Eric Mangini Thread

Originally posted by Willisfn4life:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by NinerGM:

What in the sam hell?

After three games, the 49ers' top pass rusher, Ahmad Brooks, has no sacks. Their second-best pass rusher, Aaron Lynch, has one sack. One of the problems is that the outside linebackers have more coverage duties than they did in Vic Fangio's defense. That is, they're not always rushing the passer.

Sometimes they even are being asked to cover slot receivers one on one, which Brooks had to do against Larry Fitzgerald in the first quarter. Obvious result: 14-yard gain by Fitzgerald and a Cardinals first down. On those plays, the 49ers typically bring an odd blitzer -- a safety or a cornerback. The problem the last two games is that those blitzers aren't getting to the quarterback before he sees the mismatch. To their credit the 49ers did less of this in the second half Sunday. Brooks was credited with one quarterback hit.

Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/sports/nfl/san-francisco-49ers/article36920220.html#storylink=cpy

just further evidence that this guy is trying to be too cute with his schemes. this is freaking ridiculous. i am not a football mind by any means, but i literally have no idea what this guy is doing with this defense. you are blitzing your safeties and/or putting them up close to the line, further leaving the secondary exposed.....while having your 2 best pass rushers dropping into coverage and guarding slot guys. no wonder this guy gets canned everywhere he goes.

Can we just get away from the "cute" stuff and get back to football 101. That stuffed worked week one against a young qb but big Ben and Palmer tore right through this Mangini scheme. How about we play our safeties back and send our best two pass rushers after the qb. Like I said basic football 101. Mangini is starting to feel like the Greg Roman of defense.

It's true Mangini is using the OLBs to drop back in coverage more than Fangio, but it's not by much on per-snap basis.

The problem is how he does it. He's sometimes trotting out base defense when teams go 3 or 4 wide instead of matching up with his Nickel or Dime defense. This often results in the linebackers at a severe disadvantage in coverage.

From what I can tell in 3 games, Mangini's defense seems genius in a perfect world where the chalk board rules, and every player executes his responsibility perfectly without fail. Football doesn't work that way. It's not a computer program, it's human beings running around in a chaotic environment. What happened to playing to players strengths, and putting them in positions to succeed?

Mangini is doing a terrible job IMO.

Dude is calling this defense almost as if its a 4-3 and he's got Warren Sapp and Simeon Rice rushing the passer and Derrick Brooks dropping back into coverage.

His scheme is f**king stupid. He needs to stop being cute, sometimes you need to be f**king conventional. Why the f**k are two of your top passrushers covering the slot. why the f**k are you rushing three dlinemen who cant get to the qb to save their life. WHy the f**k are we making obvious disguises and putting your safeties in terrible positions. WHy are you making cb's who thrive in man run zone coverage nearly exclusively. why is TJE even suiting up on game day. why the f**k are you making slow ILB play tampa 2. WHY THE f**k DID WE COMPLETELY SCRAPE OUR PREVIOUS COVERAGE SCHEME! Talks about putting his players in the best position to succeed yet does none of that. The struggles on offense have so much to do with that oline, thats understandable. This s**t is just unacceptable.

Originally posted by jreff22:
Hated the initial hire/promotion....hate it even more now!

I went into it thinking they know what they are doing....but I have since changed my mind. These are the Singletary years all over again

Bring back bend-dont-break defense. Maybe Mangina gambles too much.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Dude is calling this defense almost as if its a 4-3 and he's got Warren Sapp and Simeon Rice rushing the passer and Derrick Brooks dropping back into coverage.

Exactly. He's running a scheme that he only knows but don't have the players to run it. Whatever he's doing, its not working. How are you gonna drop 8 in coverage (against AZ) and their WR's are still wide open??

Originally posted by socalniner:
Bring back bend-dont-break defense. Maybe Mangina gambles too much.

He does and he's losing. Sometimes he sends 5 or 6 guys and they still can't get to the QB.

Originally posted by dwy621:
He needs to stop playing Zone Coverage against these top QBs. The pass rush is not there for it to work effectively. Also needs to stop the 3 man rush and zone coverage. because a QB with all the time in the world will find the soft spot in the zone.

So much of this, it's not even funny.

