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Eric Mangini Thread

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Eric Mangini Thread

Originally posted by SofaKing:
Originally posted by Evilgenius:
Tampa 2 requires a dominant interior and edge rusher. You can't let the QB step up into the pocket or they will kill you over the middle. It's a defense that requires a lot of talent to run and most offenses have it figured out pretty well already. I actually don't think it has many if any advantages schematically to some more conventional schemes or pattern matching. Zone does allow for the opportunity to make plays on the ball perhaps a little more easily, but not if you don't have a consistent passrush.

Yup. In today's game, I don't think you can get away with strictly playing zone or man straight up. That's what pattern matching was created for. Get the best of both worlds and adapt to whatever the offense throws at you. When executed properly, we were in the ideal coverage on every snap.

What's the pattern matching concept you're referring to ? I thought with fangio the niner D was man to man with 2 high safeties and a four man pass rush,
Fangio would blitz occasionally but some fans would become frustrated with fangio D because it was simplified, 4 man pass rush with stunts and twist all game long..
Anyways this crap isn't working with mangini, I'm beyond frustrated
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Basically, Mangini is taking the personnel we have and doing the complete opposite of our strengths. Pretty much the Anti-Geep right now.

If he wants to run this scheme, he needs electric ILB's who cover tremendously coupled with superior pass rushers.

So what does he do? He's runs out the run defenders in Dorsey - Williams - Dial. And then asks a guy coming off an ACL to play every snap and cover all game...next to his TED ILB...who he asks to cover all game. Then, to ensure we have no pass rush whatsoever, he takes our OLB's and has them drop in coverage all day, sprint back 50 yards to the huddle after covering a RB (near TD) and then asks them to pass rush on the next play.

If we wanted coverage ILB's he'd use Tartt & Ward as the ILB's or even McCray or Hodges. Wilhoite and Bowman are major liabilities in coverage and he's done nothing to adapt his scheme even when he has some of the personnel to run it.

There is NOTHING genius about his scheme unless his long-term plan is to be just good enough and bad enough to get JT fired to take over at HC.

Totally agree with the bolded, but I'm not sure I agree that Mangini is consistently misusing the players' skill sets. There are a few obvious issues each game--Lynch or Wilhoite trying to cover veteran WRs--but he has mixed his calls and seems to be teaching the players how to play many different schemes--on the fly.

The fact that they haven't been able to mount much of a pass rush is frustrating but that's the only area I see a deficit in talent. Lynch gets close but can't seem to make that last move, whether power or speed, to get the QB. Brooks is more of an all around contain OLB, or that has been his role. Bowman had a nice blitz causing the QB to misfire, but where are the safeties and CBs when the OLBs are covering? Usually, if you have OLBs covering, it opens up a chance for a DB to blitz.

Seems like they are still a bit slow in the switches and blitzes because they are uncertain about their assignments. But Wilhoite looked more decisive, Acker is getting better every game...so it still may gel and the D could still become elite. If Mangini is making a mistake it may be by using so many schemes early, but the alternative is to be one dimensional.

