Kirk Cousins

Originally posted by Rascal:

Come on, please exercise some common sense. While Kap has a decent TD/INT ratio, he has only 16 TDs, that's 1 TD a game.

Kap didn't start all 16 games. He actually projects out to roughly 25 TDs last year if he started all 16 games.

Originally posted by Rascal:

Why should I be eating crow?

I know Kyle Shanahan likes him and it would be a huge mistake to sign him.

Now, let's be objective here, Kirk Cousins is an OK QB, not bad, but nothing out of the ordinary if you will. He is a QB amongst the main pack. If that's what you are after, then he is your man. But, since the 9ers are starting from scratch at the position and if you want to go after a QB with a far bigger upside and potential, then no.

Then, there is the issue of price tag. It will cost absolutely tons to trade for him, perhaps as much as 2 x 1st and that is only the trading part of the equation. His big contract will be absolutely ginormous, estimated to be in the region of $22 mil a year. $22 mil for an elite QB is OK, but not for a run of the mill QB.

There are plenty of options out there only if you look for them. You are just one of those who saw the 4,900 yards, right away creamed in your pants without looking into the numbers and tried to understand what they actually meant:

1) Can't finish drives, almost 5,000 yards and yet only had 25 TDs to show for. Other 5,000 yard throwers have a minimum of 37 TDs.

2) Pick prone, terrible TD/INT ratio 25/12. Pretty much for every 2 TDs he will throw a pick. Again other 5,000 yard throwers have a far superior TD/INT ratio. Matt Ryan 38/7, Aaron Rodgers 40/6.

3) Worst of all, tendency to fold in big moments and big games. For example:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/redskins/the-redskins-needed-a-big-game-from-kirk-cousins-but-he-just-didnt-have-it/2016/12/20/e79fe3cc-c623-11e6-8bee-54e800ef2a63_story.html?utm_term=.6fee16ba2b61

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/news/kirk-cousins-redskins-contract-salary-2017-free-agency-nfl-playoff-picture/11mxcc2c45izs1jzzmvwkx9ka7

What I would advise you to do is to have a bit of foresight. Don't just look at the 4,900 yards and think he is the second coming. Exercise some self control and set your sights on a QB that has far better upside and not to put your eggs into one basket. Plus, remember we don't need to win big right away this year. We have time on our side. In other words, we can develop promising young QBs.

The kind of benchmarks that we should be looking at in finding our next franchise QB should be players like Derek Carr, almost 4,000 yards, 28 TDs 6 INTs. Also, don't overlook on the players' college stats neither. Although the competition level might be different between different divisions, but very often you can spot the tendencies. Based on their last year's college stats:

• Kirk Cousins (Michigan State) - 2011, 25 TDs 10 INTs
• Derek Carr (Fresno State) - 2013, 50 TDs 8 INTs
• Jimmy Garoppolo (Eastern Illinois) - 2013, 53 TDs 9 INTs

Just look at Cousins' stats, extremely similar to what he is doing now in the league, i.e. low number of TDs and high number of INTs, that's just his MO.

And now, look at Derek Carr's stats, of course NFL is not college and is unrealistic to expect him to score 50 TDs, but again the pattern is there, high number of TDs and low number of INTs.

All in all, it points to where Cousins is at. The upside has been next to absent. Yes, he upped his total yards, but unfortunately with nothing much to show for in terms of scoring. Once you couple that with his tendency of folding in big games, he really isn't as good as you think he is.

I respect your opinion and have made it clear that I feel Cousins is above average for more reasons than just his passing yard numbers (QBR, completion percentage for starters) but I would just like to throw this out there:

You say a 25-12 TD-INT ratio is bad. I disagree for two reasons. First of all, Luck and Newton have had years where their TD-INT ratios were actually LESS than 2. Does that make them average/below average? Second of all, Cousins had I think four rushing TD's last season and five rushing TD's in 2015, and I think most were at the goal line? If he had just thrown those instead of running them in, his ratios suddenly look great, 29-12 is greater than 2.5 and 34-11 in 2015, greater than 3.

