Jacksonville Jaguar Arik Armstead-DT Thread

This is a really tough call for the front office. If they sign AA to a long term deal worth 12-15 mil per year, they would have about $50 mil tied up in just the 4 defensive line starters. That's about 1/4 of the projected cap. How are we going to sign the receivers, DBs and O linemen that everyone agrees we need. Very few teams ever invest one quarter of their salary cap in 4 defensive players.

If AA gets his contract, you know Buckner is going to want his and then Bosa's agent will want to extend. If Jimmy has a good or better year next year, how much more is he going to want when you look at what QBs are getting now. I'd love to have him back but I'm not sure they can make it work without limiting what we can do with the rest of the roster. You always want to have a little extra in case someone gets hurt and you have to rent a guy for the year.

Totally agree ^

Do wonder if Kyle says f**k it keep the defense together and I'll keep trying to find gems on offense... not saying it's the best strategy but I could understand if they end up doing it that way... I mean, we keep picking WRs one of ems bound to hit right? We already hit one in Deebo and we may already have #2 in Hurd....Goodwin, while disappointing lately, overall was a good signing at the time for what we got out of him. Kyle found another solid/decent WR in Bourne and another gem in Taylor in the 5th round (before the injury stuff). (Not saying they're great, just evidence of Kyle finding WRs). Especially having Kittle, and our run game will probably always be top 10 at least as long as Kyle's here. Again not saying I think it's the best way just saying I can see if that's the way they decide to do it.

Originally posted by 91til:
Totally agree ^

Do wonder if Kyle says f**k it keep the defense together and I'll keep trying to find gems on offense... not saying it's the best strategy but I could understand if they end up doing it that way... I mean, we keep picking WRs one of ems bound to hit right? We already hit one in Deebo and we may already have #2 in Hurd....Goodwin, while disappointing lately, overall was a good signing at the time for what we got out of him. Kyle found another solid/decent WR in Bourne and another gem in Taylor in the 5th round (before the injury stuff). (Not saying they're great, just evidence of Kyle finding WRs). Especially having Kittle, and our run game will probably always be top 10 at least as long as Kyle's here. Again not saying I think it's the best way just saying I can see if that's the way they decide to do it.

That may be what he's thinking. I hate to bring up NE but that's the formula they used for 20 years. Pay the defense and make solid players out of O linemen with good coaching. NE never really paid RBs or wide receivers other than Moss for a year or was it 2. Brady always was a little underpaid too.

If the defense is good enough then you can get by without high paid stars on the offense. But the D has to be really good and deep enough that they don't wear down in the 4th quarter.

Originally posted by TheGore49er:

Originally posted by TheGore49er:

Originally posted by SisterFister:

Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
Is armstead the odd man out or Ford? Hes more expensive than Armstead and he didnt really help us after november. He had 8 weeks of rest and didnt really influence the super bowl. Thats sobering. We cant invest 17m for 230 snaps. Just cant do it. There has to be a game plan to keep him high functioning next year. Or he needs to restructure big time. And theres our cap room to sign armstead.

Ford isn't getting cut this year. His cap hit is 15.9 million and the Niners would have to eat 6.8 million in dead cap if they do. Cutting Ford is more practical next season with a 17.6 million cap hit and the 49ers eat only 4.8 million but gain 12.8 million in cap space.

Ummm...why are u fisting your sister?

Is that like a country music band? Im scared to google it. But i do need answers.

Haven't slept in 2 days, just thinking about this...

Originally posted by English:

Originally posted by Lott94:

If DJ Jones medicals show no damage, I'd let Armstead go, and lock up Jones. Jones has been getting better every year, and should be cheaper if he does a contract now. Draft an edge rusher in the draft, and rotate him with Ford and Bosa.

Mmm. I want to keep AA but this would be a fair plan B. When you say "let him go" do you mean just let him walk?

