Eric Mangini Thread

Originally posted by jonesadrian:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by jonesadrian:

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
no doubt, NC, from a distance, we are double bat screwed. Put a magnifying glass on it, tho, and I like what I see....ok, laugh but I like us better than last yr. Minority opinion, but I feel really upbeat about our coaching staff. Last yr, I did not. and yes, the OL is stil l the big ??? But I like our OL better than last yr when we couldn't pass block. this yr, I think kap actually has a chance, in large part because our coaching staff is going to help coach around our OL weakness. Last yr OL couldn't pass bloc and that was that. This yr the coaches are going to try and coach around that weakness....exactly what I called for last yr... And it never happened. this yr there is hope.

And by 6-8 games in, watch bell and brown move to starters....Brown makes the rock that anchors the R side, and bell becomes that big TE that nobody can stop.

Well offensively I am excited because we won't be putting square pegs into round holes. Whatever is best for us is what we'll do and there wasn't a willingness to do that the past 4 years.

Defensively I was fine with Fangio except when he would wave the white flag and not do the simple things to win (Will not forgive him for bending over in Denver last year and allowing Peyton do to whatever he wanted.. no press coverage, no blitz just straight up back off let them run wild)

Mangini will not do that. He will not limit the players that play on game day. He will use everyone and keep everyone engaged. He will make adjustments and he is trying to take the ball away from them instead of trying to hold a team to as few points as possible and there is a difference.

I got so much crap for calling out Fangio's scheme that game.

You can see the BIG difference with Mangini and he was playing pretty vanilla against him and still worked him...6 points, got smashed, pressured, dove on the ground in the fetal position like a b!tch, hearing the footsteps, throwing up crappy passes, poor decision making, etc.

I was there with you.
Beat the opponent. Not hope for the best.

I get that you guys don't like Fangio's scheme, but it takes athletes to play press. You need CBs that can match up physically with the WRs. I'm sorry, but the DEN WRs were much more talented than the 49er CBs that night and it's not even close. No Cully, Brock first game back from injury, Ward was out, Cook was limited in practice due to injury, and Cox, who is never known for being a press corner. It sounds good on the whiteboard, and perhaps your logic is, "well anything is better than what happened", but you need the horses to pull it off.

Originally posted by thl408:
I get that you guys don't like Fangio's scheme, but it takes athletes to play press. You need CBs that can match up physically with the WRs. I'm sorry, but the DEN WRs were much more talented than the 49er CBs that night and it's not even close. No Cully, Brock first game back from injury, Ward was out, Cook was limited in practice due to injury, and Cox, who is never known for being a press corner. It sounds good on the whiteboard, and perhaps your logic is, "well anything is better than what happened", but you need the horses to pull it off.

This is true. We were pretty much eff'd either way. I think some fans would have rather tried to make life a bit uncomfortable with some pressure and pressure at the LOS on the WR's vs. just making it a simple practice game for Manning who didn't even have to break a sweat...at all. Moot point now though.

PS: You know I loved Fangio's pattern match schemes.

Originally posted by thl408:
I get that you guys don't like Fangio's scheme, but it takes athletes to play press. You need CBs that can match up physically with the WRs. I'm sorry, but the DEN WRs were much more talented than the 49er CBs that night and it's not even close. No Cully, Brock first game back from injury, Ward was out, Cook was limited in practice due to injury, and Cox, who is never known for being a press corner. It sounds good on the whiteboard, and perhaps your logic is, "well anything is better than what happened", but you need the horses to pull it off.

I agree with this. In order to play press your cornerbacks either needs to be physical enough to get a jam on the line and get physical to disrupt the route timing or just be insanely fast ala deion. The average cornerback is 6' 190 lbs in the nfl and wont be able to do it effectively. Even an above average corner like brock is going to get wrecked by guys like Demaryious, johnson, or dez if they try to get physical with them and will get owned by guys like sanders, ty, and julio if they try to backpedal with them.