And while 32 straight regular season starts is a good sample size to go off of, this whole "can't win a big game" thing is the one asset that's a bit of an early judgement to make. He's played one playoff game in his career, which he lost partially because of red zone inefficiency and mostly because Green Bay's offense was unstoppable. He had a collapse in the second half against the Giants with two picks (I'd rather not analyze the two plays because two plays are two plays), but he's also had games where he came back down more than 20 (against the Bucs), games where he put his team in the lead with a minute left and then the defense coughed it up (against the Lions) and other games where his team is put into a position to win only to have the kicker ruin it (against the Bengals). Heck, in 2015 they basically played the Eagles in prime time for the division title and won, does that not count as a big game?

For what it's worth, I don't think he's as good as Aaron Rodgers, Matt Ryan, Tom Brady, Drew Brees etc. etc. but then again, who in the heck is? Elite QB's don't grow on trees. We have no QB's assuming Kap opts out. Cousins would be a huge upgrade, and the fact that Shanahan has connections to him makes it all the more intriguing, and there's always the possibility that Cousins becomes even better underneath him (possibility, not saying certainty by any stretch).

I think this discussion is all for naught, though. There's basically an 80% chance Kirk gets tagged, and if he's tagged we can wait another year and get another season's worth to see how he does. Then again, that might be enough for Washington to be convinced to sign him long-term.

If we get him though, I don't want to have to give up ANY draft picks. So if we give up a high pick or two for him I will be upset with you

Originally posted by JBrack:
Kap didn't start all 16 games. He actually projects out to roughly 25 TDs last year if he started all 16 games.

Kap started 11 games this season and tossed 16 TD's. Avg the number over a 16 game season and it puts him at 23 TD's.

Originally posted by mayo49:

He puts up the numbers, but he's yet to bring his club to a division title or anything in the playoffs. He's a good player, but I rather take Garoppolo.

He brought them to a division title in 2015. In just one of his two seasons as a starter.

Are you people expecting him to win a Super Bowl within his first two seasons as a starter with a bleh defense and meh running game? I don't get it...

Originally posted by Fanaticofnfl:
I respect your opinion and have made it clear that I feel Cousins is above average for more reasons than just his passing yard numbers (QBR, completion percentage for starters) but I would just like to throw this out there:

You say a 25-12 TD-INT ratio is bad. I disagree for two reasons. First of all, Luck and Newton have had years where their TD-INT ratios were actually LESS than 2. Does that make them average/below average? Second of all, Cousins had I think four rushing TD's last season and five rushing TD's in 2015, and I think most were at the goal line? If he had just thrown those instead of running them in, his ratios suddenly look great, 29-12 is greater than 2.5 and 34-11 in 2015, greater than 3.

And while 32 straight regular season starts is a good sample size to go off of, this whole "can't win a big game" thing is the one asset that's a bit of an early judgement to make. He's played one playoff game in his career, which he lost partially because of red zone inefficiency and mostly because Green Bay's offense was unstoppable. He had a collapse in the second half against the Giants with two picks (I'd rather not analyze the two plays because two plays are two plays), but he's also had games where he came back down more than 20 (against the Bucs), games where he put his team in the lead with a minute left and then the defense coughed it up (against the Lions) and other games where his team is put into a position to win only to have the kicker ruin it (against the Bengals). Heck, in 2015 they basically played the Eagles in prime time for the division title and won, does that not count as a big game?

For what it's worth, I don't think he's as good as Aaron Rodgers, Matt Ryan, Tom Brady, Drew Brees etc. etc. but then again, who in the heck is? Elite QB's don't grow on trees. We have no QB's assuming Kap opts out. Cousins would be a huge upgrade, and the fact that Shanahan has connections to him makes it all the more intriguing, and there's always the possibility that Cousins becomes even better underneath him (possibility, not saying certainty by any stretch).

