Jacksonville Jaguar Arik Armstead-DT Thread

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by Izyniner:

Originally posted by ImAlwaysRight:

We should do it the Patriots way. Let guys go when they're starting to make lots of money, draft well, sign cheap replacement, and supplement the team w draft picks. This only works if the team draft well and nothing they've shown so far say they cant do it.

The Patriots system only works because they have a hall of fame qb. Without Brady they would be running a completely different system.

I think it works because of the coach, and the coach saw a 6th rounder that could play QB.

In other words, excellent player evaluations. Dont forget Solomon Thomas. Hes looks great recently, got a sack in the Vikings game, as a possible replacement for Arik.

The point is, you have to pick and choose the stars you want to play, because the Salary Cap is specifically designed for preventing teams from retaining all their super stars. Bellicheat doesnt fight that, but rather goes along with it, and hes had great success in doing so. I'm just saying look what he has done and fit it to our situatuon.

That's great and all but take Brady out of the equation and they are just another team trying to find A franchise qb to get them over the hump.

Originally posted by okdkid:

Originally posted by NYniner85:
Dude loves this area and is from here. He does a lot in Sacramento for that city. IMO that will play a part in where he goes, outside of just money. I mean if some teams throws him $100M then I totally get it lol...the fact that he didn't make a pro-bowl kinda shows you were the NFL has him right now though.

3 yr deal with a good part of if GTD makes sense for both sides (3yrs $40ishM) if he balls out, he will still be under 30 when he hits FA again (example Calais Campbell).

Why would he do that deal? That's crazy. He gets almost half of that just on the tag.

He's not gonna get the money you keep saying he's gonna get IMO. He's only produced good numbers this yr. Outside of that he's been somewhat of a disappointment (for many different reasons).

I keep pointing out Sheldon Richardson's deal. He was DROY and a pro-bowler prior. He's been over the span of his career a better player than AA. He just got a 3 yr $37M deal. Not sure why you assume AA is gonna get elite money off of one yr of good play surrounded by elite talent?

if someone offers him elite money then good for him go get it. I don't think he will, not to the tune of the $80GTD you talked about

I think it's somewhere between Richardson and Jarrett's deal.

Originally posted by jcs:
Seeing this teams track record with the 5th year option and with solly being their pick I have my doubts they let him walk. Ford is nearly a $5 million dollar dead cap hit after 2020. Jimmy's last 3 years go 26, 27, 27 million. Considering new qb contacts are expected to hit upwards of $40 million per season this offseason there is no real potential to save restructuring imo. The papers say kittles new contract is looking at $11.1 million a year.

-No chance they're paying Thomas $15m for a 5th yr option. stop.

-Yes Ford's DM is $4.8M BUT the money they save is $12.8M.

-what do you mean there's no real potential to save in restructuring? They can save $19M this upcoming yr according to AB. Great they spread out his signing bonus money over the course of the next couple seasons. It will hurt the long-term cap, but if he's the man LT who cares? It's not like they're using that new cap space to sign old players that don't plan to be in SF for a while. These are guys coming off rookie deals. He would still be under that $40M per season that some QBs will hit (add in cap increases after the CBA and SF looking to have a ton of space come 2022 according to AB).

-$11.1M for Kittle is on point. That's still a value based on what he does for this team. Tyrell Williams makes $11M a yr and who would you rather have? The TE position hasn't really caught up to the rest of the league in pay (like RB).

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by jcs:
Seeing this teams track record with the 5th year option and with solly being their pick I have my doubts they let him walk. Ford is nearly a $5 million dollar dead cap hit after 2020. Jimmy's last 3 years go 26, 27, 27 million. Considering new qb contacts are expected to hit upwards of $40 million per season this offseason there is no real potential to save restructuring imo. The papers say kittles new contract is looking at $11.1 million a year.

$11 million is how much the Cards will be paying a 37 year old Larry Fitzgerald. $11 million for Kittle would be a steal and then some. Especially since we're coming up on a new CBA and with the league pushing hard for a 17 week season, its thought that they will be willing to allow for a significant bump the salary cap going forward.

agreed

Originally posted by Heroism:
This, this, this. There is no logical explanation to break up this DL right now. The team can afford it, and AA just turned 26 years old. His best years are ahead of him.

And FYI, this is coming from someone who has been one of AA's harshest critics since he was drafted. But the proof is on the field. The man has become a monster.

totally agree. SF can score points with day 3 guys and backup caliber talent. We've seen it all this yr. Not one single player who scored a TD this yr was a 1st RD pick.

