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Originally posted by verb1der:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by jonnydel:
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The "justifications" come because a coaching staff is being called to be fired after years of sustained success. Are they not allowed to have a bad game? Are they not allowed to make mistakes? Are they to blame for everything? Is the solution so easy as to say, "fire Greg Roman" and we dominate the league? We act like championships are entitled, not earned. That the other team isn't fighting for the same thing we are and sometimes they get the better of you. We act like this team is doomed for failure when precedent clearly shows otherwise. We act like the problems in a game are one cause only.

I understand visceral reactions, but sometimes these are way overboard; too extreme and color opinions so much that we blame the nearest and easiest thing.

That's fair but the other side is admitting it was just a poor game plan lacking in situational awareness and really, setting us up for failure while sticking to the game plan...putting WAY too much on CK in a game we were up 17-0 even after it was obvious what wasn't working. And it snowballed from there and it ended in the very common pattern we've now seen over 4 years.

Trust me, I was just as pissed at Fangio's piss-poor game plan esp. at the end of the first half. I'm not here to advocate for firing anyone but I am willing to very much entertain that b/c I can comfortably say, that's probably what Jed and Baalke are talking about as we speak. Why? B/c that's their job! We just nationally embarrassed ourselves at a home opener in a clear pattern we've seen now over long periods of time...if they want to single out Harbaugh, Fangio or Roman, good! That's THEIR job.

Ballke and Jed have done their part...they've brought in the most talented roster in the NFL and brought in a brand new stadium with the best facilities and resources in the game to succeed at the highest level, yet, the pattern is exactly the same.

So today may be a day to back off the justifications and screen shots and gifs and look at the whole picture for a change...the body of work, and ask ourselves one simple question: Is this offensive philosophy going to get us over the hump and even help carry the defense a bit while we wait for the key reserves while we take on the Cards in AZ, Eagles, @ Saints, etc.? I think if anyone honestly answers that question with a resounding, "Yes!" at this juncture, s/he may be a bit out there IMHO.

Totally agree NC...the sample size is definitely big enough to really look at the big picture and fairly judge this current regime. I can see where Jonnydel is coming from but he hasn't been around here long enough to know that you guys have been pointing out these deficiencies for a while now and not much has changed.

The coaching staff is really quite excellent overall with my only qualm being play calling. They have every play in the book available to them but they--Roman and Harbaugh--don't seem to be really proficient at setting up defenses throughout the game. If they can't overpower a team they are at a loss...but this is not new and many have been longing for a more creative mind calling plays. So now we are at a new set of if onlys...

They:

  • Have to protect Smith
  • Don't have any WRs
  • OLine isn't blocking
  • Gore is getting old
  • Injuries
  • Kaepernick is young
  • Kaepernick is learning the O



The common denominator is this version of offense. The D has been consistently good dispite turn over at key positions. The offense has struggled against good defenses and sometimes not so good defenses. So I'm more a critic of this brand of offense rather than Roman. The philosophy dictates the playcalling, and it is very different than the WCO of yesteryear. So change the philosophy and...no....they have built the team to run the power game over the nuanced WCO and we are stuck running it until they can rebuild or morph into a move balanced, nuanced scheme...if ever they do.
  • thl408
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Originally posted by jonnydel:


You see how Dallas has crowded the LOS with their LB's - a lot like what Chicago was doing throughout the game last night.


I've highlighted the slot receiver - this isn't the route he runs on this play, but, if he did run a drag route, those LB's have him covered. They aren't having to "catch up" to anything. VD actually does run a drag route from the TE spot and it's covered. Dallas is trying to take away the middle of the field(which they have) You see that the only options are to the outside receivers. Which CK goes to on the hook to Boldin - just like he did last night to Crabs. The only difference is, on this one he threw it high and inside(Boldin made a great catch) but last night he threw it to the outside against a corner with outside leverage.


You see how the LB's pinch the drag route.


From here you see where the drag routes would be run and the red is where the LB's drop - they're not going to get beat by a drag if they drop into coverage.


You see how they're able to drop back shallow while reading the QB. If CK throws that drag route - Davis is going to get pummeled.

It was the right playcall and the right throw on the 2nd INT, it's just a bad throw.

I hope you didn't completely bow out of this thread.

I get what you are saying with the LBs crowding the LoS and denying the short middle. Using drag routes and short crossers is not ideal to beat LBs in zone unless there is a complimentary route behind the LB level defenders (think Shallow-Cross or Drive concepts). I see lone drag routes as man busters for the reason you illustrated above (DAL pics). I wanted to see more sit down routes where the WR finds the quiet area in between zones, which is what they did a lot of against DAL. Get 2 v1 situations and look to stretch a particular zone defender.