Dontae johnson is better suited at 6' 2" 200 to play press than anyone we have had in recent years. He has the swag and size to get mean on the line with the better wrs in the league even if he doesnt have lightning speed.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by jonesadrian:

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
no doubt, NC, from a distance, we are double bat screwed. Put a magnifying glass on it, tho, and I like what I see....ok, laugh but I like us better than last yr. Minority opinion, but I feel really upbeat about our coaching staff. Last yr, I did not. and yes, the OL is stil l the big ??? But I like our OL better than last yr when we couldn't pass block. this yr, I think kap actually has a chance, in large part because our coaching staff is going to help coach around our OL weakness. Last yr OL couldn't pass bloc and that was that. This yr the coaches are going to try and coach around that weakness....exactly what I called for last yr... And it never happened. this yr there is hope.

And by 6-8 games in, watch bell and brown move to starters....Brown makes the rock that anchors the R side, and bell becomes that big TE that nobody can stop.

Well offensively I am excited because we won't be putting square pegs into round holes. Whatever is best for us is what we'll do and there wasn't a willingness to do that the past 4 years.

Defensively I was fine with Fangio except when he would wave the white flag and not do the simple things to win (Will not forgive him for bending over in Denver last year and allowing Peyton do to whatever he wanted.. no press coverage, no blitz just straight up back off let them run wild)

Mangini will not do that. He will not limit the players that play on game day. He will use everyone and keep everyone engaged. He will make adjustments and he is trying to take the ball away from them instead of trying to hold a team to as few points as possible and there is a difference.

I got so much crap for calling out Fangio's scheme that game.

You can see the BIG difference with Mangini and he was playing pretty vanilla against him and still worked him...6 points, got smashed, pressured, dove on the ground in the fetal position like a b!tch, hearing the footsteps, throwing up crappy passes, poor decision making, etc.

I remember that. So we can excuse the 49ers for 'not scheming' and that's why Kap's pass pro is crap, but when Bow blitz's and gets pressure it's great scheming by Mangini? Keep in mind that Bow was not in the game last season and neither was the 49ers best press corner. Not every corner can play press. It's not as simple as saying "hey go press Demarius Thomas", and that will contain the DEN offense.
Here's a reminder of what happened when Brock tried to press DThomas. Cox is not a press corner. Cully was out with an injury.

Baalke should've kept one of the two Cully or Cox, IMO. It's not like Cox was that expensive in the market either. Hopefully Acker, Reaser or Dontae Johnson will step up and be the #1 CB, I just don't have as much faith in Brock like most do on here.

Originally posted by NCommand:
Yeah, truth is, Brock was still ailing and was starting for the first time...can't remember who the other CB was...was Ward even in there? We were pretty depleted in that game with injuries IIRC and Fangio just called off all game and Manning didn't break a sweat. All passes out quick...almost all receivers were wide open. It did have that feel we just gave Manning a pass on his historic night. Context is important. I still felt Fangio should have just said, "Screw it...we're bringing the heat and jam-pressing with the personnel we do have and make Manning beat us," but that's just my mindset every time against Manning as I believe the book has always been written on him this way. He probably still would have carved us up but at least it would 'feel' like we gave it a go.

That's also a good example of press...with a 100% clean release. I believe the discussion we had during that game was jam-press at the LOS...squaring up and trying to disrupt the timing of the play, reroute the WR, force him to work through you, etc. ala Seattle's DB's at times.

Do you think that any CB can play press bump/run versus any WR, or do you think there is a matchup element to it? If you believe that Cox/gimpy Brock can press DThomas/ESanders at the LoS and win anything close to 50% of the time, then we will agree to disagree.

Quick question, when Mangini was DC in New England did the CB's play press coverage in his defense, I could've sworn Asante Samuel making all those big plays in zone coverage??

Originally posted by BoldRedandGold:

Originally posted by thl408:
I get that you guys don't like Fangio's scheme, but it takes athletes to play press. You need CBs that can match up physically with the WRs. I'm sorry, but the DEN WRs were much more talented than the 49er CBs that night and it's not even close. No Cully, Brock first game back from injury, Ward was out, Cook was limited in practice due to injury, and Cox, who is never known for being a press corner. It sounds good on the whiteboard, and perhaps your logic is, "well anything is better than what happened", but you need the horses to pull it off.

