Eric Mangini Thread

Originally posted by Antix:

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by Antix:

I hope this is truly all a ploy to get some real coordiantors. Im sorry, Im a bit biased but I just cant stand Mangini.

Barrows said somethibg about Brooks and Lynch dropping back 40% of pass play so far this year. 40 percent! Im guessing so Mangini can try to be all deceitful and send a safety instead. Stupid.

I really hope he gets that playing straight up and putting Tartt/Ward on 3rd down to cover slot receivers might just be a better matchup and better way to play defense. Imagine Brooks on Cobb...LOL!

One thing to consider though, isn't just the straight Stat about, "40 percent" because offensive personnel has a lot to do with determining that as well.

What we used to see, was that we were so dominant against the run in base packages, that teams would often run 3 WR just so they could attempt to run the ball on our smaller nickel package. That, essentially, made us a 4-2-5 defense. Fangio even mentioned 8t after ward was drafted that a slit DB would play 70% of the defensive snaps. It's why they didn't out a huge value on Sopoaga. So, in your 4-2-5 defense, your 2 OLB/DE's are gonna rush the passer a lot.

This year, we're seeing much less 3 wide sets. Now, with our 3-4-4 defense, in passing situations, you will have 1 OLB dropping in coverage unless your bringing 5 and only dropping 6 in coverage. So, while the stats point to Mangini dropping his pass rushers an inordinate amount; it's more a result of what the opposing offense is doing, not Mangini just being a tard.

Nope, mangini is just a tard

J/k..well..not really cuz i still think Mangini is a tard..but i get what youre saying.

Maybe we're seeing less 3 wr sets (though based on how many receivers have been running wild on us, it doesnt seem like it), but there were plays that Brooks was covering slot receivers (Fitz). So if there are 3 wrs out why isnt a nickel defense out? I just get the sense that LBs have too much coverage responsibility considering we used draft picks on a 1st and 2nd round safeties/slot corners these past offseasons. The last 2 games we've seen LBers getting bruned downfield. Im no scheme expert, but personnel wise I feel like we havent been matching up smartly.

The play

Originally posted by Antix:

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by Antix:

I hope this is truly all a ploy to get some real coordiantors. Im sorry, Im a bit biased but I just cant stand Mangini.

Barrows said somethibg about Brooks and Lynch dropping back 40% of pass play so far this year. 40 percent! Im guessing so Mangini can try to be all deceitful and send a safety instead. Stupid.

I really hope he gets that playing straight up and putting Tartt/Ward on 3rd down to cover slot receivers might just be a better matchup and better way to play defense. Imagine Brooks on Cobb...LOL!

One thing to consider though, isn't just the straight Stat about, "40 percent" because offensive personnel has a lot to do with determining that as well.

What we used to see, was that we were so dominant against the run in base packages, that teams would often run 3 WR just so they could attempt to run the ball on our smaller nickel package. That, essentially, made us a 4-2-5 defense. Fangio even mentioned 8t after ward was drafted that a slit DB would play 70% of the defensive snaps. It's why they didn't out a huge value on Sopoaga. So, in your 4-2-5 defense, your 2 OLB/DE's are gonna rush the passer a lot.

This year, we're seeing much less 3 wide sets. Now, with our 3-4-4 defense, in passing situations, you will have 1 OLB dropping in coverage unless your bringing 5 and only dropping 6 in coverage. So, while the stats point to Mangini dropping his pass rushers an inordinate amount; it's more a result of what the opposing offense is doing, not Mangini just being a tard.

Nope, mangini is just a tard

J/k..well..not really cuz i still think Mangini is a tard..but i get what youre saying.

Maybe we're seeing less 3 wr sets (though based on how many receivers have been running wild on us, it doesnt seem like it), but there were plays that Brooks was covering slot receivers (Fitz). So if there are 3 wrs out why isnt a nickel defense out? I just get the sense that LBs have too much coverage responsibility considering we used draft picks on a 1st and 2nd round safeties/slot corners these past offseasons. The last 2 games we've seen LBers getting bruned downfield. Im no scheme expert, but personnel wise I feel like we havent been matching up smartly.

play you are referring to, Ari wasn't in a 3 wide set, they put both WR's on one side and split a TE out wide. There's no way for a d-coord to know they would use this formation out of 21 personnel. He had zone dialed up, so, your other side corner isn't going to come over to help- or else your OLB is probably gonna be in deep 3rd responsibility which is even dumber.