You also mentioned attacking the intermediate area (behind the LBs) when the LBs crowd the line. I agree with this because the closer they are to the line of scrimmage, the less they are able to play the passing lanes to the intermediate depth routes. So the WRs get behind the LBs, and again, find the quiet areas. I saw very little of this last night and I can't tell if it's because Roman didn't call for these routes or Kap didn't look to them.

You'll probably get to the film before I do so please let me know what you see when it comes to how the 49ers attacked the middle of the field in the passing game.
Originally posted by jonnydel:
Originally posted by verb1der:
Originally posted by NCommand:
+ Show all quotes
That's fair but the other side is admitting it was just a poor game plan lacking in situational awareness and really, setting us up for failure while sticking to the game plan...putting WAY too much on CK in a game we were up 17-0 even after it was obvious what wasn't working. And it snowballed from there and it ended in the very common pattern we've now seen over 4 years.

Trust me, I was just as pissed at Fangio's piss-poor game plan esp. at the end of the first half. I'm not here to advocate for firing anyone but I am willing to very much entertain that b/c I can comfortably say, that's probably what Jed and Baalke are talking about as we speak. Why? B/c that's their job! We just nationally embarrassed ourselves at a home opener in a clear pattern we've seen now over long periods of time...if they want to single out Harbaugh, Fangio or Roman, good! That's THEIR job.

Ballke and Jed have done their part...they've brought in the most talented roster in the NFL and brought in a brand new stadium with the best facilities and resources in the game to succeed at the highest level, yet, the pattern is exactly the same.

So today may be a day to back off the justifications and screen shots and gifs and look at the whole picture for a change...the body of work, and ask ourselves one simple question: Is this offensive philosophy going to get us over the hump and even help carry the defense a bit while we wait for the key reserves while we take on the Cards in AZ, Eagles, @ Saints, etc.? I think if anyone honestly answers that question with a resounding, "Yes!" at this juncture, s/he may be a bit out there IMHO.

Totally agree NC...the sample size is definitely big enough to really look at the big picture and fairly judge this current regime. I can see where Jonnydel is coming from but he hasn't been around here long enough to know that you guys have been pointing out these deficiencies for a while now and not much has changed.

This is why I need to back away - You talk about me like I've just been new to the zone. I've been watching the zone and the forums for over 6 years I just waited for several years before creating my profile, I just don't post all that often when I don't have evidence of what I'm talking about.

I understand if you all are upset, but there's not need to call me ignorant or someone who just makes "justifications" or who hasn't seen the "big picture".

screw that schidt homeboy, you just stick around. Your input is greatly appreciated round here
  • thl408
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 33,124
Originally posted by jonnydel:
This is why I need to back away - You talk about me like I've just been new to the zone. I've been watching the zone and the forums for over 6 years I just waited for several years before creating my profile, I just don't post all that often when I don't have evidence of what I'm talking about.

I understand if you all are upset, but there's not need to call me ignorant or someone who just makes "justifications" or who hasn't seen the "big picture".

Might I suggest you go to Marvin's post game thread. I'd like to hear your thoughts on a few things regarding how the 49ers attacked the Bears in the passing game. There's a lot of pitchforks in this thread. I wouldn't take it personal.
Originally posted by jonnydel:
This is why I need to back away - You talk about me like I've just been new to the zone. I've been watching the zone and the forums for over 6 years I just waited for several years before creating my profile, I just don't post all that often when I don't have evidence of what I'm talking about.

I understand if you all are upset, but there's not need to call me ignorant or someone who just makes "justifications" or who hasn't seen the "big picture".

I think you are just taking things a little to personal and in return trying to make it personal to others. Keep it to football discussions and not insinuating another posters character and youll be fine.
Originally posted by jonnydel:
This is why I need to back away - You talk about me like I've just been new to the zone. I've been watching the zone and the forums for over 6 years I just waited for several years before creating my profile, I just don't post all that often when I don't have evidence of what I'm talking about.

I understand if you all are upset, but there's not need to call me ignorant or someone who just makes "justifications" or who hasn't seen the "big picture".

Sorry if I offended you man, that wasn't my intention! But it's really hard to defend a coaching staff when for 3 straight years now they're still making the same mistakes, it's so frustrating. Seeing Bruce Miller lined up at WR pisses me off to no end... Ok sure they're good enough to beat these mediocre teams and have a winning record but after 3 years that doesn't fly anymore, WE WANT A CHAMPIONSHIP and if they don't get it done this year you can bet there's going to be some major changes in the coaching staff in 2015.

Again sorry if I offended you!
Free CK? Thats been the problem. We should have been running the ball in the 2nd half. The only reason they had the time to comeback is because of the careless turnovers on forced passes.
Originally posted by verb1der:
Originally posted by jonnydel:
This is why I need to back away - You talk about me like I've just been new to the zone. I've been watching the zone and the forums for over 6 years I just waited for several years before creating my profile, I just don't post all that often when I don't have evidence of what I'm talking about.

