Jacksonville Jaguar Arik Armstead-DT Thread

Originally posted by cciowa:

and your slobbering over him and him being some solid player who is worth 9 million dollars is more regurgitating untrue over valued talking points about a average to below average player. s/yawn.gif]

I went back and watched most of the snaps he took this year.


Did you do the same?


Why don't you go back through the games and point out why I am wrong?


I'm far from the only who has noted his improvement this past season. He struggled somewhat early on but got better and better as the season went on, was easily the second best DL on the roster.

It seems like its easy for you to persist with your endless negativity and extremely difficult to give a player any credit for getting better.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Who? Thomas (already a base down LEO). Taylor. Street. Anyone off the Street can play BE. We've proven that with a dozen players there.

There's playing it and there's playing it well. Armstead played it really well.


People can stick with their 2015/2016 talking points but I'll always give a guy credit for putting the work in and he clearly has. He's improved, he has become much more consistent.


A lot of what the 5 tech does won't show up on the stat sheet but when they do it well, its a benefit to others on that DL.


I've used the Ray McDonald example before and I think it fits well. He was a good player before he went nucking futs. He didn't put up huge #'s but his value consistently showed up in game film. Armstead had a similar effect. If he plays even better this year, he'll have a nice payday waiting for him in FA.

I don't think many have a real issue with him as a starter.

But every fan should have an issue with paying $9M for a one year rental when we have 3+ players who could probably be just as effective as run defenders in a passing league and who'd much rather use that money on more pressing needs.

Big End is the easiest position to find esp. if you have zero expectations of an ER coming from that position like Saleh adheres too.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Not at all, just hearing the exact same talking points from years ago.



The guy has clearly gotten better. The film alone shows that.

No, he's not a dominant pass rusher but few 5 techs are. The Justin Smith's and JJ Watt's of the world are a very rare breed. Armstead has progressed from downright miserable to a solid NFL 5T. At 25, its not beyond the realm of possibility that he continues to improve. In anycase this team is better with him than without him.

I hear you. And you said it yourself he is not a dominant passer, far from it. Which is why the PFF article I referenced is bonkers. I think RayMac is a good comp to aspire to for AA. I was thinking the team would take the Tomlinson approach to AA where he was not given the 5th year option but was extended for less $ on a short multiyear deal.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
I went back and watched most of the snaps he took this year.

Did you do the same?

Why don't you go back through the games and point out why I am wrong?

I'm far from the only who has noted his improvement this past season. It seems like its easy for you to persist with your endless negativity and extremely difficult to give a player any credit for getting better.

i have seen the games where is gets blocked into his own people and where he is clueless on the field. to me he is not a good football player. he was not worth the money it took to sign him. so we disagree. maybe you need to look in the mirror and stop slapping labels on people simply because they dare disagree with you about a player

Originally posted by NCommand:
I don't think many have a real issue with him as a starter.

But every fan should have an issue with paying $9M for a one year rental when we have 3+ players who could probably be just as effective as run defenders in a passing league and who'd much rather use that money on more pressing needs.

Big End is the easiest position to find esp. if you have zero expectations of an ER coming from that position like Saleh adheres too.

9 million dollars for a one trick pony who is not a good well rounded player is f**king stupid. i hope one of the kids on the roster esp the acl guy can beat him out in camp

Originally posted by cciowa:
i have seen the games where is gets blocked into his own people and where he is clueless on the field. to me he is not a good football player. he was not worth the money it took to sign him. so we disagree. maybe you need to look in the mirror and stop slapping labels on people simply because they dare disagree with you about a player

What games specifically?

Originally posted by walker807:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by walker807:

Originally posted by ChazBoner:

Originally posted by NCommand:

BTW, aside from the irresponsible cap hit of $9M and not learning from the Ward situation, I wonder if this overrode Kocurek's ideas on revamping the personnel up front.

who cares, there's so much money!!! AND, he played GREAT this past season. A top 10 DL deserves 15m. 9m is a steal!

Who would you put at BE on running downs? Blair? lol that guy blows against the run. Taylor? Who the hell knows he barely played. Street? Who the hell knows he didn't play. I hope Street is a beast and can let the team move on from AA but all those dudes look like 3rd down rotational guys as of today.

Who? Thomas (already a base down LEO). Taylor. Street. Anyone off the Street can play BE. We've proven that with a dozen players there.

And yet we move AA from Leo to BE and our rush defense is top 10 at 4.1ypc, why do we want to F that up? I'm all for somebody beating him out. Why not have some competition and make one of those dudes actually win the job?

Absolutely. Saleh simply implemented a 4-3 with 3-4 personnel and added 1,200 pounds of beef up front. Of course we got better against the run...because the rest of the league was passing on early downs like we do ourselves. That would be fine if that beef was also aiding the secondary but the secondary was dead last in coverage by a country mile. So yeah, I'd be fine sacrificing a little size up front for adaptation to a 2019 NFL.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by cciowa:
i have seen the games where is gets blocked into his own people and where he is clueless on the field. to me he is not a good football player. he was not worth the money it took to sign him. so we disagree. maybe you need to look in the mirror and stop slapping labels on people simply because they dare disagree with you about a player

What games specifically?

you know . it does not matter if i gave your games.. you would find a way to discredit it.. that is how you roll. example.. you got on me a while back to tell you names of players lynch could have brought in during the off season to help our defense other than your boy aa and ward and marsh..... i said hightower was a free agent and lynch should have taken a run at him. oh my. you had a cow downgrading that idea. so i do not waste my time with people like you who want examples of things. then when you give an example,. you get downgraded and ridiculed. calling people negative just because they disagree with you on a player is pretty sad

Originally posted by NCommand:
I don't think many have a real issue with him as a starter.