Agreed. So, for discussion, here are my (early) concerns:
  • 12 man penalties...this is a BIG sign of major confusion in just getting personnel on and off the field. I believed he referred to his play calling systems as "air traffic control" which sounded like HaRoman's offensive system. It shows on the field. If personnel are confused about who is to come on/off the field, imagine the assignment confusion ON the play. This is why we see so much pre snap talking (making us a step slow at the snap), oh-s**t moments, hands raised, players talking to each other after the play, not playing the ball (but trying to play their spot/player), etc.
  • Speaking of HaRoman, part of the struggles week-to-WEAK is that the defensive game plans are a hodge-podge of schemes...multiple schemes wrapped up into one game plan that changes every week. In short, they don't have a foundation...and if you don't have a foundation defense, you can't build on top of it.
  • Neither Bowman nor Wilhoite can cover underneath all game long and cover half the field like they do. Way too much is put on them and the S's in this scheme. Way too much. Someone had noted that Bowman has had 21 of 21 straight completions on him at one point. Their strengths, like we saw yesterday, are playing down hill and blowing up running plays. This is the opposite of their strengths.
  • Personnel choices. Yes, the hurry-up is forcing our base defense to get stuck in mismatches (Lynch on a RB for 50 yards who just missed a TD). But at what point do you realize we don't need our base run defense in there with Dorsey - Williams - Dial? 20 straight passes? 30? 40? 50? In two games now, two QB's have attempted 107 passes against our secondary and instead of getting better coverage players such as Tartt and Ward or Hodges/McCray in a Big Dime and instead of going with straight pass rushers along the DL such as AA - Purcell - Tank, he stays in the base defense in zone (Dorsey - Williams - Dial - Wilhoite - Bowman). The only base defense that should be out there when a team is passing that much is Brooks and Lynch and the secondary.
  • CB's/S's...with the personnel we have in Acker and Brock, they have the ability to play press or in pattern matching. Same with Ward. And the S's are best in read-react and Bethea is esp. great inside the box diagnosing running plays. In short, Mangini is playing against their strengths too (obviously).
  • Retention. Mangini is the opposite of Geep right now. Mangini is trying to sink or swim his personnel into a square-peg/round-hole scheme and varying game plan from week to week and HE is not adjusting to the proven strengths and flexibility of our players. He, like Roman before him, is just asking for better execution within HIS scheme. And we can see how they can somewhat hold up in the first half but by the second, they are wiped out and tired and have a hell of a hard time getting off the field. He did not learn anything from the GB game where he asked both OLB's to rush the passer and contain the edges all game long. I can't wait to see his scheme against Seattle!
[ Edited by NCommand on Oct 19, 2015 at 9:02 AM ]
Originally posted by NCommand:
Agreed. So, for discussion, here are my (early) concerns:
  • 12 man penalties...this is a BIG sign of major confusion in just getting personnel on and off the field. I believed he referred to his play calling systems as "air traffic control" which sounded like HaRoman's offensive system. It shows on the field. If personnel are confused about who is to come on/off the field, imagine the assignment confusion ON the play. This is why we see so much pre snap talking (making us a step slow at the snap), oh-s**t moments, hands raised, players talking to each other after the play, not playing the ball (but trying to play their spot/player), etc.
  • Speaking of HaRoman, part of the struggles week-to-WEAK is that the defensive game plans are a hodge-podge of schemes...multiple schemes wrapped up into one game plan that changes every week. In short, they don't have a foundation...and if you don't have a foundation defense, you can't build on top of it.
  • Neither Bowman nor Wilhoite can cover underneath all game long and cover half the field like they do. Way too much is put on them and the S's in this scheme. Way too much. Someone had noted that Bowman has had 21 of 21 straight completions on him at one point. Their strengths, like we saw yesterday, are playing down hill and blowing up running plays. This is the opposite of their strengths.
  • Personnel choices. Yes, the hurry-up is forcing our base defense to get stuck in mismatches (Lynch on a RB for 50 yards who just missed a TD). But at what point do you realize we don't need our base run defense in there with Dorsey - Williams - Dial? 20 straight passes? 30? 40? 50? In two games now, two QB's have attempted 107 passes against our secondary and instead of getting better coverage players such as Tartt and Ward or Hodges/McCray in a Big Dime and instead of going with straight pass rushers along the DL such as AA - Purcell - Tank, he stays in the base defense in zone (Dorsey - Williams - Dial - Wilhoite - Bowman). The only base defense that should be out there when a team is passing that much is Brooks and Lynch and the secondary.
  • CB's/S's...with the personnel we have in Acker and Brock, they have the ability to play press or in pattern matching. Same with Ward. And the S's are best in read-react and Bethea is esp. great inside the box diagnosing running plays. In short, Mangini is playing against their strengths too (obviously).
  • Retention. Mangini is the opposite of Geep right now. Mangini is trying to sink or swim his personnel into a square-peg/round-hole scheme and varying game plan from week to week and HE is not adjusting to the proven strengths and flexibility of our players. He, like Roman before him, is just asking for better execution within HIS scheme. And we can see how they can somewhat hold up in the first half but by the second, they are wiped out and tired and have a hell of a hard time getting off the field. He did not learn anything from the GB game where he asked both OLB's to rush the passer and contain the edges all game long. I can't wait to see his scheme against Seattle!

