Eric Mangini Thread

Great listen there. Can't wait to see his defense out on the field this season!

Originally posted by tohara3:
Great listen there. Can't wait to see his defense out on the field this season!

It helps confirm our top picks in Ward and Tartt too...LJ McCray added as well. I wonder if Moody will also be that hybrid as well?

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by tohara3:
Great listen there. Can't wait to see his defense out on the field this season!

It helps confirm our top picks in Ward and Tartt too...LJ McCray added as well. I wonder if Moody will also be that hybrid as well?

Almost seems as though Baalke was drafting with Mangini in mind...oops...another conspiracy theory...LOL!

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by tohara3:

Great listen there. Can't wait to see his defense out on the field this season!

It helps confirm our top picks in Ward and Tartt too...LJ McCray added as well. I wonder if Moody will also be that hybrid as well?

Almost seems as though Baalke was drafting with Mangini in mind...oops...another conspiracy theory...LOL!

Mangini was hired after the draft so it makes sense

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
Mangini was hired after the draft so it makes sense

If I recall correctly, all coaches were allowed to leave except Chryst and Mangini...hmmm...

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
Mangini was hired after the draft so it makes sense

If I recall correctly, all coaches were allowed to leave except Chryst and Mangini...hmmm...

Yup. Plus, JT and Rathman. We know Baalke loves to create depth...even with his coaches. Look at the roster and coaching staff now...always someone ready to step in. Mangini being moved to TE coach was just a way to keep him on staff in case we lost Fangio to a HC gig.

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by tohara3:

Great listen there. Can't wait to see his defense out on the field this season!

It helps confirm our top picks in Ward and Tartt too...LJ McCray added as well. I wonder if Moody will also be that hybrid as well?

Almost seems as though Baalke was drafting with Mangini in mind...oops...another conspiracy theory...LOL!

Mangini was hired after the draft so it makes sense

Just look at the thread creation date of this thread. Mangini became DC months before the draft.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by tohara3:
Great listen there. Can't wait to see his defense out on the field this season!

It helps confirm our top picks in Ward and Tartt too...LJ McCray added as well. I wonder if Moody will also be that hybrid as well?

Just had a chance to listen to that podcast and it is indeed very thought provoking. I was amazed that Mangini's defense (when he was HC) was last in the league at how often he came with a standard 4 man rush. I don't know how much of that had to do with RRyan as DC, but Mangini was the HC and obviously allowed it.

Very nice insight into ARI's defense as well and it shines a lot of light into the Ward and Tartt picks, like you said. Ward as the hybrid FS/CB with Tartt as the hybrid SS/LB. I've been watching Ward's tape and he is a very capable CB for a converted safety. He will do just fine in spot duty at slot CB.

Does anyone remember where Merton Hanks would line up when he was playing the hybrid FS/CB role? Was he a slot or outside CB? That hybrid FS/CB role allows the defense to stay in its base when the offense comes with a 3WR look and not suffer anything with regards to run defense. Simply put Ward into the slot, play the other safety in a single high look. The front 7 doesn't come off the field and Ward can hold his own in the slot. SEA loves to run with 11 personnel (3WR), so this is a direct counter to that. Of course, Ward is not the starting FS so this situation hasn't come to fruition yet.

There were many instances of SEA going 3WR and the 49ers staying in their base 3-4 over the last couple seasons. The 49ers were very afraid of getting run on if they countered SEA's 3WRs with their nickel package. The 49ers would line up one of the OLBs over the slot WR with a safety over the top to help out with coverage on that slot WR. All this so that they didn't have to remove a LB and stay strong on run defense.

Listened to that podcast last night and came away very excited about our defense. I know AZ used 4 safety looks last year with Bucannon, Mathieu, Jefferson, Johnson, but didn't realize how often they employed it. They did what they had to do, making up for a weak LB core. We have similar defensive versatility with our current roster, and I'm sure Mangini took some notes when studying AZ on film.

