Eric Mangini Thread

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:
......(snipped)
http://www.examiner.com/article/dontae-johnson-enjoys-new-defensive-schemes?cid=rss

Very nice to hear the players are excited. Seems like all the defensive backs (Reid, Bethea, DJ, SWright) have the same thing to say. I think all this excitement makes it obvious that defenders like to dictate and be the aggressor rather than sit back to read and react. As a CB, it will be exciting to know that pressure is being dialed up to force the action from the offense.
This all sounds great, but these blitz packages better be well timed. Or else the CBs will just be left hanging out to dry if there's a blitz that's picked up. ARI was blitz happy last season (2nd highest blitz percentage) and gave up the 3rd most plays of 20+. As well as tied for 3rd for most plays of 40+ given up.
http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&offensiveStatisticCategory=null&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=PASSING_20PLUS_YARDS_EACH&tabSeq=2&season=2014&role=OPP&Submit=Go&archive=true&conference=null&defensiveStatisticCategory=TEAM_PASSING&qualified=false

The teams that gave up the least plays of 20+ were (in order): SEA, BUF, KC, DEN. All four of these teams ranked in the bottom third of the league in blitz percentage.
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2015/02/11/sig-stats-team-blitzing/

There is one big outlier, the Rams. They were #1 in blitz percentage while giving up the 5th fewest plays of 20+. So they really stand out and I hope the 49ers can be like the Rams in how they blitz, but don't give up a lot of chunk plays. I have no context as to why the Rams stick out like this.

I'm just not a believer of blitzing when your front is strong. Now factor in being a more ball-controlled offense that wants to lean more on the run-game and you have an unbalance of offense and defensive philosophy. The defense is willing to take risks that could put us down by 10 points quickly yet the offense wants to be more of a "keep the clock" running offense which usually isn't able to be high scoring.

The only team that I know of that was able to manage two opposite ends of the spectrum philosophy was the 85 Bears. Those teams don't come around up very often.

I think it also plays right into the hands of the offenses these days that are geared with a 3rd WR and shorter passes to counter the blitzes. Aaron Rodgers and most of the top 10 QB's play very well against the blitz. In actuality, they welcome the blitz because it makes their post snap reads easier. PreSnap is more difficult but these QB's can make these post snap reads quick enough. We frustrated higher level QB's because we gave them an easy presnap read but a difficult postsnap read since they had to scan the entire field to look for the open receiver and most of the time, it was to settle underneath with 2+ defenders swarming rather than one player trying to cover the empty spot from a blitz. This made it difficult for teams to gain yards after the catch. When these QB's would lose patience and go big, they were intercepted.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:
......(snipped)
http://www.examiner.com/article/dontae-johnson-enjoys-new-defensive-schemes?cid=rss

Very nice to hear the players are excited. Seems like all the defensive backs (Reid, Bethea, DJ, SWright) have the same thing to say. I think all this excitement makes it obvious that defenders like to dictate and be the aggressor rather than sit back to read and react. As a CB, it will be exciting to know that pressure is being dialed up to force the action from the offense.
This all sounds great, but these blitz packages better be well timed. Or else the CBs will just be left hanging out to dry if there's a blitz that's picked up. ARI was blitz happy last season (2nd highest blitz percentage) and gave up the 3rd most plays of 20+. As well as tied for 3rd for most plays of 40+ given up.
http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&offensiveStatisticCategory=null&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=PASSING_20PLUS_YARDS_EACH&tabSeq=2&season=2014&role=OPP&Submit=Go&archive=true&conference=null&defensiveStatisticCategory=TEAM_PASSING&qualified=false

The teams that gave up the least plays of 20+ were (in order): SEA, BUF, KC, DEN. All four of these teams ranked in the bottom third of the league in blitz percentage.
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2015/02/11/sig-stats-team-blitzing/

There is one big outlier, the Rams. They were #1 in blitz percentage while giving up the 5th fewest plays of 20+. So they really stand out and I hope the 49ers can be like the Rams in how they blitz, but don't give up a lot of chunk plays. I have no context as to why the Rams stick out like this.