Franchise and then trade Armstead. I like Armstead, and yes the 49ers can be creative with the cap, but you can't invest on 2 high priced DTs.
I believe you can afford and need one high impact player on every level of the defense. Buckner is on the DL. LB Warner at the rate he's progressing will be making Wagner money in 2 years. Sherman is your impact player for the DBs.
A healthy Jones and Blair IMO will cost less annually than Armstead. Of course coming back healthy will be key for those 2.

AA already putting in work for this next season.

Originally posted by CatchMaster80:

Originally posted by 91til:

Totally agree ^

Do wonder if Kyle says f**k it keep the defense together and I'll keep trying to find gems on offense... not saying it's the best strategy but I could understand if they end up doing it that way... I mean, we keep picking WRs one of ems bound to hit right? We already hit one in Deebo and we may already have #2 in Hurd....Goodwin, while disappointing lately, overall was a good signing at the time for what we got out of him. Kyle found another solid/decent WR in Bourne and another gem in Taylor in the 5th round (before the injury stuff). (Not saying they're great, just evidence of Kyle finding WRs). Especially having Kittle, and our run game will probably always be top 10 at least as long as Kyle's here. Again not saying I think it's the best way just saying I can see if that's the way they decide to do it.

That may be what he's thinking. I hate to bring up NE but that's the formula they used for 20 years. Pay the defense and make solid players out of O linemen with good coaching. NE never really paid RBs or wide receivers other than Moss for a year or was it 2. Brady always was a little underpaid too.

If the defense is good enough then you can get by without high paid stars on the offense. But the D has to be really good and deep enough that they don't wear down in the 4th quarter.

One of the staff posted something similar and i answered it like i will this. Arik is an outside / inside stud. How many of those are there in the NFL? Not many. Well, we do have another in Nick. The question about dropping $50 mil on the DL? We get rid of Arik and we spend the next 4 yrs trying to replace him and I think that is bad reasoning. For $50 mil per we end up with the $100 mil DL...nobody else has one. And if you want to get back to SB, well that is the one best way. Impenetrable DL...that can also knock the qB on his keaster.

I was stoked with the signing of Dee. He has been a stud for us. But i never imagined he would have sooo much down time. I thot we would be ok and then come SB, we got solly and Zettel playing half the time in the 2nd half.. How much time was Dee out there? Had he been in, we would have been golden. Instead we had Solly and zettel. So there's my answer. Keep Nick, Buck , Arik, and use DJ, Blair when healed up. If you want a speed rusher, draft one. Let kyle keep running WRs/TEs in and out til we find another Kittle (maybe we have one in Dwelley). But keep that $100 mil DL together and if one goes it should be the guy who played a lot less snaps than anyone else...Dee. If contract wise we have to keep him another yr,, ok, fine. But playing just part time when healthy just doesn't cut it. SB proved that.

If Dee could be healthy guaranteed, fine. Thing is he can't. So if you have to cut someone (or trade him), there's your guy. Same for Solomon, who i like...but he can't carry a team like Arik , nick and buck can. So keep that DL together , eat the $50 mil and just say that is our $100 mil DL. Paying 25% of cap for the quality of that DL? That's a bargain and worth every penny. We've got pairs of picks in rd 5 or 5, 6 or maybe 5, 6 and 7...can't remember. But find another DJ or Blair there. Keep the D together if you want to return to and win the SB , tho.

I bichthed and moaned about having 8-10 DTs, depending on how you count them. But that was pre season, and i just didn't see it. At the end of the day, had we had both Blair and DJ healthy and playing....i think we win that last game. The Dee thing and minimal playing time ...that really hurt us bad. And never more will I complain about carrying 8-10 DTs...as long as they can play. Knowing you have a guy who can only play part of part time...that is a loser for us. I was dead wrong about that. It sure sounded good tho. Turns out Chiefs were smart in trading Dee away.

Originally posted by Stanley:

Originally posted by BriRichardson:

Kittle will get $16 mil per which isn't "cheap". We basically have a smaller window due to not having success until year 3

Any type of success in year one or two would have prevented us from being able to draft Bosa, sign Dee Ford, and trade for Jimmy.

