Seattle Seahawks thread

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Seattles ol the last few years has been solid in the running game. If you look at pff, that is not really a good indicator. You said they were 31st in rushing offense and 11th in passing offense? Well you know that's not true. They're passing offense is struggling mightily and they're running offense has had a few good to very good games. So all the stats in the world you can list but we all know that's not the truth. Pro football focus sometimes is not even close to what's happening in reality. This is certainly the case with this Seattle Seahawks offense.

Their running game is having more success than their passing game often times and that is my point. Russell Wilson is struggling and it is not because of his injuries. He is OK to play through them and it is not affecting his throwing or throwing motion. I was not speaking about his ability to scramble and run, because last year he did very well in those six or so games without really running. He was passing in the pocket and Jimmy Graham was out a lot of those games.

So again I say, A lot of this falls on Russell Wilson. People can list his career stats or whatever but the point is that is in the past. Colin Kaepernick had a great career stats for two or so years and we are not bringing any of that up. The point is now! Why would people list his career stats??????? Well I know why it's pretty hilarious. Currently Russell Wilson is a huge reason the Seattle Seahawks offense is struggling. And I guess some people are in complete denial about it. The minute that happens with some other quarterbacks such as Aaron Rodgers currently people start panicking. They are realistic. However you Seattle fans and Russell Wilson apologists are so funny in regards to this. Delusional. But that's OK because I expected that. I on the other hand am realistic and call it like I see it. It must be nice to make excuses and live in a dream world where Russell Wilson is still a good game manager in the regular season and pretty awful in the playoffs.

Again his defense bailed him out and got him a tie when it should've been a complete loss much like the Miami game as well. Russell Wilson is not even close to the reason the Seahawks are winning it is completely their defense right now. 100%

Originally posted by elguapo:
Why would people list his career stats???????

They only want the past to be brought up when it benefits their arguments, pov, blah blah

5 Trophies in the case >>> 1 trophy all by it's lonesome...

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I give you the yards per attempt for both passing and rushing, tell you where to find them and your reply is "we know that's not true"? Sorry to tell you but yards per attempt are a direct measure of a teams efficiency. So actually what I said IS true. There are 30 teams doing a better job at running the ball than the Seahawks this year. And I said its at ESPN not PFF. Those are hard numbers, not rankings - have somebody read them to you. You seem to have reverted back to your reading comprehension problems again Elguapo.

And you ask why anyone would refer to Wilson's career stats? Good question... I didn't. You are entitled to your opinion on RW. I made no comment on that. However you backed your argument with assumptions that are questionable at best. I spent a couple of minutes on google and shared the results that clearly showed you are up to your old tricks of making things up and hoping nobody notices. You know people can verify facts - you shouldn't be surprised when they do. You are more than welcome to your opinion that Wilson is the sole cause of all Seahawks struggles. I was merely pointing out a couple of the more obvious flaws in your logic.

Canfan, I believe he's referring to LisaTwelve who always has a devil's advocate copy/paste at the ready for every negative scenario we can drum up around here. It's pretty impressive, lol.

She brought up Wilson having best ever 5 year start for a QB, which so happens to coincide with one of the few if only #1 defenses over a similar period......but of course that's just a coincidence.

If stats are going to be thrown around in a vacuum to prop up QB play early in a career, then to me, NOBODY (that includes our Niner QBs) touches Dan Marino. In his second year he threw for 48 TDs, and 5000 yards with basically just two star receivers and no running game, and I believe an average to above average defense. Those are undeniable stats.

For everyone else you have to analyze everything in depth. You know Alex Smith had a lot of gaudy efficiency stats under the Harbaugh campaign. Highest rated passer until he got hurt in 2012. Only difference between him & RW is that RW is better at making the big play, and coupled with that defense you win games.

I think the 49ers would have beaten the Giants in 2011 with 2013 RW (assuming RW could have gotten past the Saints which Smith did in an all time effort). The 2011 NFCC is a perfect example of a game RW can win quite often. Smith failed to make a play to clinch it whereas Wilson eventually (usually) can make the play.

Of course, I know that CK of old would have won that game.

It's a good point someone made......don't bring up RW's career stats (not you CanFan), because then you'd have to acknowledge CK has very good career stats too. He can retire today with 1.5 seasons of stink plus an off year in 2014 and still come off ok. It's sorta like an Alex Smith career in reverse.

Wilson just like any other QB is in a what have you done for me lately league. And the league has been brutal on the "mobile" QBs. Griffin is finished. Kap is probably finished. Cam had a great year last year but this year hasn't....plus his other years haven't been great. Wilson seems to have eluded poor years statistically but his team is the only one consistently strong on defense. Not just consistently good, but consistently #1 good.........my god.

With everything being said, it's hard for me to wonder how Wilson could be a better pure passer than all of those guys who were all drafted ahead of him. The height thing is overrated. Wilson is "short" by NFL QB standards, but he's not Doug Flutie short. In fact he's at most 1" shorter than Drew Brees, so the idea that he is "Marino but nobody can see it because he's 5'5"" is BS and very annoying. Brees was picked at the very top of the 2nd round himself and went on to do major damage with SD and New Orleans right away.