Put cash into the defense and QB. That DL is a main reason they're were they are. None of these guys are old either. AA should get paid BUT I'm not gonna make him one of the highest paid DT in football either. I'm sure there's a in the middle there somewhere for a guy that wants to stay here.

I don't know how we can't resign him, he took the full 5 years to develop but man oh man did he develop (also stay healthy). He's a must resign, our DL needs to be the focal point for years to come. Kittle, Defo, and AA are truly the ones that need to be resigned. We can work around every other position.

Originally posted by NYniner85:
He's not gonna get the money you keep saying he's gonna get IMO.

Ok, but that deal makes no sense. He can just sit on the franchise tag and bag half of that in one season...guaranteed. And then either get tagged again or hit the open market in 2021 where he is will be a virtual lock to cash in. There is no reason for him to accept a deal that effectively buys out half of his prime with mediocre money.

He is already making $9m this year and has vastly outplayed this year's contract. Why would he take a slightly higher deal for a longer period? I just don't get it. He plays a premium position. He wants to be here, but he's not stupid.

Originally posted by okdkid:

Originally posted by NYniner85:
He's not gonna get the money you keep saying he's gonna get IMO.

Ok, but that deal makes no sense. He can just sit on the franchise tag and bag half of that in one season...guaranteed. And then either get tagged again or hit the open market in 2021 where is will be a virtual lock to cash in. There is no reason for him to accept a deal that effectively buys out half of his prime with mediocre money.

He's not virtually locked into anything with his injury history. It's football. And $13+M a yr is not mediocre money for a dude that's only had one good yr. That puts him top 5 in per yr earnings for a 4-3 DT.

Throw in it being a 3 yr deal SO while still in his prime he could make even more bank before he turns 30.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by okdkid:

Originally posted by NYniner85:
He's not gonna get the money you keep saying he's gonna get IMO.

Ok, but that deal makes no sense. He can just sit on the franchise tag and bag half of that in one season...guaranteed. And then either get tagged again or hit the open market in 2021 where is will be a virtual lock to cash in. There is no reason for him to accept a deal that effectively buys out half of his prime with mediocre money.

He's not virtually locked into anything with his injury history. It's football. And $13+M a yr is not mediocre money for a dude that's only had one good yr. That puts him top 5 in per yr earnings for a 4-3 DT.

Throw in it being a 3 yr deal SO while still in his prime he could make even more bank before he turns 30.

I don't see it. Perhaps if that deal is 100% guaranteed.

Ooh, now that's a more interesting conversation. In the event that he's tagged, his agent is 100% going to argue that he should get tagged as an edge rusher and not DT.

Originally posted by Heroism:
Ooh, now that's a more interesting conversation. In the event that he's tagged, his agent is 100% going to argue that he should get tagged as an edge rusher and not DT.

Yes, that's a given for a LTD. Though, there is a snap count % they use for determination on the tag.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
People need to stop going back to the Patriots as guidance. Belichick let Chandler Jones go, a guy that has gotten 60 sacks in 4 seasons since leaving New England and they barely skipped a beat. Their results are not applicable to other teams.

Belichick is the great equalizer on defense. He can make do with lesser players on defense the same way Shanahan can scheme around lesser players on offense. The Patriots also have Brady who up until this season could make pretty much anyone work on offense.

Saleh is not Belichick. His defense needs that dominant front four and they have it. No reason to break it up just because.

I think you're still refusing to accept what is plain to see in the game film. Armstead has developed into a very good DL with the full toolbox of skills. You don't just let a guy like that walk away after you invested years into developing him.

Its not like the 49ers need a ton of upgrades. If they run it back with pretty much the same roster, they are in the playoffs again next year. Rather than subtracting from the DL they should be looking to press their advantage by adding better depth and a much stronger edge rotation. You add an explosive rookie edge rusher to go with Ford, Bosa, Armstead, Buckner, Jones and a couple more guys and you can count on further wrecking offenses next season.

If you are going to spend. Spend it on edge rushers, not DT's. Now Arik, granted can play both, but between a Dee Ford (for example) and an Arik, I'd pay Dee Ford. Here's why. Edge rushers are impact players - just really one position was upgraded (Cassius to Bosa) and whalla you have a defense that's #2 vs last year where you had a defense that's pretty much dead last in each category. DT's aren't as impactful as DE's. Green Bay's defense is pretty average but they are in the playoffs because a big factor in that is their edge rushers.