Originally posted by Joecool:
This is obvious and was predicted. Mangini's philosophy is more about disguising than it is sending more rushers than blockers. We would rather fake our S blitz and try to make him sprint back the same distance the receiver is running his route AND expect him to beat the receiver there.

We would rather blitz a S and send Lynch, Whilhoite or Brooks trying to cover WR's.

Mangini has minimized the talent on this defense. We have two of the leagues higher end edge rushers and are not using them. We have a rookie DL and other veteran DL that can push the pocket but Mangini refuses to let them do what they are good at.

Agreed. Mangini's scheme is the polar opposite of Fangio's in nearly every single way.

Fangio
- primarily man coverage; pattern matching
- vanilla, static fronts; everything looks the same so that it confuses the QB.
- bland blitz packages; low blitz frequency
- CBs mainly in off coverage (lining up with a cushion)
- two safeties back at the snap, nearly all the time

Mangini:
- primarily zone coverage; little to zero pattern matching
- exotic fronts that move and shift and crowd the line to try to confuse pass pro
- many blitz packages; ILBs/CBs/safeties will blitz
- CBs mainly in press alignment
- safeties will line up anywhere on the field, then quickly rotate after the snap

That said, Fangio had the luxury of rushing 4 and getting QB pressure. This allowed 7 in coverage and a great team concept as it pertains to coverage. Mangini does not have a 4 man pass rush, and to compound matters, has also simplified the coverage. Fangio had this issue (lack of 4 man rush) at the start of last season, but still had Justin to push the pocket, then Lynch came on. Fangio also had a sophisticated coverage scheme installed that gave the pass rush more time to pressure the QB.

Originally posted by Baldie:
Exactly. He's running a scheme that he only knows but don't have the players to run it. Whatever he's doing, its not working. How are you gonna drop 8 in coverage (against AZ) and their WR's are still wide open??

It has just been largely old school zone blitz defense.

The biggest of those weaknesses came from what was originally a strength — the zone coverage behind the blitz. Many of the earliest zone blitzes Arnsparger called in Miami were not actually "blitzes" as we think of them now. The Dolphins would rush only four players in total, simply swapping out a rushing linebacker for a zone-dropping defensive lineman. As a result, these defenses were just as sound against the pass as zone defenses that had been run for the past 50 or so years. Defenders dropped to a spot, watched for a receiver in that area, and broke on the ball as it was released. Even with the threat of blitzes, quarterbacks eventually started exploiting the many soft spots on the field.

Which QB's began to eat up until Saban and Belichick came along. Mangini having worked as a secondary coach under Belichick must have more than a passing knowledge in the use of pattern matching concepts but he's basically abandoned them after the success Fangio had with them. The major advantage of pattern matching is that the emphasis is specifically on NOT giving up big plays, the various DB's will always prioritize covering the guy going on a deep route than anything else, as a result QB's have to throw shorter and into tighter windows typically.

Nick Saban, currently the head coach at Alabama, was the defensive coordinator under Bill Belichick when the two were with the Cleveland Browns in the early 1990s. While speaking to high school coaches at a recent clinic, Saban summed up the early problems of traditional spot-dropping zone coverage: "Well, when Marino's throwing it, that old break on the ball s**t don't work." The answer that Saban, Belichick, and many others developed was "pattern-match" coverage — essentially man coverage that uses zone principles to identify the matchups. As Saban explained at the 2010 Coach of the Year Clinics Football Manual clinic:

You can play coverages in three ways. You can play zone, man, or pattern-match man. Pattern-match man is a coverage that plays the pattern after the pattern distribution. That means you pick up in man coverage after the receivers make their initial breaks and cuts. We number receivers from the outside going inside. If the number-one receiver crosses with the number-two receiver, we do not pick up the man coverage until they define where they are going.

In other words, the zone blitz had come full circle. What began as a way to blitz without playing man coverage had started incorporating man coverage all over again, this time in an entirely new way.

Using pattern-match principles allowed defenses to overcome the deficiencies in both the manic, risk-heavy man-to-man blitzes and the easy-to-exploit soft spots in the zone-coverage scheme. There was now a way to keep the safety of the zone and the tighter coverage of man-to-man. Defenses had finally done for blitzing what Walsh had done for passing — keeping the reward but eliminating the risk.

http://grantland.com/features/dick-lebeau-evolution-coverage-tactics-zone-blitz/

^^ that is a fantastic article and just one of many that describe pattern matching. If anyone wants to see examples of it, check out the Pinned 'Concepts' thread. I saw the 49ers run many Fire Zone blitzes versus ARI and they did not pattern match. There is a way to incorporate blitzing and pattern matching which what I swore what would happen when Mangini came along. Bring the blitz packages that Mangini likes, then incorporate what Fangio/Donatell were teaching. Truly the best of both worlds. Mangini has abandoned the pattern match scheme and it is a downright shame.