Wilson was drafted for mobility, decent throwing ability, resiliency, and all that other junk.

We've documented his strengths and weaknesses here in his throwing ability. The guy probably has a top 3 deep ball in the league as much as we hate it. He's a pretty accurate passer. But where I find fault with him right now (and maybe it changes) is that I don't see Wilson as a top level intermediate thrower.

The type of throws Matt Ryan was making in the 3rd quarter against that Seahawk defense.....that's something I haven't seen out of Wilson a whole lot. I've seen more from old Kap in that regard than I've seen of Wilson too. It's why so many of us always felt Kap was better than Wilson back in the day.

If/when Wilson can start making those throws regularly that Ryan, Rodgers, and other notables can make he will be a top QB. Until then you cannot rely on a deep ball as your offense. Maybe the height hinders him a bit. Still not enough reps on his belt.

Also those passes that come out in 2.4 seconds? Most of those guys are pretty open/designed reads.

You put it all together however you want to spin it....and I don't see RW as a top QB.

Not a major problem though, the Hawks will still be a winning team.

"he's right you know" gif...

Originally posted by Canfan:

I give you the yards per attempt for both passing and rushing, tell you where to find them and your reply is "we know that's not true"? Sorry to tell you but yards per attempt are a direct measure of a teams efficiency. So actually what I said IS true. There are 30 teams doing a better job at running the ball than the Seahawks this year. And I said its at ESPN not PFF. Those are hard numbers, not rankings - have somebody read them to you. You seem to have reverted back to your reading comprehension problems again Elguapo.

And you ask why anyone would refer to Wilson's career stats? Good question... I didn't. You are entitled to your opinion on RW. I made no comment on that. However you backed your argument with assumptions that are questionable at best. I spent a couple of minutes on google and shared the results that clearly showed you are up to your old tricks of making things up and hoping nobody notices. You know people can verify facts - you shouldn't be surprised when they do. You are more than welcome to your opinion that Wilson is the sole cause of all Seahawks struggles. I was merely pointing out a couple of the more obvious flaws in your logic.

Talk about reading comprehension much? It was painfully obvious I was referring To another poster. I guess you need not only reading comprehension you need simple logic and elementary courses in communication and understanding. Sorry about that. You are a stats guy. We all know what they say stats are for. Losers. So you can tell me again that it's verified that they are not efficient in yards per play, but I do not agree with those stats one bit. I take the game as a whole and don't rely simply on stats. You say there are 30 teams more efficient running the ball than Seattle. I don't agree with that stat. Seattle is not 13th or whatever you said their number was in passing either. I don't agree with that stat as well. So if you want to take stats for what they are go ahead but it does not tell the story at all. So I believe you are wrong and I am right. If we are going for stats then we might as well just look at results right? Is Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer better than Dan Marino because they have a Super Bowl trophy? I don't think so but that is another issue. It just simply shows shortsightedness which is what a lot of people make the mistake of doing that don't understand football. They just look at stats.

Watching Seattle passing is painful, and because of that they're running efficiency goes down because teams are stacking the box more against them because Russell Wilson and the Seahawks are not doing that well passing the ball. That is why the running game suffers and that is why you believe everything you read, stats when that is not the issue and the true telling of the reality.


Hell according to your wonderful logic, Blake Bortles had a great game tonight. Oh, wait he didn't, he had those stats in garbage time. But you're the stats guy and it can be verified and I'm the one that is up to my old tricks HUH? what a joke. So easy with you.

Originally posted by elguapo:

Originally posted by Canfan:

I give you the yards per attempt for both passing and rushing, tell you where to find them and your reply is "we know that's not true"? Sorry to tell you but yards per attempt are a direct measure of a teams efficiency. So actually what I said IS true. There are 30 teams doing a better job at running the ball than the Seahawks this year. And I said its at ESPN not PFF. Those are hard numbers, not rankings - have somebody read them to you. You seem to have reverted back to your reading comprehension problems again Elguapo.

And you ask why anyone would refer to Wilson's career stats? Good question... I didn't. You are entitled to your opinion on RW. I made no comment on that. However you backed your argument with assumptions that are questionable at best. I spent a couple of minutes on google and shared the results that clearly showed you are up to your old tricks of making things up and hoping nobody notices. You know people can verify facts - you shouldn't be surprised when they do. You are more than welcome to your opinion that Wilson is the sole cause of all Seahawks struggles. I was merely pointing out a couple of the more obvious flaws in your logic.