I agree with this. In order to play press your cornerbacks either needs to be physical enough to get a jam on the line and get physical to disrupt the route timing or just be insanely fast ala deion. The average cornerback is 6' 190 lbs in the nfl and wont be able to do it effectively. Even an above average corner like brock is going to get wrecked by guys like Demaryious, johnson, or dez if they try to get physical with them and will get owned by guys like sanders, ty, and julio if they try to backpedal with them.

Dontae johnson is better suited at 6' 2" 200 to play press than anyone we have had in recent years. He has the swag and size to get mean on the line with the better wrs in the league even if he doesnt have lightning speed.

I don't buy that 100%. Technique is just as important in jam-press or basic press (with a clean release). Just where you line up in tight press can be just as effective as a jam at the snap as both could force the timing to change or a reroute of the WR. That said, I think we have some good press CB's now with Acker, Johnson, Brock, etc. I don't think it was a coincidence we started Johnson and Acker that game.

My point is you don't need to be 6'2" 200 pounds to be an effective press CB or physically effective at the LOS.


I'm not sure about Reaser or Ward yet. Anyone have insight?

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by jonesadrian:

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
no doubt, NC, from a distance, we are double bat screwed. Put a magnifying glass on it, tho, and I like what I see....ok, laugh but I like us better than last yr. Minority opinion, but I feel really upbeat about our coaching staff. Last yr, I did not. and yes, the OL is stil l the big ??? But I like our OL better than last yr when we couldn't pass block. this yr, I think kap actually has a chance, in large part because our coaching staff is going to help coach around our OL weakness. Last yr OL couldn't pass bloc and that was that. This yr the coaches are going to try and coach around that weakness....exactly what I called for last yr... And it never happened. this yr there is hope.

And by 6-8 games in, watch bell and brown move to starters....Brown makes the rock that anchors the R side, and bell becomes that big TE that nobody can stop.

Well offensively I am excited because we won't be putting square pegs into round holes. Whatever is best for us is what we'll do and there wasn't a willingness to do that the past 4 years.

Defensively I was fine with Fangio except when he would wave the white flag and not do the simple things to win (Will not forgive him for bending over in Denver last year and allowing Peyton do to whatever he wanted.. no press coverage, no blitz just straight up back off let them run wild)

Mangini will not do that. He will not limit the players that play on game day. He will use everyone and keep everyone engaged. He will make adjustments and he is trying to take the ball away from them instead of trying to hold a team to as few points as possible and there is a difference.

I got so much crap for calling out Fangio's scheme that game.

You can see the BIG difference with Mangini and he was playing pretty vanilla against him and still worked him...6 points, got smashed, pressured, dove on the ground in the fetal position like a b!tch, hearing the footsteps, throwing up crappy passes, poor decision making, etc.

I remember that. So we can excuse the 49ers for 'not scheming' and that's why Kap's pass pro is crap, but when Bow blitz's and gets pressure it's great scheming by Mangini? Keep in mind that Bow was not in the game last season and neither was the 49ers best press corner. Not every corner can play press. It's not as simple as saying "hey go press Demarius Thomas", and that will contain the DEN offense.
Here's a reminder of what happened when Brock tried to press DThomas. Cox is not a press corner. Cully was out with an injury.

no that's not it at all.
if there is 1 thing you have to do against the broncos is redirect routes and put pressure on manning and i didn't see us make a real effort to try and do that all game.

the argument isn't that we didn't have all the personnel we needed to press. it's that we offered little tn no resistance in the form of pass rush bringing extra most of the time etc etc..

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by OnTheClock:
In recent interviews I recall one of the defensive players talking about Mangini's scheme is specifically designed to cause TURNOVERS. I like that.

Its riverboat gambling style defense, it will definitely up the turnovers but will also result in some big plays for the offense, less conservative means less margin for error.

its not riverboat gambling. we're not taking huge risks most of the time. we're run blitzing on run downs. playing coverage on 3rd down. baiting qb's into hot reads. we're not really gambling the entire thing is pre snap confusion. that's it.

its been pretty straight forward

Originally posted by thl408:
I get that you guys don't like Fangio's scheme, but it takes athletes to play press. You need CBs that can match up physically with the WRs. I'm sorry, but the DEN WRs were much more talented than the 49er CBs that night and it's not even close. No Cully, Brock first game back from injury, Ward was out, Cook was limited in practice due to injury, and Cox, who is never known for being a press corner. It sounds good on the whiteboard, and perhaps your logic is, "well anything is better than what happened", but you need the horses to pull it off.