Originally posted by jreff22:

Hated the initial hire/promotion....hate it even more now!

I never got it. The guy doesn't have much of a positive track record and when the 49ers made him the TE coach Vernon Davis had his worst year of his career and no other TE really blossomed. What was the appeal?

Originally posted by TheWooLick:

Originally posted by jreff22:
Hated the initial hire/promotion....hate it even more now!

I never got it. The guy doesn't have much of a positive track record and when the 49ers made him the TE coach Vernon Davis had his worst year of his career and no other TE really blossomed. What was the appeal?

He's probably a great interview with his advanced knowledge. But he cant apply it in game-time situations worth a damn.


Anybody think moving him to the booth might fix this? Maybe the birds eye view would put this into better perspective...

Originally posted by thl408:
^^ that is a fantastic article and just one of many that describe pattern matching. If anyone wants to see examples of it, check out the Pinned 'Concepts' thread. I saw the 49ers run many Fire Zone blitzes versus ARI and they did not pattern match. There is a way to incorporate blitzing and pattern matching which what I swore what would happen when Mangini came along. Bring the blitz packages that Mangini likes, then incorporate what Fangio/Donatell were teaching. Truly the best of both worlds. Mangini has abandoned the pattern match scheme and it is a downright shame.

Its frustrating because when you push everything aside, all the moving around at the line of scrimmage......he's calling a pretty remedial defense. A defense that you can run with if you have superior talent at pretty much every position, but if not, good QB's are going to sit back and destroy your whole world, just too many gaps for a good QB to find and if he is not being pressured right away, he'll make those throws almost automatically.

The game Sunday could have even been worse had guys not dropped passes for the Cards.

Originally posted by thl408:
^^ that is a fantastic article and just one of many that describe pattern matching. If anyone wants to see examples of it, check out the Pinned 'Concepts' thread. I saw the 49ers run many Fire Zone blitzes versus ARI and they did not pattern match. There is a way to incorporate blitzing and pattern matching which what I swore what would happen when Mangini came along. Bring the blitz packages that Mangini likes, then incorporate what Fangio/Donatell were teaching. Truly the best of both worlds. Mangini has abandoned the pattern match scheme and it is a downright shame.

I think you set yourself up for failure by thinking Mangini was gonna stick with anything Fangio had done. Just wasn't gonna happen. They have vastly different coaching styles. But it seems are blitzes are too telegraphed. The players or the scheme aren't disguising them well enough. Also when they bring all these safety blitzes they are asking Lynch or Brooks to cover a wr creating a real easy mis match if the blitz is picked up.

Originally posted by lamontb:

Originally posted by thl408:
^^ that is a fantastic article and just one of many that describe pattern matching. If anyone wants to see examples of it, check out the Pinned 'Concepts' thread. I saw the 49ers run many Fire Zone blitzes versus ARI and they did not pattern match. There is a way to incorporate blitzing and pattern matching which what I swore what would happen when Mangini came along. Bring the blitz packages that Mangini likes, then incorporate what Fangio/Donatell were teaching. Truly the best of both worlds. Mangini has abandoned the pattern match scheme and it is a downright shame.

I think you set yourself up for failure by thinking Mangini was gonna stick with anything Fangio had done. Just wasn't gonna happen. They have vastly different coaching styles. But it seems are blitzes are too telegraphed. The players or the scheme aren't disguising them well enough. Also when they bring all these safety blitzes they are asking Lynch or Brooks to cover a wr creating a real easy mis match if the blitz is picked up.

I didn't know anything about Mangini's scheme when he was named DC. I went off his history of learning under Belichick as defensive backs coach. The article Phoenix posted shows how Belichick and Sabean gave birth to pattern matching. So I connected the dots and thought Mangini would keep the pattern match scheme. Pretty much the only thing he kept from the previous scheme is the base 3-4 front.