I think this discussion is all for naught, though. There's basically an 80% chance Kirk gets tagged, and if he's tagged we can wait another year and get another season's worth to see how he does. Then again, that might be enough for Washington to be convinced to sign him long-term.

If we get him though, I don't want to have to give up ANY draft picks. So if we give up a high pick or two for him I will be upset with you

Well, again when I said Cousins' TD/INT ratio is bad, I don't mean he is a sh*t QB per se, I did qualify my statement by saying he is an OK QB, not bad, but not great neither. I am quite aware of Cam Newton and Andrew Luck's TD/INT ratios while Andrew Luck's numbers weren't all that bad last year, Cam Newton's was bad which kind of helps to explain part of the reason for Panthers' demise. Just to add, I also said I believe Cousins is with the main pack of QBs.

Point being is the debate with IdahoNiner was he proclaimed Cousins to be elite. To me, that cannot be any further from the truth. My stance is simple, Cousins is not elite and since we will be starting from scratch with the QB position, why shouldn't we aim high and look for a QB with more upside? Personally, I don't see any upside in Cousins, I do believe what you see is what you will get from him at this juncture of his career. May I remind you Cousins will already be 29 by the time we kick off the new season? His stats from Michigan State till now have been almost carbon copies, that means the tendencies are there. He is not doing 25 TDs and 6 INTs, if he was I would shut up even though I still think 25 TDs is low (since you want to argue on the rushing TDs). But, the part that I am most concerned about is his mistakes.

You touched on the topic of folding in big games, what about the Panthers game too? The truth is how many games is enough? After I saw Kap being destroyed by the Seahawks twice, even back when he was at the peak of his career I already knew something was wrong. Ultimately, what we are trying to do here is to spot the potential problems and screen out those players in question, aren't we? We don't want to sign someone to a $110 mil contract and only to find out 10 games down the road he continues to chalk up more Giants type games right?

In sum, if we sign him, even without the trade, you do realize in all likelihood we will be breaking all NFL records by giving him the biggest contract in history right? May be around $22 mil a year? If we are indeed paying top money, why shouldn't we expect an elite quality QB? You already agreed with the fact that he is no Matt Ryan, Aaron Rodgers, etc. If we already know that, why are we still doing this? Could it be a more viable option to say take a QB with more upside, either someone who hasn't played much in the league or take a top prospect from the draft and develop the guy? At the very least, especially if we go the draft route, we will save a ton of money on the rookie contract whereby we can plough that back in free agency and pick up more impact players? You have to realize with Cousins, if we sign him, it is an all-in type deal? It will be a huge contract with a massive amount of guaranteed money. In other words, it won't be something that we can really back out of.

Bottom line, I just don't think he is good enough and the idea of having Cousins under center just doesn't excite me if I am trying to look ahead to a more positive future of the 9ers going forward. A 29 year old QB (30 if we wait a year) with this level of play and at this price tag? Nah, not for me. I am also aware Kyle Shanahan likes him, so if he signs him then be it, but to me that will be a short-sighted move. Yes, he will help us win some games in the immediate future, but I can't see him taking us to promise land.

So people say we can get Kirk for free after next season without giving up draft picks. But how does that work? He's on a non exclusive tag. So if any team signs him they have to give up two first rounders. If they sign him to a non exclusive again next season then how would it be any different? Wouldn't any team who picks him up still have to give up two first rounders?

There is zero ways you can justify giving
Up two first rounders and a massive contract for what will be a 30 year old qb, unless he's playing like a top 5 guy at that point. Or if your team is stacked and all you literally need is a qb

Originally posted by GhostOfBaalke:

Originally posted by IdahoNiner:
They are not elite scoring WR's. Thats fact. look at their career numbers. Even with Manning Garcon was not lighting the world on fire with TD's And Jackson is pretty much worthless in the redzone. Both his 1/2 are able to put up YAC, so that accounts for some of his passing yardage, but neither are efficeint scoring WR's and thats been the knock on cousins for last season was his td/int ration.