So, that's why we were in our base 3-4 and had Brooks over Fitz.

Originally posted by jonnydel:

The play
play you are referring to, Ari wasn't in a 3 wide set, they put both WR's on one side and split a TE out wide. There's no way for a d-coord to know they would use this formation out of 21 personnel. He had zone dialed up, so, your other side corner isn't going to come over to help- or else your OLB is probably gonna be in deep 3rd responsibility which is even dumber.

So, that's why we were in our base 3-4 and had Brooks over Fitz.

Gotcha

Originally posted by Antix:

^^can you explain why there are 3 wrs on the field but we're in base defense and our two highly drafted safeties the last two years are on the bench? To "confuse" the qb?

Looks like they came out in 12 personnel, 1 back 2 TE's. A traditional run personnel group and flexed both TE's wide, providing a spread set. We did this l, at times, when we had Delanie Walker and A. Smith almost always had a completion.

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by Antix:

^^can you explain why there are 3 wrs on the field but we're in base defense and our two highly drafted safeties the last two years are on the bench? To "confuse" the qb?

Looks like they came out in 12 personnel, 1 back 2 TE's. A traditional run personnel group and flexed both TE's wide, providing a spread set. We did this l, at times, when we had Delanie Walker and A. Smith almost always had a completion.

So basically they came out in 12, kept our base D on the field and kept hitting us on shots down the field because this is now 2 plays thats happened on. Our base D is quite apparently bad at zone coverage.

Originally posted by Antix:

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by Antix:

^^can you explain why there are 3 wrs on the field but we're in base defense and our two highly drafted safeties the last two years are on the bench? To "confuse" the qb?

Looks like they came out in 12 personnel, 1 back 2 TE's. A traditional run personnel group and flexed both TE's wide, providing a spread set. We did this l, at times, when we had Delanie Walker and A. Smith almost always had a completion.

So basically they came out in 12, kept our base D on the field and kept hitting us on shots down the field because this is now 2 plays thats happened on. Our base D is quite apparently bad at zone coverage.

Yeah, pretty much. One thing that made our base D good in coverage last year, and the years previous, was that our corners were able to keep everything in front of them and offenses knew they weren't going to give up anything deep. So, they were able to decipher what was happening in front of them and make plays. This year, as I've mentioned not too long ago, I'm seeing stiffer hips and less ability to decipher what they're seeing, so it's leading to bigger holes in the zone.

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by Antix:

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by Antix:

^^can you explain why there are 3 wrs on the field but we're in base defense and our two highly drafted safeties the last two years are on the bench? To "confuse" the qb?

Looks like they came out in 12 personnel, 1 back 2 TE's. A traditional run personnel group and flexed both TE's wide, providing a spread set. We did this l, at times, when we had Delanie Walker and A. Smith almost always had a completion.

So basically they came out in 12, kept our base D on the field and kept hitting us on shots down the field because this is now 2 plays thats happened on. Our base D is quite apparently bad at zone coverage.

Yeah, pretty much. One thing that made our base D good in coverage last year, and the years previous, was that our corners were able to keep everything in front of them and offenses knew they weren't going to give up anything deep. So, they were able to decipher what was happening in front of them and make plays. This year, as I've mentioned not too long ago, I'm seeing stiffer hips and less ability to decipher what they're seeing, so it's leading to bigger holes in the zone.

Any idea why that is? The stiffer hips and lessened awarenss?

Originally posted by Antix:

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by Antix:
^^can you explain why there are 3 wrs on the field but we're in base defense and our two highly drafted safeties the last two years are on the bench? To "confuse" the qb?

Looks like they came out in 12 personnel, 1 back 2 TE's. A traditional run personnel group and flexed both TE's wide, providing a spread set. We did this l, at times, when we had Delanie Walker and A. Smith almost always had a completion.

So basically they came out in 12, kept our base D on the field and kept hitting us on shots down the field because this is now 2 plays thats happened on. Our base D is quite apparently bad at zone coverage.