I understand if you all are upset, but there's not need to call me ignorant or someone who just makes "justifications" or who hasn't seen the "big picture".

Sorry if I offended you man, that wasn't my intention! But it's really hard to defend a coaching staff when for 3 straight years now they're still making the same mistakes, it's so frustrating. Seeing Bruce Miller lined up at WR pisses me off to no end... Ok sure they're good enough to beat these mediocre teams and have a winning record but after 3 years that doesn't fly anymore, WE WANT A CHAMPIONSHIP and if they don't get it done this year you can bet there's going to be some major changes in the coaching staff in 2015.

Again sorry if I offended you!

4 years ago we were 8 years deep into the dark ages. Be happy were a contender again.

People are so spoiled, complaining about only going to the title game 3 straight years. We all want a Super Bowl, but its really hard to win one. Be glad we have a chance every year.

People forget how bad it was before Harbaugh...
Originally posted by AUniner:
Lmao Verb makes a rant thread to fire Roman but can't acknowledge his boy Kap threw the game away with bad decisions.

Let me ask you, would you be able to win in Madden if the opponent knew exactly what play you're calling, and you had no choice but to call those plays?!
Originally posted by verb1der:
Originally posted by jonnydel:
This is why I need to back away - You talk about me like I've just been new to the zone. I've been watching the zone and the forums for over 6 years I just waited for several years before creating my profile, I just don't post all that often when I don't have evidence of what I'm talking about.

I understand if you all are upset, but there's not need to call me ignorant or someone who just makes "justifications" or who hasn't seen the "big picture".

Sorry if I offended you man, that wasn't my intention! But it's really hard to defend a coaching staff when for 3 straight years now they're still making the same mistakes, it's so frustrating. Seeing Bruce Miller lined up at WR pisses me off to no end... Ok sure they're good enough to beat these mediocre teams and have a winning record but after 3 years that doesn't fly anymore, WE WANT A CHAMPIONSHIP and if they don't get it done this year you can bet there's going to be some major changes in the coaching staff in 2015.

Again sorry if I offended you!

For sure! Don't bow out...timing is everything. Review the film, point out the good, the bad, the "we certainly could have exploited them doing X, Y, Z, etc," THAT is invaluable information...pure gold! Pun intended.
f**k it....he's free..

Last nights game was garbage and I don't imagine Jed York is to happy having the first home game to showcase his new stadium and the team plays like a bunch of 4th string boneheads. I don't think Jed is going to put up with the team playing like this for very long before there is changes made.
Originally posted by verb1der:
Sorry if I offended you man, that wasn't my intention! But it's really hard to defend a coaching staff when for 3 straight years now they're still making the same mistakes, it's so frustrating. Seeing Bruce Miller lined up at WR pisses me off to no end... Ok sure they're good enough to beat these mediocre teams and have a winning record but after 3 years that doesn't fly anymore, WE WANT A CHAMPIONSHIP and if they don't get it done this year you can bet there's going to be some major changes in the coaching staff in 2015.

Again sorry if I offended you!

Maybe change the title to "issues with the offense" or something rather than firing roman with a ton of !!! to make it less of a chicken little vs nonchicken little type thread. I just wanna talk offense :)
Originally posted by TheRickestRick:
Originally posted by verb1der:
Sorry if I offended you man, that wasn't my intention! But it's really hard to defend a coaching staff when for 3 straight years now they're still making the same mistakes, it's so frustrating. Seeing Bruce Miller lined up at WR pisses me off to no end... Ok sure they're good enough to beat these mediocre teams and have a winning record but after 3 years that doesn't fly anymore, WE WANT A CHAMPIONSHIP and if they don't get it done this year you can bet there's going to be some major changes in the coaching staff in 2015.

Again sorry if I offended you!

Maybe change the title to "issues with the offense" or something rather than firing roman with a ton of !!! to make it less of a chicken little vs nonchicken little type thread. I just wanna talk offense :)

Done. My pitchfork is still out though. This is put up or shut up year!!!!
Originally posted by verb1der:
Originally posted by AUniner:
Lmao Verb makes a rant thread to fire Roman but can't acknowledge his boy Kap threw the game away with bad decisions.

Let me ask you, would you be able to win in Madden if the opponent knew exactly what play you're calling, and you had no choice but to call those plays?!

40 wins in 3 years including 5 playoff wins. Clearly Roman's offense isnt THAT easy to read.

I think he stinks in the red zone, but yesterdays loss was due to the refs calling penalties like it was a flag football game, and Kap making bad choices with the ball.

Should have been running, but the Bears were playing to stop the run.
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