Garçon is a good scoring WR, not great though. Crowder is getting better in the red zone, and they have Jordan f**kin reed the second best TE in the league. If there's a problem scoring with Reed, Garçon, Crowder, Jackson, Chris Thompson, in the red zone. With Kirk Cousins as QB, then there's a serious problem.

Don't forget Crabtree went from averaging 4.5 td a year to 8.5 with a new qb and team

Gracon is not even a good scoring WR. He has a career total of 37 TD's since coming into the league in 2008. Thats including 4 seasons with manning as his QB.

Jackson has 46 since 2008 bit more of a long score threat. not really a great RZ target.

Compare to Crabtree, who most posters around here, including myself criticized for not being great in the RZ or a great scoring WR- 43 TD's since 2009.

He also has no Run game or RZ offense to speak of, and someone said Reed was the second best TE in the league? LOL. As soon as Cousins levaes you will see Reed disappear. Reed has been in the league 4 seasons. 17 of his 20 Career TD's came from Cousins the last two seasons. 1700 of his 2600 career receiving yards came from Cousins. Look at his first two years in the league. You mean to tell me a TE benefits with a quick thinking bright QB who can get rid of the ball quickly, with accuracy, and go through the correct progression? BRILLIANT!

Originally posted by IdahoNiner:

Gracon is not even a good scoring WR. He has a career total of 37 TD's since coming into the league in 2008. Thats including 4 seasons with manning as his QB.

Jackson has 46 since 2008 bit more of a long score threat. not really a great RZ target.

Compare to Crabtree, who most posters around here, including myself criticized for not being great in the RZ or a great scoring WR- 43 TD's since 2009.

He also has no Run game or RZ offense to speak of, and someone said Reed was the second best TE in the league? LOL. As soon as Cousins levaes you will see Reed disappear. Reed has been in the league 4 seasons. 17 of his 20 Career TD's came from Cousins the last two seasons. 1700 of his 2600 career receiving yards came from Cousins. Look at his first two years in the league. You mean to tell me a TE benefits with a quick thinking bright QB who can get rid of the ball quickly, with accuracy, and go through the correct progression? BRILLIANT!

Did you even try to comprehend the Crabtree comparison? I compared Crabtree to him pre-Derek Carr. Crabtree averaged just under 4.5 td's a year then all of the sudden he gets a qb who can ball, and he gets 17tds in 2 years. Compared to 26 in 6 previous years.

And now Jordan Reed is only good because of Kirk cousins? And your reasoning is because he didn't do too well his first two years.. tight ends tend to struggled their first and even second years in the league. But you had to have known that. The only way Reed disappears is because of his injury history.

Originally posted by GhostOfBaalke:

So people say we can get Kirk for free after next season without giving up draft picks. But how does that work? He's on a non exclusive tag. So if any team signs him they have to give up two first rounders. If they sign him to a non exclusive again next season then how would it be any different? Wouldn't any team who picks him up still have to give up two first rounders?

There is zero ways you can justify giving
Up two first rounders and a massive contract for what will be a 30 year old qb, unless he's playing like a top 5 guy at that point. Or if your team is stacked and all you literally need is a qb

The point being, the rumour is that Wash. are considering cutting him. It is covered back a few pages in this thread.

Originally posted by English:

The point being, the rumour is that Wash. are considering cutting him. It is covered back a few pages in this thread.

But isn't that 100 percent pointless when they can sign him to the non exclusive this year and get compensation if he signs with another team in 2018?

Originally posted by GhostOfBaalke:

Originally posted by English:
The point being, the rumour is that Wash. are considering cutting him. It is covered back a few pages in this thread.

But isn't that 100 percent pointless when they can sign him to the non exclusive this year and get compensation if he signs with another team in 2018?