Good points!

Tomsula explained the 12 man issue as injured players coming in the game and some confusion with subs. That makes sense, as does the fact that they use so many players that it's natural for some confusion early. They should start smoothing that out...soon!

Defensive schemes seem to be in flux but I wouldn't know whether it's better to establish a "base" rather than a number of schemes. Seems like a good idea to use multiple schemes and work into them, improve over the year, rather than a consistant base folks can scheme for. It's actually worked out that the opponents are keeping the niners in a base by no huddle or hurry up plays, catching them trying to sub out of the base. I do miss Donatel more than any other assistant!

At what point do you shift from guys who can play ILB against the run (Bowman and Wilhoite) to guys who can play cover? I agree that with the strength of the DL it may be good to play more safeties in those spots for the whole game. Bowman's leadership is important though!

When you have a team down and they have to pass, it seems a perfect time to use Tank/Purcell and Armstead, with Tartt and Ward. Call it the full pressure D.

Not sure I agree regarding Mangini playing players against their skill set. He is forcing them to learn multiple ways to play. I thnk of it as a tryout to see which players will be most useful down the road...which ones can learn and adapt? Also believe that's why they picked up Hodges...Bowman isn't back 100% and Wilhoite is an over-acheiver with limited athletic ability. They need a dominant rusher either on the DL or OLB spots and I'm extremely disappointed they haven't tried Purcell yet. The guy showed great energy and quickness during preseason. Even if he isn't an every down guy...when you are ahead by two scores late in the game you can turn a guy like that loose!
[ Edited by dtg_9er on Oct 19, 2015 at 10:09 AM ]
Originally posted by corona55569:
What's the pattern matching concept you're referring to ? I thought with fangio the niner D was man to man with 2 high safeties and a four man pass rush,

thl408 described it well:

Pattern Matching (pattern reading, match zone)

This coverage concept starts off as zone coverage, then morphs to man coverage as the play develops. The premise is that an offense has a finite amount of ways it can distribute routes throughout the field of play. Using pre-snap audibles and on-the-fly adjustments, a defense can cover any route while using the defender that is in the best position on the field to cover that route. It attempts to blend the best of both worlds from zone and man coverage. The origin of Pattern Matching came from Bill Belichick and Nick Saban when the two were in CLE where Belichick was the HC and Saban the DC.

Strengths:
- Tighter windows to throw into
- Defenders are less likely to cover grass as the coverage morphs to man coverage
- Ability to play split coverages to confuse the QB
- Can be incorporated into any cover shell (Cover 1/2/3/4)

Weaknesses:
- Difficult to teach on a team wide scale
- Blown coverages result in WRs running wide open
- Mismatches in coverage (safeties/LBs covering WRs)
- Late pre-snap motion/shifts can confuse pattern matching rules

You can read more here: http://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/niners/182144-all22-analysis-coverages-amp-concepts/#post2
I wonder if Tomsula put a leash on Man-gina, he seems to be Blitzing less, now if Jimmy T, and get him to let corners cover WR, and let linebackers handle Rb, and rush the passer!
Originally posted by corona55569:
Originally posted by SofaKing:
Originally posted by Evilgenius:
Tampa 2 requires a dominant interior and edge rusher. You can't let the QB step up into the pocket or they will kill you over the middle. It's a defense that requires a lot of talent to run and most offenses have it figured out pretty well already. I actually don't think it has many if any advantages schematically to some more conventional schemes or pattern matching. Zone does allow for the opportunity to make plays on the ball perhaps a little more easily, but not if you don't have a consistent passrush.

Yup. In today's game, I don't think you can get away with strictly playing zone or man straight up. That's what pattern matching was created for. Get the best of both worlds and adapt to whatever the offense throws at you. When executed properly, we were in the ideal coverage on every snap.

