads, and does, and they work pretty well, except for a few key downs per game. The thing with Jimmy, is that even these easy reads are missed too often; like the Bourne double move shoulda-been-touchdown vs Arizona.

Neither Fields nor Lance miss that game winning throw. Nor does Jones, of course.