Yes, big time. It's like they just hit their landmarks and stand around waiting to make the tackle. It's so frustrating to watch all the holes in the zones open up. I used to enjoy watching Fangio's coverages take shape. I had to watch the same play 4-5 times to understand what was going on. Now I watch Mangini's coverages once and see exactly what he's calling - cover3, tampa2, fire zone blitz - boooring.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by Antix:

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by Antix:

^^can you explain why there are 3 wrs on the field but we're in base defense and our two highly drafted safeties the last two years are on the bench? To "confuse" the qb?

Looks like they came out in 12 personnel, 1 back 2 TE's. A traditional run personnel group and flexed both TE's wide, providing a spread set. We did this l, at times, when we had Delanie Walker and A. Smith almost always had a completion.

So basically they came out in 12, kept our base D on the field and kept hitting us on shots down the field because this is now 2 plays thats happened on. Our base D is quite apparently bad at zone coverage.

Yes, big time. It's like they just hit their landmarks and stand around waiting to make the tackle. It's so frustrating to watch all the holes in the zones open up. I used to enjoy watching Fangio's coverages take shape. I had to watch the same play 4-5 times to understand what was going on. Now I watch Mangini's coverages once and see exactly what he's calling - cover3, tampa2, fire zone blitz - boooring.

Ugh. That really sucks to hear. I mean absolutely no offense by this, but if guys who dont do this do this for a living can diagnose so easily after breaking down the film imagine what the hell Aaron Rogers is gonna do. Ugh.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by Antix:

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by Antix:

^^can you explain why there are 3 wrs on the field but we're in base defense and our two highly drafted safeties the last two years are on the bench? To "confuse" the qb?

Looks like they came out in 12 personnel, 1 back 2 TE's. A traditional run personnel group and flexed both TE's wide, providing a spread set. We did this l, at times, when we had Delanie Walker and A. Smith almost always had a completion.

So basically they came out in 12, kept our base D on the field and kept hitting us on shots down the field because this is now 2 plays thats happened on. Our base D is quite apparently bad at zone coverage.

Yes, big time. It's like they just hit their landmarks and stand around waiting to make the tackle. It's so frustrating to watch all the holes in the zones open up. I used to enjoy watching Fangio's coverages take shape. I had to watch the same play 4-5 times to understand what was going on. Now I watch Mangini's coverages once and see exactly what he's calling - cover3, tampa2, fire zone blitz - boooring.

Agree, what I'm starting to wonder, jn watching the film is: are they jot pattern matching because the db's are just not recognizing what they're seeing so they're not moving off their landmarks, or does Mangini not trust them, or did Tomsula(or Baalke) not like the pattern matching to begin with.
I know we've kinda gone around it a couple times but, the reason I think Seattle doesn't pattern match like Fangio did is: you'll see their 2 outside defenders fly to the numbers every single play in pass coverage. They're very distinctly flying to a landmark. You'll also see Thomas set up camp 12-15 yards off the ball every time and their MLB's go 1-2 steps inside the hash marks.

From there, they'll jump on whatever patterns they have deciphered. But, initially, I see them spot drop. It makes me wonder, with how much our draft picks have looked like SEA players, that Baalke wants to copy SEA in every way.

Originally posted by Antix:

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by Antix:

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by Antix:
^^can you explain why there are 3 wrs on the field but we're in base defense and our two highly drafted safeties the last two years are on the bench? To "confuse" the qb?

Looks like they came out in 12 personnel, 1 back 2 TE's. A traditional run personnel group and flexed both TE's wide, providing a spread set. We did this l, at times, when we had Delanie Walker and A. Smith almost always had a completion.

So basically they came out in 12, kept our base D on the field and kept hitting us on shots down the field because this is now 2 plays thats happened on. Our base D is quite apparently bad at zone coverage.

Yeah, pretty much. One thing that made our base D good in coverage last year, and the years previous, was that our corners were able to keep everything in front of them and offenses knew they weren't going to give up anything deep. So, they were able to decipher what was happening in front of them and make plays. This year, as I've mentioned not too long ago, I'm seeing stiffer hips and less ability to decipher what they're seeing, so it's leading to bigger holes in the zone.

Any idea why that is? The stiffer hips and lessened awarenss?

My guess is no knows how to play zone defense very well because that's not something they did under Fangio. No one knows how to blitz because they rarely did it under Fangio. Safeties playing so far back, not something they did under Fangio. Fangio's safeties were closer to the LoS, many times in a Quarters look (10-15 yards depth), because they were asked to take over for coverage if a WR came their way (pattern match). So many things that Mangini is doing was not done under Fangio. It really is a scheme overhaul. Either he doesn't know how to teach what Fangio/Donatell was doing, or he's trying to put his stamp on the defense. Mangini is re-inventing a wheel that isn't broken.
That made very little sense.