What's the pattern matching concept you're referring to ? I thought with fangio the niner D was man to man with 2 high safeties and a four man pass rush,
Fangio would blitz occasionally but some fans would become frustrated with fangio D because it was simplified, 4 man pass rush with stunts and twist all game long..
Anyways this crap isn't working with mangini, I'm beyond frustrated

I don't see enough stuns and games up front, just bull rush after bullrush, maybe I have anger vision, I'd lie to see a comparison to last season. Also it seems like a down linemen, and OLB have contain duty, meaning we are really only rushing 2
Originally posted by GolittaCamper:
I wonder if Tomsula put a leash on Man-gina, he seems to be Blitzing less, now if Jimmy T, and get him to let corners cover WR, and let linebackers handle Rb, and rush the passer!

I think the Pittsburgh game scared the s**t out of them. They're afraid to show blitz now. Against the better QBs in the league, it's not a good idea. But against less experienced guys like Bridgewater, we should dial up the pressure.

Right now there is no easy answer, because the defense isn't really good at anything. We can call whatever we want, but if the execution isn't there, we'll continue to get burned. We have very little pass rush or coverage ability.
If we can't blitz successfully, go to the dime...or the quarter...or the dollar. But geez, do something different than leaving the entire middle of the field wide open. We won that game by luck. Smith dropped two TDs. We should have lost thanks to mangini. What doesn't he see that we all do? The middle is stark raving open. It is mush. Nobody there to prevent a complete pass. On radio it sounded horrible. It must have looked worse. How about JT becoming DC? Not a mangini fan ever, but DC? Please make him go away.

As for personnel, as NC has said many times, Bow and Wilhoite can't cover. When in passing situation, put in personnel that can. Mangini never did. DC errror. HC error. You guys need to fix it or you will be out on your azzes in another half season.
[ Edited by pasodoc9er on Oct 19, 2015 at 3:08 PM ]
Do we have like the 31st ranked Defense this year???

Thanks Mangina
Mangini is a great defensive mind who learned from one of the best in Belichick. You could always hear how knowledgeable he was on ESPN. The problem right now is he just doesn't have the personnel to execute his scheme. His defense requires smart, athletic players. This team doesn't have anybody on the level of a Mike Vrabel or a Tedy Bruschi right now.
Originally posted by Jimbutsu:
Mangini is a great defensive mind who learned from one of the best in Belichick. You could always hear how knowledgeable he was on ESPN. The problem right now is he just doesn't have the personnel to execute his scheme. His defense requires smart, athletic players. This team doesn't have anybody on the level of a Mike Vrabel or a Tedy Bruschi right now.

Agreed to an extent. The talent obviously is relatively poor, but Fangio still had a pretty decent defense despite a ton of injuries on that side of the ball last year.
Originally posted by Jimbutsu:
Mangini is a great defensive mind who learned from one of the best in Belichick. You could always hear how knowledgeable he was on ESPN. The problem right now is he just doesn't have the personnel to execute his scheme. His defense requires smart, athletic players. This team doesn't have anybody on the level of a Mike Vrabel or a Tedy Bruschi right now.

Plenty of players and coaching staff looked good there, but sucked else where
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by Jimbutsu:
Mangini is a great defensive mind who learned from one of the best in Belichick. You could always hear how knowledgeable he was on ESPN. The problem right now is he just doesn't have the personnel to execute his scheme. His defense requires smart, athletic players. This team doesn't have anybody on the level of a Mike Vrabel or a Tedy Bruschi right now.

Agreed to an extent. The talent obviously is relatively poor, but Fangio still had a pretty decent defense despite a ton of injuries on that side of the ball last year.