Awesome post backed with facts (shocker, I know). One piece to also remember was that AZ adopted the 4 safety defense and became blitz happy out of necessity d/t all the critical injuries they had.

But to your point, if you can get there with 4, like Seattle and us formally, you're going to drop 7 and hover around 20/21st in sacks.

I think Mangini said it best in that he's blitzed 3 times in a game and 30 in another. The opposition and how effective we are (quality) is going to determine the quantity.

Like you said, timing is everything! Fingers crossed...

Blitzing =exposed secondary! I don't think we have the secondary to play one on one.

Originally posted by jonesadrian:

Originally posted by Joecool:
I am very concerned about Mangini's complicated defense. When you have the talent that our players have, you don't need to make it very complicated and you want them to think less. Remember when Nolan was here? His defense was a little more complicated and we blew at least one coverage a game that resulted in big plays or scores.

SEA doesn't run a very complicated defense either. I just don't see the purpose of attacking an offense with extra players when the defensive line is strong.

not to come at you specifically but im kinda tired of people saying this same thing.
our secondary was incredibly complex these past 4 seasons, it was just passive. our defensive line and linebacker assignments were as vanilla as the purest cold stone ice cream.
more opportunity to make plays and more thinking doesn't mean the coverages have to think more, they already did. it means that they know this time there will be blitzes from linebackers and such that will cause the ball to get out quicker which gives them an opportunity to make plays on passes that aren't thrown comfortably. instead of praying its an errant throw from someone who was comfortable in the pocket

don't read too much into more complex. our defense has always been complex on the back 4. the front 7 are just going to be more involved in dictating what the offense can and cannot do

and we need that.

But that's what made it so difficult to opposing QB's. The simplicity of the front also meant that there was not going to be much space under 10 yards. Now the QB must wait for the secondary to reveal itself, which means standing longer in the pocket. Most QB's mental clocks are about to end by the time they determine the secondary. And if they do make a quick underneath throw, we have enough coverage in the front to converge quickly resulting in no RAC.

Now, with blitzing, a QB can make the quick throw. This means, another player is sprinting over to fill the gap of the blitzer. Now you have more one-on-one after the catch matchups. This is what results in more RAC.

Originally posted by pdizo916:
Blitzing =exposed secondary! I don't think we have the secondary to play one on one.

Really? Why not? Can't be for a lack of speed and/or size.

Originally posted by crake49:

Originally posted by pdizo916:
Blitzing =exposed secondary! I don't think we have the secondary to play one on one.

Really? Why not? Can't be for a lack of speed and/or size.

Yeah, I get the impression it's not so much about the blitz but the idea that we're trying to dictate the offense more...pre and post-snap confusion, moving personnel around to create additional confusion, etc. You can STILL blitz and keep two safeties deep too, just in case.

What Johnson is talking about is that as a CB, he'll KNOW when we blitz and as a result, know's he'll be ready to jump the ball as needed. You can still play disciplined while keeping your eye on the ball and being ready for a possible quick throw to your side.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by jonesadrian:

Originally posted by Joecool:
I am very concerned about Mangini's complicated defense. When you have the talent that our players have, you don't need to make it very complicated and you want them to think less. Remember when Nolan was here? His defense was a little more complicated and we blew at least one coverage a game that resulted in big plays or scores.

SEA doesn't run a very complicated defense either. I just don't see the purpose of attacking an offense with extra players when the defensive line is strong.

not to come at you specifically but im kinda tired of people saying this same thing.
our secondary was incredibly complex these past 4 seasons, it was just passive. our defensive line and linebacker assignments were as vanilla as the purest cold stone ice cream.
more opportunity to make plays and more thinking doesn't mean the coverages have to think more, they already did. it means that they know this time there will be blitzes from linebackers and such that will cause the ball to get out quicker which gives them an opportunity to make plays on passes that aren't thrown comfortably. instead of praying its an errant throw from someone who was comfortable in the pocket

don't read too much into more complex. our defense has always been complex on the back 4. the front 7 are just going to be more involved in dictating what the offense can and cannot do

and we need that.