It might be pointless, but at the same time why did Carolina rescind the franchise tag from Josh Norman, they could've got compensation for him too. If it has to do with cap space then I kind of understand, but yes you're right it would make more sense to tag and trade him.

Originally posted by Kolohe:

It might be pointless, but at the same time why did Carolina rescind the franchise tag from Josh Norman, they could've got compensation for him too. If it has to do with cap space then I kind of understand, but yes you're right it would make more sense to tag and trade him.

Norman never signed it. Then after said he was going to. His agent said they didn't wanna sign it because they have no leverage in free agency the following year if a team has to give up draft picks and sign a monster deal to attain him.

According to idahoniner, this guy is only good because of cousins. He only bails out cousins and gets wide open because Cousins Jedi mind tricks allow him to. This is one game vs the packers.

Originally posted by GhostOfBaalke:

Originally posted by IdahoNiner:
Gracon is not even a good scoring WR. He has a career total of 37 TD's since coming into the league in 2008. Thats including 4 seasons with manning as his QB.

Jackson has 46 since 2008 bit more of a long score threat. not really a great RZ target.

Compare to Crabtree, who most posters around here, including myself criticized for not being great in the RZ or a great scoring WR- 43 TD's since 2009.

He also has no Run game or RZ offense to speak of, and someone said Reed was the second best TE in the league? LOL. As soon as Cousins levaes you will see Reed disappear. Reed has been in the league 4 seasons. 17 of his 20 Career TD's came from Cousins the last two seasons. 1700 of his 2600 career receiving yards came from Cousins. Look at his first two years in the league. You mean to tell me a TE benefits with a quick thinking bright QB who can get rid of the ball quickly, with accuracy, and go through the correct progression? BRILLIANT!

Did you even try to comprehend the Crabtree comparison? I compared Crabtree to him pre-Derek Carr. Crabtree averaged just under 4.5 td's a year then all of the sudden he gets a qb who can ball, and he gets 17tds in 2 years. Compared to 26 in 6 previous years.

And now Jordan Reed is only good because of Kirk cousins? And your reasoning is because he didn't do too well his first two years.. tight ends tend to struggled their first and even second years in the league. But you had to have known that. The only way Reed disappears is because of his injury history.

Did you even try to comprehend my comparison? I said look at their career numbers. Garcon had Peyton Manning as his QB for 4 seasons. How much better of a regular season QB can you get in this league? Crabtree had AS and Kap....What QB are we going to pair with Garcon to make him a better scoring threat?

Crabtree is, and always has been a much more proficient and dangerous RZ and scoring target than Garcon Or Jackson. Always has been, and he got a TON of s**t here on these board about not being a proficient scoring threat..

Reed became an elite scoring TE because of Cousins, yes, that is what i am saying. He has three TD's in 20 games played prior to Cousins becoming the starter. Scoring TE's largely become Elite scoring TE's because of their QB's. not the other way around. And someone said he was the second best in the NFL. Greg Olsen had 7 TD's in chicago his first two seasons. Gronk had 27. Aaron hernandez had 13. Vernon Davis had 7 and he had about as bad of a professional start to his career as you can possibly have. Reed Scored 0 TD's his second year in the league, despite playing in 11 games and having 65 targets. All of a sudden Cousins shows up and the kids Targets and TD's go through the roof. That tells me his success is largely in part to cousins throwing him the football.

Originally posted by GhostOfBaalke:

Originally posted by Kolohe:
It might be pointless, but at the same time why did Carolina rescind the franchise tag from Josh Norman, they could've got compensation for him too. If it has to do with cap space then I kind of understand, but yes you're right it would make more sense to tag and trade him.

Norman never signed it. Then after said he was going to. His agent said they didn't wanna sign it because they have no leverage in free agency the following year if a team has to give up draft picks and sign a monster deal to attain him.

Why would a team have to give up draft picks if they were to sign him in free agency?