With the moving around before the snap the 49er defense is fooling everybody but the opposing offense.

Originally posted by Antix:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by Antix:

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by Antix:

^^can you explain why there are 3 wrs on the field but we're in base defense and our two highly drafted safeties the last two years are on the bench? To "confuse" the qb?

Looks like they came out in 12 personnel, 1 back 2 TE's. A traditional run personnel group and flexed both TE's wide, providing a spread set. We did this l, at times, when we had Delanie Walker and A. Smith almost always had a completion.

So basically they came out in 12, kept our base D on the field and kept hitting us on shots down the field because this is now 2 plays thats happened on. Our base D is quite apparently bad at zone coverage.

Yes, big time. It's like they just hit their landmarks and stand around waiting to make the tackle. It's so frustrating to watch all the holes in the zones open up. I used to enjoy watching Fangio's coverages take shape. I had to watch the same play 4-5 times to understand what was going on. Now I watch Mangini's coverages once and see exactly what he's calling - cover3, tampa2, fire zone blitz - boooring.

Ugh. That really sucks to hear. I mean absolutely no offense by this, but if guys who dont do this do this for a living can diagnose so easily after breaking down the film imagine what the hell Aaron Rogers is gonna do. Ugh.

No offense taken at all- and my thoughts too when you see stuff like this, I'll even think, "if I can see this, and I don't do this for a living...."

Originally posted by jonnydel:
No offense taken at all- and my thoughts too when you see stuff like this, I'll even think, "if I can see this, and I don't do this for a living...."

It's almost as if the coaches are at disadvantage when evaluating this type of stuff because they are so stubborn with their philosophy. Mangini has probably spent the better part of 2 decades crafting what he believes to be his ideal defense, and when it doesn't work, it's the players execution that's to blame.

The execution has been bad, but at the same time the coach needs to recognize when things are not working, and put the players in a better situation to succeed. I'm watching the film and getting a strong sense that square pegs are being filled into round holes across the board.

Mangini is already looking like a terrible hire. How do you allow the Steelers deep outside speed to get by you ALL day in week 2, and then not know that Arizona loves to attack the middle of the field? They adjusted to cover the outside, and AZ tore them apart in the middle.

He also keeps rushing 3, which gives the QB all day to throw. Against a young secondary, that is a terrible plan. Hes dropping pass rushers into coverage, hes trying to use run stoppers as pass rushers, and his stupid fake S blitzes that have to then drop back into coverage are getting burned, because no above average NFL QB is fooled by those anymore.

Hes looking like a guy who has been out of the DC game for years. Old concepts, and didnt adapt one bit from week 2 to week 3.

Originally posted by jonnydel:
Agree, what I'm starting to wonder, jn watching the film is: are they jot pattern matching because the db's are just not recognizing what they're seeing so they're not moving off their landmarks, or does Mangini not trust them, or did Tomsula(or Baalke) not like the pattern matching to begin with.
I know we've kinda gone around it a couple times but, the reason I think Seattle doesn't pattern match like Fangio did is: you'll see their 2 outside defenders fly to the numbers every single play in pass coverage. They're very distinctly flying to a landmark. You'll also see Thomas set up camp 12-15 yards off the ball every time and their MLB's go 1-2 steps inside the hash marks.

From there, they'll jump on whatever patterns they have deciphered. But, initially, I see them spot drop. It makes me wonder, with how much our draft picks have looked like SEA players, that Baalke wants to copy SEA in every way.

I've seen SEA's Hook zone defenders pattern match in order to avoid flood concepts from busting their cover3, but I agree with you that their level of pattern matching is nowhere close to what Fangio was doing.

I don't have a pre-cut example of SEA doing this, but I do have an example of PHI doing what I've seen SEA do.


The blue square is the Hook defender pattern matching VD so that the flood does not bust Cover3. Blue knows there is no other threat coming to his zone, so he is free to leave his zone in order to match VD. Mangini is not allowing his defenders to do this.


Three level flood Versus Cover3 with pattern matching
The defense defeats the flood so Kap goes backside.


Anyway, eff SEA.