I never said i didn't like fangio's scheme. i loved fangio's scheme especially his defensive back field scheme. i didn't like his unwillingness to use everybody and i didn't like his unwillingness to blitz when every time he decided to dial up blitzes in big moments we made game changing plays.
i had no problem with fangio's scheme at all. i had some problems with his play calling and easing up a little bit but im not at all against him and what he did here. just to set the record straight.

Originally posted by Kolohe:
Quick question, when Mangini was DC in New England did the CB's play press coverage in his defense, I could've sworn Asante Samuel making all those big plays in zone coverage??

lol why has this turned into a press coverage discussion? we were talking about 1 isolated game over a 4 year span not the entire philosophy of the coach lol

Originally posted by NCommand:
I don't buy that 100%. Technique is just as important in jam-press or basic press (with a clean release). Just where you line up in tight press can be just as effective as a jam at the snap as both could force the timing to change or a reroute of the WR. That said, I think we have some good press CB's now with Acker, Johnson, Brock, etc. I don't think it was a coincidence we started Johnson and Acker that game.

My point is you don't need to be 6'2" 200 pounds to be an effective press CB or physically effective at the LOS.


I'm not sure about Reaser or Ward yet. Anyone have insight?

Top corners in the league
Sherman 6'3" 195
Browner 6'4" 224
Revis 5"11 200 (4.38 40 yard dash)
Harris 5"10 211
Davis 5:11 208
Talib 6"1 205
Peterson 6"1 220
Norman 6"0 195

49ers current corners
Johnson 6"2" 200
Acker 6"0 195
Reaser 5"10 189
Brock 5:10 197

49ers past corners
Brown 5"11 190
Culliver 6"0 199
Rogers 6"0 192

With the exception of norman and rogers in his prime the best corners tended to either be bigger than the average nfl corner or faster (Revis).

Not saying brock cannot be an effective press corner at 5'10 197 but he is at least a couple inches shorter or 10-20 lbs lighter than the other great corners currently playing.

The rest of the 49ers corners will likely struggle in press as they are just average in physical measurements.

Ill also throw in asomugha who was widely considered as a great press corner before falling off the planet earth.

6"2" 210

Originally posted by BoldRedandGold:

Originally posted by NCommand:
I don't buy that 100%. Technique is just as important in jam-press or basic press (with a clean release). Just where you line up in tight press can be just as effective as a jam at the snap as both could force the timing to change or a reroute of the WR. That said, I think we have some good press CB's now with Acker, Johnson, Brock, etc. I don't think it was a coincidence we started Johnson and Acker that game.

My point is you don't need to be 6'2" 200 pounds to be an effective press CB or physically effective at the LOS.


I'm not sure about Reaser or Ward yet. Anyone have insight?

Top corners in the league
Sherman 6'3" 195
Browner 6'4" 224
Revis 5"11 200 (4.38 40 yard dash)
Harris 5"10 211
Davis 5:11 208
Talib 6"1 205
Peterson 6"1 220
Norman 6"0 195

49ers current corners
Johnson 6"2" 200
Acker 6"0 195
Reaser 5"10 189
Brock 5:10 197

49ers past corners
Brown 5"11 190
Culliver 6"0 199
Rogers 6"0 192

With the exception of norman and rogers in his prime the best corners tended to either be bigger than the average nfl corner or faster (Revis).

Not saying brock cannot be an effective press corner at 5'10 197 but he is at least a couple inches shorter or 10-20 lbs lighter than the other great corners currently playing.

The rest of the 49ers corners will likely struggle in press as they are just average in physical measurements.

Ill also throw in asomugha who was widely considered as a great press corner before falling off the planet earth.