I'm kind of in between both of you...I think we actually have a lot of talent (certainly better than what Fangio had last year who finished top 5 again) but Mangini's scheme is opposite of Vic in so many ways, it's not playing to our strengths right now. And it's convoluted and varying complex (like our complaints about HaRoman's in the past...feel herky-jerky with no real foundation). That said, no doubt, we still need another dominant pass rusher. And if Mangini doesn't adapt and stays on, Baalke is going to have to readjust his entire defensive draft board for different types of players.
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Agreed. So, for discussion, here are my (early) concerns:
  • 12 man penalties...this is a BIG sign of major confusion in just getting personnel on and off the field. I believed he referred to his play calling systems as "air traffic control" which sounded like HaRoman's offensive system. It shows on the field. If personnel are confused about who is to come on/off the field, imagine the assignment confusion ON the play. This is why we see so much pre snap talking (making us a step slow at the snap), oh-s**t moments, hands raised, players talking to each other after the play, not playing the ball (but trying to play their spot/player), etc.
  • Speaking of HaRoman, part of the struggles week-to-WEAK is that the defensive game plans are a hodge-podge of schemes...multiple schemes wrapped up into one game plan that changes every week. In short, they don't have a foundation...and if you don't have a foundation defense, you can't build on top of it.
  • Neither Bowman nor Wilhoite can cover underneath all game long and cover half the field like they do. Way too much is put on them and the S's in this scheme. Way too much. Someone had noted that Bowman has had 21 of 21 straight completions on him at one point. Their strengths, like we saw yesterday, are playing down hill and blowing up running plays. This is the opposite of their strengths.
  • Personnel choices. Yes, the hurry-up is forcing our base defense to get stuck in mismatches (Lynch on a RB for 50 yards who just missed a TD). But at what point do you realize we don't need our base run defense in there with Dorsey - Williams - Dial? 20 straight passes? 30? 40? 50? In two games now, two QB's have attempted 107 passes against our secondary and instead of getting better coverage players such as Tartt and Ward or Hodges/McCray in a Big Dime and instead of going with straight pass rushers along the DL such as AA - Purcell - Tank, he stays in the base defense in zone (Dorsey - Williams - Dial - Wilhoite - Bowman). The only base defense that should be out there when a team is passing that much is Brooks and Lynch and the secondary.
  • CB's/S's...with the personnel we have in Acker and Brock, they have the ability to play press or in pattern matching. Same with Ward. And the S's are best in read-react and Bethea is esp. great inside the box diagnosing running plays. In short, Mangini is playing against their strengths too (obviously).
  • Retention. Mangini is the opposite of Geep right now. Mangini is trying to sink or swim his personnel into a square-peg/round-hole scheme and varying game plan from week to week and HE is not adjusting to the proven strengths and flexibility of our players. He, like Roman before him, is just asking for better execution within HIS scheme. And we can see how they can somewhat hold up in the first half but by the second, they are wiped out and tired and have a hell of a hard time getting off the field. He did not learn anything from the GB game where he asked both OLB's to rush the passer and contain the edges all game long. I can't wait to see his scheme against Seattle!

Good points!

Tomsula explained the 12 man issue as injured players coming in the game and some confusion with subs. That makes sense, as does the fact that they use so many players that it's natural for some confusion early. They should start smoothing that out...soon!

Defensive schemes seem to be in flux but I wouldn't know whether it's better to establish a "base" rather than a number of schemes. Seems like a good idea to use multiple schemes and work into them, improve over the year, rather than a consistant base folks can scheme for. It's actually worked out that the opponents are keeping the niners in a base by no huddle or hurry up plays, catching them trying to sub out of the base. I do miss Donatel more than any other assistant!

At what point do you shift from guys who can play ILB against the run (Bowman and Wilhoite) to guys who can play cover? I agree that with the strength of the DL it may be good to play more safeties in those spots for the whole game. Bowman's leadership is important though!

When you have a team down and they have to pass, it seems a perfect time to use Tank/Purcell and Armstead, with Tartt and Ward. Call it the full pressure D.

Not sure I agree regarding Mangini playing players against their skill set. He is forcing them to learn multiple ways to play. I thnk of it as a tryout to see which players will be most useful down the road...which ones can learn and adapt? Also believe that's why they picked up Hodges...Bowman isn't back 100% and Wilhoite is an over-acheiver with limited athletic ability. They need a dominant rusher either on the DL or OLB spots and I'm extremely disappointed they haven't tried Purcell yet. The guy showed great energy and quickness during preseason. Even if he isn't an every down guy...when you are ahead by two scores late in the game you can turn a guy like that loose!

Thanks for the points of clarification. Just figured it was b/c of his air-traffic-control system. TBF, this game may have been the only time we've had that issue? Something to keep our eye on.

Love your comments about using more S's for ILB's and pass rushers along the DL esp. when it's been pretty well established the QB's are going to pass and pass often. Even if they run a draw and get past the DL, you've got speed in Tartt/Ward flying up to make a minimal-gain tackle.
So much whining and b***hing about mangini.

This is my kinda party.

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