But that's what made it so difficult to opposing QB's. The simplicity of the front also meant that there was not going to be much space under 10 yards. Now the QB must wait for the secondary to reveal itself, which means standing longer in the pocket. Most QB's mental clocks are about to end by the time they determine the secondary. And if they do make a quick underneath throw, we have enough coverage in the front to converge quickly resulting in no RAC.

Now, with blitzing, a QB can make the quick throw. This means, another player is sprinting over to fill the gap of the blitzer. Now you have more one-on-one after the catch matchups. This is what results in more RAC.

disagree. we were predictable. when the pass rush didn't get there with the regular guys we'd get picked apart.
and again. don't read into the pressure as a sign we're going to do it all game. the preaching has been a FLEXIBLE defense. what works for 1 game doesn't mean we're going to do it every game
our identity is going to be coming into a game keying in on the offenses weaknesses and exploiting them just like a offense tries to do a defense. its the same thing. you look at a defense and say ok what can we exploit so lets do this and this.. and usually defenses are what do they do well, so let's try and stop this and this.

for us its going to be what do they struggle with? ok we're going to make them have to do that.

Originally posted by NCommand:
Yeah, I get the impression it's not so much about the blitz but the idea that we're trying to dictate the offense more...pre and post-snap confusion, moving personnel around to create additional confusion, etc. You can STILL blitz and keep two safeties deep too, just in case.

What Johnson is talking about is that as a CB, he'll KNOW when we blitz and as a result, know's he'll be ready to jump the ball as needed. You can still play disciplined while keeping your eye on the ball and being ready for a possible quick throw to your side.

You know, I think we've already seen an example of this in TC. Seems to me a few days ago, there was a blitz, Kaepernick went for a quick out or a hitch or something like that, and somebody jumped the short route for a potential pick-6.

Originally posted by crake49:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Yeah, I get the impression it's not so much about the blitz but the idea that we're trying to dictate the offense more...pre and post-snap confusion, moving personnel around to create additional confusion, etc. You can STILL blitz and keep two safeties deep too, just in case.

What Johnson is talking about is that as a CB, he'll KNOW when we blitz and as a result, know's he'll be ready to jump the ball as needed. You can still play disciplined while keeping your eye on the ball and being ready for a possible quick throw to your side.

You know, I think we've already seen an example of this in TC. Seems to me a few days ago, there was a blitz, Kaepernick went for a quick out or a hitch or something like that, and somebody jumped the short route for a potential pick-6.

Good point...in fact, the secondary has been collecting INT after INT. Just check out the CK thread and how pissed fans are he's throwing so many. LOL

Originally posted by jonesadrian:
disagree. we were predictable. when the pass rush didn't get there with the regular guys we'd get picked apart.
and again. don't read into the pressure as a sign we're going to do it all game. the preaching has been a FLEXIBLE defense. what works for 1 game doesn't mean we're going to do it every game
our identity is going to be coming into a game keying in on the offenses weaknesses and exploiting them just like a offense tries to do a defense. its the same thing. you look at a defense and say ok what can we exploit so lets do this and this.. and usually defenses are what do they do well, so let's try and stop this and this.

for us its going to be what do they struggle with? ok we're going to make them have to do that.

Really how I see it as well. They still have to execute as a unit, gel, mold together, Mangini has to lead 'em correctly, etc. But I love the philosophy. Now, will it work?

Originally posted by NCommand:
Good point...in fact, the secondary has been collecting INT after INT. Just check out the CK thread and how pissed fans are he's throwing so many. LOL

...which is kind of silly considering this is the perfect time for any QB to figure out which throws he should attempt and which he shouldn't.

Originally posted by crake49:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Good point...in fact, the secondary has been collecting INT after INT. Just check out the CK thread and how pissed fans are he's throwing so many. LOL

...which is kind of silly considering this is the perfect time for any QB to figure out which throws he should attempt and which he shouldn't.

Bingo...win-win. Plus, we're blitzing a lot NOW for practice by the defense...and guess what? It's helping the OL a ton too!