But every fan should have an issue with paying $9M for a one year rental when we have 3+ players who could probably be just as effective as run defenders in a passing league and who'd much rather use that money on more pressing needs.

Big End is the easiest position to find esp. if you have zero expectations of an ER coming from that position like Saleh adheres too.

Its pretty clear that some players are better at that ability than others, like anything else. Armstead has developed into a very good run defender. I don't see any other de on this roster playing at the same level. Not sure why some are so attached to bashing him to see that he really has gotten a lot better.

Armstead is a classic 5 technique and teams still routinely go out and spend money to get upgrades at that position. A quality 5T like Armstead could earn $6 to $7 mil on the open market, the 49ers paying him a couple more to maintain continuity and hold on to what appears to be an ascending young player isn't a terrible move by any stretch of the imagination.

This team has more than enough holes to fill without creating new ones. If Armstead continues to progress than the 49ers benefit directly and if he then walks in FA, they potentially get a comp pick out of it too.

just because we have the money,... is the all time worst excuse to sign someone. in my opinion. especially people like aa and smith who do not deserve such money

Originally posted by cciowa:
you know . it does not matter if i gave your games

Once again, what games specifically? From this past season? 2017? 2016? It sounds like you're talking in generalities because you're intent on bashing him no matter what he does.

Originally posted by cciowa:
just because we have the money,... is the all time worst excuse to sign someone. in my opinion. especially people like aa and smith who do not deserve such money

When you have a young defensive lineman that was drafted as a project and is actually starting to grow as a player and show real improvement, that isn't a good time to let them walk when you already have an abundance of cap space and the cap is increasing every single year. Like him or not, he's a guy who has been putting the work in and his play on the field is starting to reflect that which is why he has been receiving more props from people who follow the game closely.

Long term, what exactly is the harm of keeping Armstead around for a year? You don't actually expect them to use all of their $70+ mil in capspace, do you?

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by NCommand:

I don't think many have a real issue with him as a starter.

But every fan should have an issue with paying $9M for a one year rental when we have 3+ players who could probably be just as effective as run defenders in a passing league and who'd much rather use that money on more pressing needs.

Big End is the easiest position to find esp. if you have zero expectations of an ER coming from that position like Saleh adheres too.

Its pretty clear that some players are better at that ability than others, like anything else. Armstead has developed into a very good run defender. I don't see any other de on this roster playing at the same level. Not sure why some are so attached to bashing him to see that he really has gotten a lot better.

Armstead is a classic 5 technique and teams still routinely go out and spend money to get upgrades at that position. A quality 5T like Armstead could earn $6 to $7 mil on the open market, the 49ers paying him a couple more to maintain continuity and hold on to what appears to be an ascending young player isn't a terrible move by any stretch of the imagination.

This team has more than enough holes to fill without creating new ones. If Armstead continues to progress than the 49ers benefit directly and if he then walks in FA, they potentially get a comp pick out of it too.

I have zero issues keeping him and he's fine for Saleh's ideal as a 5T. Saleh referred to him as his own Red Bryant. I did a comparison of their parallel careers and projections and AA was miles ahead of him in production.

But that's not the issue. The issue is they've had a full year to restructure him down and lock him up long term on a lower APY deal. He doesn't sound confident in a long term deal either...or that they've even had those conversations.

So for now, this is a poor one-year rental of $9M for a $5M player with no long term security at that position. It also means we won't be pursuing someone like Brandon Graham who can add ER from there and is just effective in run defense. It also means we won't be moving Solomon Thomas to BE. And we'll probably have to move on from either Taylor or Street for the 53.

Originally posted by StubbyNBY:
Very solid football player who is still young and getting better. I thought this was a NO-brainer

Agreed after watching him closely right from when he joined this team through last year. Here's hoping he shows continued improvement this upcoming season and makes even more of an impact/is more disruptive overall.

Originally posted by NCommand:
I have zero issues keeping him and he's fine for Saleh's ideal as a 5T. Saleh referred to him as his own Red Bryant. I did a comparison of their parallel careers and projections and AA was miles ahead of him in production.

But that's not the issue. The issue is they've had a full year to restructure him down and lock him up long term on a lower APY deal. He doesn't sound confident in a long term deal either...or that they've even had those conversations.

Probably because Thomas would continue to be utilized inside where he played much better, assuming that they don't draft someone like Quinnen Williams. If they draft Bosa then you play him at Leo, play Buckner, Jones and Thomas inside, Armstead and Street at 5T and hopefully you bring in an upgrade at SAM.

So for now, this is a poor one-year rental of $9M for a $5M player with no long term security at that position. It also means we won't be pursuing someone like Brandon Graham who can add ER from there and is just effective in run defense.

This doesn't preclude signing another edge rusher, nor does it preclude signing Armstead to a long term deal if he continues his improved play.

And we'll probably have to move on from either Taylor or Street for the 53.

Not sure why moving on from Taylor would be a huge loss. Taylor looked good at times in the preseason, so have thousands of scrub players that never did a thing in the NFL. Taylor was a 7th round pick, he's incredibly expendable.