It makes some sense with the NFL increasingly moving toward 3+ WR sets, and TEs who are more like big WRs. The value of hybrid defensive players who can run, cover, and fill against the run is very valuable. Safety is the logical position group to fill that role, and helps explain why we've picked a safety high in the draft 3 years in a row. Reid is traditional free safety, Ward is our slot guy, and Tartt is the hybrid LB/S. It's really not that radical of a move, we're essentially subbing in Tartt for Wilhoite. It becomes a very athletic, fast defense, but they have to be able to remain stout against the run. Otherwise the opposing offense will spread us thin on early downs and run it down our throats.

Before we get too excited about this 4 safety possibility, it's worth noting that AZ's defense ranked 24th in the NFL last year with that approach. 29th against the pass, 13th against the run, 26th in yards given up per play. I think our team is stronger overall in the front 7 than AZ was last year, so maybe we could use this type of defense and get better results. Aldon and Lynch/Brooks on the edge, run-pluggers like Dial, Dorsey, Williams in the middle, Bowman and Tartt in the box, Ward in the slot, Reid and Bethea up top. Could be really effective in certain situations.

Originally posted by thl408:
There were many instances of SEA going 3WR and the 49ers staying in their base 3-4 over the last couple seasons. The 49ers were very afraid of getting run on if they countered SEA's 3WRs with their nickel package. The 49ers would line up one of the OLBs over the slot WR with a safety over the top to help out with coverage on that slot WR. All this so that they didn't have to remove a LB and stay strong on run defense.

Concerning Seattle, while listening to the podcast it was interesting to hear them talk about how Mangini doesn't really like to call a 4-man rush. He likes to call 5+ pressure, and mixes in some 3-man rushes like an off-speed pitch. This in stark contrast to Fangio, who heavily leaned on a 4 man rush.

Against Seattle, I liked our approach to regularly rush 4 and try to contain Wilson in the pocket. I think that's the way to go, and it generally worked. Seattle has owned us recently, but it was never their offense that owned us. We've always held them in check. Last year we held them under 20 points in both losses with a depleted defense. I fear that regularly rushing 5+ leaves us too vulnerable against a master scrambler like Wilson, and rushing 3 is also a bad idea against him.

AZ's 4 safety defense, the one we're possibly trying to duplicate, was a mixed bag against Seattle last year. They played them well @ Seattle in the 1st matchup. The 2nd game in AZ the Cards got absolutely shredded for nearly 600 yards. Completely dominated.

We'll see how it all plays out. I like this hybrid defense idea using multiple safeties, and we might be able to better matchup against Seattle.. We have the players to pull it off, and our base defense should be pretty stout once again. I like that Mangini plans on being a bit more aggressive with sending pressure, but with dominant pass rushers like Aldon and possibly Lynch, maybe he doesn't need to rely on it so heavily like he did in the past. I want him to be smart about it, especially against Seattle.

Originally posted by SofaKing:

Originally posted by thl408:

There were many instances of SEA going 3WR and the 49ers staying in their base 3-4 over the last couple seasons. The 49ers were very afraid of getting run on if they countered SEA's 3WRs with their nickel package. The 49ers would line up one of the OLBs over the slot WR with a safety over the top to help out with coverage on that slot WR. All this so that they didn't have to remove a LB and stay strong on run defense.

Concerning Seattle, while listening to the podcast it was interesting to hear them talk about how Mangini doesn't really like to call a 4-man rush. He likes to call 5+ pressure, and mixes in some 3-man rushes like an off-speed pitch. This in stark contrast to Fangio, who heavily leaned on a 4 man rush.

Against Seattle, I liked our approach to regularly rush 4 and try to contain Wilson in the pocket. I think that's the way to go, and it generally worked. Seattle has owned us recently, but it was never their offense that owned us. We've always held them in check. Last year we held them under 20 points in both losses with a depleted defense. I fear that regularly rushing 5+ leaves us too vulnerable against a master scrambler like Wilson, and rushing 3 is also a bad idea against him.

AZ's 4 safety defense, the one we're possibly trying to duplicate, was a mixed bag against Seattle last year. They played them well @ Seattle in the 1st matchup. The 2nd game in AZ the Cards got absolutely shredded for nearly 600 yards. Completely dominated.