Not sure you understand WHY the window opened at all lol

I don't think many do.

Originally posted by JaggedJ:

If Miami offered one of their firsts as a starting point I'd definitely be willing to listen.

DT is a bit hit and miss in the draft after Brown and Kinlaw though which would make me hesitant.

We'll see what sort of offer we can make AA.

Agreed. Anything less than a 1st for AA if we tagged him and I'm hanging up.

I hope they trade him for a 2nd and a 4th.

Originally posted by CatchMaster80:

This is a really tough call for the front office. If they sign AA to a long term deal worth 12-15 mil per year, they would have about $50 mil tied up in just the 4 defensive line starters. That's about 1/4 of the projected cap. How are we going to sign the receivers, DBs and O linemen that everyone agrees we need. Very few teams ever invest one quarter of their salary cap in 4 defensive players.

If AA gets his contract, you know Buckner is going to want his and then Bosa's agent will want to extend. If Jimmy has a good or better year next year, how much more is he going to want when you look at what QBs are getting now. I'd love to have him back but I'm not sure they can make it work without limiting what we can do with the rest of the roster. You always want to have a little extra in case someone gets hurt and you have to rent a guy for the year.

Calm down on Bosa he's 1 year in. By the time we pay him Ford is going to be gone.

Originally posted by tjd808185:
Calm down on Bosa he's 1 year in. By the time we pay him Ford is going to be gone.

But Buckner and Ford's replacement are going to cost big bucks unless we find a sleeper DE in the late rounds.

This is something I heard from the former Oregon defensive coach and it's what makes me a little leary of signing AA long term. I know this is his opinion but he coached the guy for 3 years. He said the he always felt Buckner would be a better pro because he was tougher and more aggressive. He always had to prod AA to get him to put in the work and would only play in spurts. That's what we saw for the first 3 years. Now in a contract year he plays great. This may be who he is from now on or he could be the guy that Oregon and we saw for 6 years.

Originally posted by CatchMaster80:

Originally posted by tjd808185:
Calm down on Bosa he's 1 year in. By the time we pay him Ford is going to be gone.

But Buckner and Ford's replacement are going to cost big bucks unless we find a sleeper DE in the late rounds.

This is something I heard from the former Oregon defensive coach and it's what makes me a little leary of signing AA long term. I know this is his opinion but he coached the guy for 3 years. He said the he always felt Buckner would be a better pro because he was tougher and more aggressive. He always had to prod AA to get him to put in the work and would only play in spurts. That's what we saw for the first 3 years. Now in a contract year he plays great. This may be who he is from now on or he could be the guy that Oregon and we saw for 6 years.

Armstead was pretty raw coming out of Oregon. I think that plays a bigger part of what we saw the first 3 years.

Originally posted by Hopper:

Originally posted by CatchMaster80:

Originally posted by tjd808185:
Calm down on Bosa he's 1 year in. By the time we pay him Ford is going to be gone.

But Buckner and Ford's replacement are going to cost big bucks unless we find a sleeper DE in the late rounds.

This is something I heard from the former Oregon defensive coach and it's what makes me a little leary of signing AA long term. I know this is his opinion but he coached the guy for 3 years. He said the he always felt Buckner would be a better pro because he was tougher and more aggressive. He always had to prod AA to get him to put in the work and would only play in spurts. That's what we saw for the first 3 years. Now in a contract year he plays great. This may be who he is from now on or he could be the guy that Oregon and we saw for 6 years.

Armstead was pretty raw coming out of Oregon. I think that plays a bigger part of what we saw the first 3 years.

Playing with Ford, Buckner and Bosa also helped.

Originally posted by Lott94:

Originally posted by English:

Originally posted by Lott94:

If DJ Jones medicals show no damage, I'd let Armstead go, and lock up Jones. Jones has been getting better every year, and should be cheaper if he does a contract now. Draft an edge rusher in the draft, and rotate him with Ford and Bosa.