6"2" 210

Thanks for the research. No doubt size can certainly be an asset for sure in press (or electric make-up speed), that is just one aspect to being an effective press CB. It's a bit of a moot point b/c we're not going to run press exclusively. You'll see various personnel matchups, you'll see CB's lined up in press and then back off just before the snap and the reverse, you'll see press with a clean release, you'll see a CB square up and one-arm jam a WR...two arm jam and attack the WR like Browner in the Superbowl on the INT, you'll see one CB in press and the other in off coverage, etc. And then there is technique...HOW the CB not only presses but where he lines up within it (scheme/tactics). There's a lot more that goes into it than just size or speed...but it CAN certainly help. The good news is that both Johnson and Acker have gone on record saying that they both love press. And IIRC, I believe thl408 has recognized Brock overall as a good press CB too? Maybe not...not 100% sure about that. And not sure about Ward or Reaser...small sample size on both.

What are your thoughts on Brock, Ward and Reaser...maybe Wright too? Obviously we both can probably agree that Acker and Johnson are our best fits for more press than not.

Originally posted by jonesadrian:
lol why has this turned into a press coverage discussion? we were talking about 1 isolated game over a 4 year span not the entire philosophy of the coach lol

When you and NC made the following posts. Where NC referenced the "so much crap", he is referring to me and the conversation he and I had.

Originally posted by jonesadrian:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by jonesadrian:

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
no doubt, NC, from a distance, we are double bat screwed. Put a magnifying glass on it, tho, and I like what I see....ok, laugh but I like us better than last yr. Minority opinion, but I feel really upbeat about our coaching staff. Last yr, I did not. and yes, the OL is stil l the big ??? But I like our OL better than last yr when we couldn't pass block. this yr, I think kap actually has a chance, in large part because our coaching staff is going to help coach around our OL weakness. Last yr OL couldn't pass bloc and that was that. This yr the coaches are going to try and coach around that weakness....exactly what I called for last yr... And it never happened. this yr there is hope.

And by 6-8 games in, watch bell and brown move to starters....Brown makes the rock that anchors the R side, and bell becomes that big TE that nobody can stop.

Well offensively I am excited because we won't be putting square pegs into round holes. Whatever is best for us is what we'll do and there wasn't a willingness to do that the past 4 years.

Defensively I was fine with Fangio except when he would wave the white flag and not do the simple things to win (Will not forgive him for bending over in Denver last year and allowing Peyton do to whatever he wanted.. no press coverage, no blitz just straight up back off let them run wild)

Mangini will not do that. He will not limit the players that play on game day. He will use everyone and keep everyone engaged. He will make adjustments and he is trying to take the ball away from them instead of trying to hold a team to as few points as possible and there is a difference.

I got so much crap for calling out Fangio's scheme that game.

You can see the BIG difference with Mangini and he was playing pretty vanilla against him and still worked him...6 points, got smashed, pressured, dove on the ground in the fetal position like a b!tch, hearing the footsteps, throwing up crappy passes, poor decision making, etc.

I was there with you.
Beat the opponent. Not hope for the best.

Originally posted by jonesadrian:
no that's not it at all.
if there is 1 thing you have to do against the broncos is redirect routes and put pressure on manning and i didn't see us make a real effort to try and do that all game.

the argument isn't that we didn't have all the personnel we needed to press. it's that we offered little tn no resistance in the form of pass rush bringing extra most of the time etc etc..

I was speaking specifically to press bump and run and how you and NC wanted to see it versus DEN (I bolded it above). If you are referencing more blitzes, then I will agree with you on that. I was chillin until you guys brought up last year's game and how much "crap" you were given from me.

Originally posted by thl408:
When you and NC made the following posts. Where NC referenced the "so much crap", he is referring to me and the conversation he and I had.

I was speaking specifically to press bump and run and how you and NC wanted to see it versus DEN (I bolded it above). If you are referencing more blitzes, then I will agree with you on that. I was chillin until you guys brought up last year's game and how much "crap" you were given from me.

No worries thl408. I wasn't specifically talking about you...while we disagreed a bit at the time in philosophy/approach to game planning for Manning (press was part of it), there was another poster that REALLY went nuts over this topic IIRC. It wasn't you for sure though. You made and still make a sound point esp. in context.