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by jonesadrian:
disagree. we were predictable. when the pass rush didn't get there with the regular guys we'd get picked apart.
and again. don't read into the pressure as a sign we're going to do it all game. the preaching has been a FLEXIBLE defense. what works for 1 game doesn't mean we're going to do it every game
our identity is going to be coming into a game keying in on the offenses weaknesses and exploiting them just like a offense tries to do a defense. its the same thing. you look at a defense and say ok what can we exploit so lets do this and this.. and usually defenses are what do they do well, so let's try and stop this and this.

for us its going to be what do they struggle with? ok we're going to make them have to do that.

Really how I see it as well. They still have to execute as a unit, gel, mold together, Mangini has to lead 'em correctly, etc. But I love the philosophy. Now, will it work?

we have talented smart individuals. if we were going from a simple scheme on the back end into this complex one id be worried but its going to stay the same. the only change is going to be with the guys in the short areas which doesn't concern me as much.

Originally posted by Joecool:
I'm just not a believer of blitzing when your front is strong. Now factor in being a more ball-controlled offense that wants to lean more on the run-game and you have an unbalance of offense and defensive philosophy. The defense is willing to take risks that could put us down by 10 points quickly yet the offense wants to be more of a "keep the clock" running offense which usually isn't able to be high scoring.

The only team that I know of that was able to manage two opposite ends of the spectrum philosophy was the 85 Bears. Those teams don't come around up very often.

I think it also plays right into the hands of the offenses these days that are geared with a 3rd WR and shorter passes to counter the blitzes. Aaron Rodgers and most of the top 10 QB's play very well against the blitz. In actuality, they welcome the blitz because it makes their post snap reads easier. PreSnap is more difficult but these QB's can make these post snap reads quick enough. We frustrated higher level QB's because we gave them an easy presnap read but a difficult postsnap read since they had to scan the entire field to look for the open receiver and most of the time, it was to settle underneath with 2+ defenders swarming rather than one player trying to cover the empty spot from a blitz. This made it difficult for teams to gain yards after the catch. When these QB's would lose patience and go big, they were intercepted.

Originally posted by Joecool:
But that's what made it so difficult to opposing QB's. The simplicity of the front also meant that there was not going to be much space under 10 yards. Now the QB must wait for the secondary to reveal itself, which means standing longer in the pocket. Most QB's mental clocks are about to end by the time they determine the secondary. And if they do make a quick underneath throw, we have enough coverage in the front to converge quickly resulting in no RAC.

Now, with blitzing, a QB can make the quick throw. This means, another player is sprinting over to fill the gap of the blitzer. Now you have more one-on-one after the catch matchups. This is what results in more RAC.

Agree with a lot of what you stated in these two posts. We just lost out best pass rusher so the front isn't as strong as it was last week. Fangio and Mangini have different methods of achieving the same goal - confuse. Fangio opted to give the same presnap look over and over and over, then throw a myriad of coverages at the QB. He can do this with a good 4 man pass rush.

Mangini will not have the same luxury and will need to have the option of creative blitz packages. Mangini seems to want to come with a lot of pre-snap looks to confuse. Then probably looks to further confuse post-snap. This results in more complex defensive playcalls (formation, what to do presnap, what to do post snap) Like many have stated, it will be a game by game basis so I suppose if he can apply pressure with 4, he will do that and dial down the blitzes.

Originally posted by jonesadrian:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by jonesadrian:
disagree. we were predictable. when the pass rush didn't get there with the regular guys we'd get picked apart.
and again. don't read into the pressure as a sign we're going to do it all game. the preaching has been a FLEXIBLE defense. what works for 1 game doesn't mean we're going to do it every game
our identity is going to be coming into a game keying in on the offenses weaknesses and exploiting them just like a offense tries to do a defense. its the same thing. you look at a defense and say ok what can we exploit so lets do this and this.. and usually defenses are what do they do well, so let's try and stop this and this.

for us its going to be what do they struggle with? ok we're going to make them have to do that.

Really how I see it as well. They still have to execute as a unit, gel, mold together, Mangini has to lead 'em correctly, etc. But I love the philosophy. Now, will it work?

we have talented smart individuals. if we were going from a simple scheme on the back end into this complex one id be worried but its going to stay the same. the only change is going to be with the guys in the short areas which doesn't concern me as much.

Agreed. No more vanilla in the front 7 and complex on the back end.