Mmm. I want to keep AA but this would be a fair plan B. When you say "let him go" do you mean just let him walk?

Franchise and then trade Armstead. I like Armstead, and yes the 49ers can be creative with the cap, but you can't invest on 2 high priced DTs.
I believe you can afford and need one high impact player on every level of the defense. Buckner is on the DL. LB Warner at the rate he's progressing will be making Wagner money in 2 years. Sherman is your impact player for the DBs.
A healthy Jones and Blair IMO will cost less annually than Armstead. Of course coming back healthy will be key for those 2.

Ford will be gone in a year or 2 (around the time we will be extending Warner and may even be moving on from Kwon if Greenlaw continues to progress at this rate). AA gets a 4 year deal that expires same time Bosa's contract expires. Think of it as musical chairs with which players are on big contracts. I hope we can get a Super Bowl out of this.

Originally posted by CatchMaster80:

Originally posted by tjd808185:

Calm down on Bosa he's 1 year in. By the time we pay him Ford is going to be gone.

But Buckner and Ford's replacement are going to cost big bucks unless we find a sleeper DE in the late rounds.

This is something I heard from the former Oregon defensive coach and it's what makes me a little leary of signing AA long term. I know this is his opinion but he coached the guy for 3 years. He said the he always felt Buckner would be a better pro because he was tougher and more aggressive. He always had to prod AA to get him to put in the work and would only play in spurts. That's what we saw for the first 3 years. Now in a contract year he plays great. This may be who he is from now on or he could be the guy that Oregon and we saw for 6 years.

Well some may think the gross improvement in play was the contract yr. i choose to believe he NEVER got the coaching that was required to become...well super. The coach from Oregon whose opinion you noted, may very well have been one of those coaches who was responsible for Arik's less than stellar play. All i know is that once Kocurek arrived, Arik suddenly becomes a phenom. I choose to think it is Coach K , not the contract yr. And sure it was Nick, and Buck and Dee that helped a ton.

Re: coming up with money for Buck and Dee, no question we go full on to reward Buck. And the sooner the better. As for Dee, initially i thot this was a great move to sign him and thot we snookered Andy Reid. Turns out the shoe is on the other foot and Andy got the last laugh. I posted this elsewhere but Dee is spectacular coming around that LT. I mean it is an incredible sight watching LTs have Dee sail around them and scaring the krapt out of the QB. Playing part time didn't bother me that much. But i never imagined he would play PART of PART TIME. That is a horse of a different color.

I admired him coming back in the SB even tho injured, but he wasn't the same. Consequently we saw both Solomon and Zettle out there most of the time in the 2nd half. Had we had both DJ and Blair healthy, i am not so sure we wouldn't have had a different outcome in the SB. The problem was 226 snaps...the # of snaps Dee played. Bottom line...it wasn't enough. So if we are going to cut someone, i would look at Dee's status come late Aug early Sept and if he is still iffy, then we would have needed to FA, draft or trade for a speed ER to either back up Dee or to start. The $4.5 mil...let kyle and john make the decision on that.

But my exuberance over signing Dee waned substantially once it became obvious between knees and hammy, he was not able to play half the time, when it was more like 1/4 the time. Whatever, it was NOT ENOUGH. How John and kyle figure this out IDK, and have no advice. Let them figure it out. But signing Arik and Buck is key. Dee is up in the air as is his ability to play at least half time if not more. But this is the slot that cannot stay the same. Hopefully DJ fixes this post op, or perhaps Blair. Also JL can help us out in the late draft rds by coming up with another DJ. Whether FA, by trade or draft, this is the slot that has to be fixed.

And talk about cutting the cord with Arik? Please let's do away with that. He is one of just a handful of DTs who not only can play inside, he can also play outside. Contract yr? Red herring. This was all crappy, crummy coaching, in college and here. Match him up with coach K and boom!. We get the real Arik.