Defense isn't offense, and I will grant you that. What makes Bellicheat different from most other coaches (who are either offense or defense oriented) is his ability to scheme the offense as well as being an outstanding defensive coach. You look at guys like Nolan and Riviera who are great defensive coaches, but can't scheme offense and are held hostage to their OC"s. No so Bellicheat. The guy knows his *offense* and defense. Kyle definitely knows his offense, and I also say he knows his defense. I think he took a job with Dan Quinn to learn the Seifert/Carroll Nickle defense, because it's a simple scheme. I think Kyle was instrumental in Saleh's development as a DC. I think Kyle was instrumental in welding the Wide 9 and the 4-3/3-4 under together.

The point I'm making is that Kittle and Buckner are the targets in my opinion to hold on to. Those two are going to command a lot of cap space. Dee Ford is already getting a big chunk of the cap. Jimmy, same thing. It doesn't take a lot of guaranteed contracts to get into cap hell, just a couple, and you are there. I would put a competitive offer for Arik, but he's going to get a boatload of money because he plays DE as well as DT. I think the Patriot Way is a blueprint for what we can do, and because of Kyle's unique offensive coaching ability and his all around coaching skills, I can't see why the Patriot Way can't be the 49er way.

Originally posted by okdkid:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by okdkid:

Originally posted by NYniner85:
He's not gonna get the money you keep saying he's gonna get IMO.

Ok, but that deal makes no sense. He can just sit on the franchise tag and bag half of that in one season...guaranteed. And then either get tagged again or hit the open market in 2021 where is will be a virtual lock to cash in. There is no reason for him to accept a deal that effectively buys out half of his prime with mediocre money.

He's not virtually locked into anything with his injury history. It's football. And $13+M a yr is not mediocre money for a dude that's only had one good yr. That puts him top 5 in per yr earnings for a 4-3 DT.

Throw in it being a 3 yr deal SO while still in his prime he could make even more bank before he turns 30.

I don't see it. Perhaps if that deal is 100% guaranteed.

no player gets 100% guaranteed multi yr contracts unless you're a QB (only happened once).

Again that deal makes him top 5 per yr at his position. He makes good cash, helps the team, get's to play on a top end DL, get's to stay home and help his community (which he's all about), and still gets to hit FA in his prime. Maybe throw some incentives in there to boost it up.

He's not making elite money for one yr of good play.

Originally posted by Giedi:
If you are going to spend. Spend it on edge rushers, not DT's. Now Arik, granted can play both, but between a Dee Ford (for example) and an Arik, I'd pay Dee Ford. Here's why. Edge rushers are impact players - just really one position was upgraded (Cassius to Bosa) and whalla you have a defense that's #2 vs last year where you had a defense that's pretty much dead last in each category. DT's aren't as impactful as DE's. Green Bay's defense is pretty average but they are in the playoffs because a big factor in that is their edge rushers.

Defense isn't offense, and I will grant you that. What makes Bellicheat different from most other coaches (who are either offense or defense oriented) is his ability to scheme the offense as well as being an outstanding defensive coach. You look at guys like Nolan and Riviera who are great defensive coaches, but can't scheme offense and are held hostage to their OC"s. No so Bellicheat. The guy knows his *offense* and defense. Kyle definitely knows his offense, and I also say he knows his defense. I think he took a job with Dan Quinn to learn the Seifert/Carroll Nickle defense, because it's a simple scheme. I think Kyle was instrumental in Saleh's development as a DC. I think Kyle was instrumental in welding the Wide 9 and the 4-3/3-4 under together.

The point I'm making is that Kittle and Buckner are the targets in my opinion to hold on to. Those two are going to command a lot of cap space. Dee Ford is already getting a big chunk of the cap. Jimmy, same thing. It doesn't take a lot of guaranteed contracts to get into cap hell, just a couple, and you are there. I would put a competitive offer for Arik, but he's going to get a boatload of money because he plays DE as well as DT. I think the Patriot Way is a blueprint for what we can do, and because of Kyle's unique offensive coaching ability and his all around coaching skills, I can't see why the Patriot Way can't be the 49er way.

They can hold onto everyone.

Originally posted by Giedi:
If you are going to spend. Spend it on edge rushers, not DT's

Tell that to Minnesota. Spending on the edges while largely neglecting the middle has left them a defense vulnerable to be run on all day. And Armstead has been able to play both on the edge and inside. He's been absolutely vital to this teams success. Having him and Buckner together is a luxury that the team can absolutely afford for at least the next few years. How many teams can throw out two 6'7" behemoths to stop the run and get after the QB? There's just no good logical or financial reasoning behind jettisoning Armstead just as he's hitting his potential.