We'll see how it all plays out. I like this hybrid defense idea using multiple safeties, and we might be able to better matchup against Seattle.. We have the players to pull it off, and our base defense should be pretty stout once again. I like that Mangini plans on being a bit more aggressive with sending pressure, but with dominant pass rushers like Aldon and possibly Lynch, maybe he doesn't need to rely on it so heavily like he did in the past. I want him to be smart about it, especially against Seattle.

Yeah I agree with what you and thl were saying. One upside we have compared to AZ is how good our OLB's and DL are against the run. Aldon and Brooks are excellent playing the run, along with Dorsey, Williams, and Dial. If we were to employ the 4 safety look I think we would fare better against the run than AZ for the reasons stated above. Our front 4 could be Aldon, Dorsey, dial, Brooks/lynch. You could play those if your worried about the oposing team running it against you in your 4 safety sub package, and still not lose much pass rush.

I doubt we go with the 4 safety look as frequently as AZ does, but I do think we will use it some with the addition of Tartt, he's the perfect SS/LB hybrid to play that role. If Ward and Tartt play up to their potential then Reid, Bethea, Ward, Tartt are easily the best safety 4some in the league.

One reason to blitz 5 against Seattle is to cut off run lanes for lynch. Having a guy like Tartt fill a gap one play and an ILB the next gives the OL fits.

This will also (hopefully) keep even pressure on Wilson. Fangio often used three against Wilson and that gives him too much room to manuever. He scrambled until there was a coverage breakdown.

If the 5th rusher can take out a receiver at the LOS so much the better!

Originally posted by thl408:
Just had a chance to listen to that podcast and it is indeed very thought provoking. I was amazed that Mangini's defense (when he was HC) was last in the league at how often he came with a standard 4 man rush. I don't know how much of that had to do with RRyan as DC, but Mangini was the HC and obviously allowed it.

Very nice insight into ARI's defense as well and it shines a lot of light into the Ward and Tartt picks, like you said. Ward as the hybrid FS/CB with Tartt as the hybrid SS/LB. I've been watching Ward's tape and he is a very capable CB for a converted safety. He will do just fine in spot duty at slot CB.

Glad you enjoyed it as much as I/we did.

The low number of 4 man rushes sort of fits his mantra...he's either bringing 5 or more or he's dropping them in coverage. And with hybrid players such as Tartt, Ward, Moody, etc., you can create a lot of packages where they stay on the field and help disguise what the intentions are.

And with 4 safeties, this is one way to stay strong against the run while also improving your coverage AND disguise intentions.

It all just makes more sense esp. when you hear the players now talk about the complexity of the schemes and how important it is to understand each others roles in each call.

I'll be honest, I'm really excited about this defense. I have little doubt Mangini learned from Fangio as well regarding only rushing 4 as well coupled with their identical off coverage schemes (esp. pattern matching) already in place and coming from the same school of thought there.

Take that foundation and now add pre and post snap confusion and personnel hybrids and flexibility (i.e. moving players around to create misnatches) that don't tip your hand, if called right and executed properly, this could make for a special defense and one that is highly entertaining to watch.

Now I've got to reconsider my 53 and possibly find another spot for LJ McCray as he's a ST ace but also capable of playing that Robber role as well as Tartt.

Like Baalke said..."Strong down the middle!"

Originally posted by thl408:
Does anyone remember where Merton Hanks would line up when he was playing the hybrid FS/CB role? Was he a slot or outside CB? That hybrid FS/CB role allows the defense to stay in its base when the offense comes with a 3WR look and not suffer anything with regards to run defense. Simply put Ward into the slot, play the other safety in a single high look. The front 7 doesn't come off the field and Ward can hold his own in the slot. SEA loves to run with 11 personnel (3WR), so this is a direct counter to that. Of course, Ward is not the starting FS so this situation hasn't come to fruition yet.

Excellent question. I've always seen Hanks as that hybrid as well esp inside the RZ.

And now with Tartt or Johnson, we can matchup either on someone like Graham (in Ward's slot spot) and be better equipped while not sacrificing anything.