Talk about reading comprehension much? It was painfully obvious I was referring To another poster. I guess you need not only reading comprehension you need simple logic and elementary courses in communication and understanding. Sorry about that. You are a stats guy. We all know what they say stats are for. Losers. So you can tell me again that it's verified that they are not efficient in yards per play, but I do not agree with those stats one bit. I take the game as a whole and don't rely simply on stats. You say there are 30 teams more efficient running the ball than Seattle. I don't agree with that stat. Seattle is not 13th or whatever you said their number was in passing either. I don't agree with that stat as well. So if you want to take stats for what they are go ahead but it does not tell the story at all. So I believe you are wrong and I am right. Watching Seattle passing is painful, and because of that they're running efficiency goes down because teams are stacking the box more against them because Russell Wilson and the Seahawks are not doing that well passing the ball. That is why the running game suffers and that is why you believe everything you read stats.


Hell according to your wonderful logic, Blake Bortles had a great game tonight. Oh, wait he didn't, he had those stats in garbage time. But you're the stats guy and it can be verified and I'm the one that is up to my old tricks HUH? what a joke. So easy with you.

Getting personal again. Happy to time you both out of NFL Talk until after the season ends if this continues.

To keep it shorter and sweeter on my RW analysis:

RW looks propped up by run game, mobility, plays out of the pocket, and nice quickly schemed open reads. And despite all of this, he usually starts games slow and doesn't produce as much as offense as you would expect.

But there's something awfully weird about those Seahawk 2 minute drives to close out a half or game -- that offense almost always seems unstoppable for some reason. He hasn't always succeeded in those scenarios but he has more often than not.

Look at the last Super Bowl he was in. He had two very fast converting drives to close out the halves....we know how the second one ended, but that drive was totally different from the rest of the game. It was the most average I've ever seen Wilson look, considering the Patriots did not have a devastating pass rush or shutdown corners per se -- Wilson despite having a lot of time to throw did nothing most of that game.

And the one drive to close out the half, I think the Patriots scored a TD with about 50 seconds to play, and the Seahawks still drove down and scored a TD.

It's a very strange phenomenon that I still cannot explain.

Don't understand the utter hatred for RW. He's a great QB in a scheme that's being forced to evolve. He is playing behind the cheapest oline in the league. Yet he's already proven he can pass with the best of them. Give him a scheme, oline, and the elite multiple targets that many glorified QB's enjoy and he will put up the same numbers. Then again he already has. It's mind boggling.

Originally posted by JTsBiggestFan:

Canfan, I believe he's referring to LisaTwelve who always has a devil's advocate copy/paste at the ready for every negative scenario we can drum up around here. It's pretty impressive, lol.

She brought up Wilson having best ever 5 year start for a QB, which so happens to coincide with one of the few if only #1 defenses over a similar period......but of course that's just a coincidence.

If stats are going to be thrown around in a vacuum to prop up QB play early in a career, then to me, NOBODY (that includes our Niner QBs) touches Dan Marino. In his second year he threw for 48 TDs, and 5000 yards with basically just two star receivers and no running game, and I believe an average to above average defense. Those are undeniable stats.

For everyone else you have to analyze everything in depth. You know Alex Smith had a lot of gaudy efficiency stats under the Harbaugh campaign. Highest rated passer until he got hurt in 2012. Only difference between him & RW is that RW is better at making the big play, and coupled with that defense you win games.

I think the 49ers would have beaten the Giants in 2011 with 2013 RW (assuming RW could have gotten past the Saints which Smith did in an all time effort). The 2011 NFCC is a perfect example of a game RW can win quite often. Smith failed to make a play to clinch it whereas Wilson eventually (usually) can make the play.

Of course, I know that CK of old would have won that game.

It's a good point someone made......don't bring up RW's career stats (not you CanFan), because then you'd have to acknowledge CK has very good career stats too. He can retire today with 1.5 seasons of stink plus an off year in 2014 and still come off ok. It's sorta like an Alex Smith career in reverse.

Wilson just like any other QB is in a what have you done for me lately league. And the league has been brutal on the "mobile" QBs. Griffin is finished. Kap is probably finished. Cam had a great year last year but this year hasn't....plus his other years haven't been great. Wilson seems to have eluded poor years statistically but his team is the only one consistently strong on defense. Not just consistently good, but consistently #1 good.........my god.

With everything being said, it's hard for me to wonder how Wilson could be a better pure passer than all of those guys who were all drafted ahead of him. The height thing is overrated. Wilson is "short" by NFL QB standards, but he's not Doug Flutie short. In fact he's at most 1" shorter than Drew Brees, so the idea that he is "Marino but nobody can see it because he's 5'5"" is BS and very annoying. Brees was picked at the very top of the 2nd round himself and went on to do major damage with SD and New Orleans right away.

Wilson was drafted for mobility, decent throwing ability, resiliency, and all that other junk.

We've documented his strengths and weaknesses here in his throwing ability. The guy probably has a top 3 deep ball in the league as much as we hate it. He's a pretty accurate passer. But where I find fault with him right now (and maybe it changes) is that I don't see Wilson as a top level intermediate thrower.

The type of throws Matt Ryan was making in the 3rd quarter against that Seahawk defense.....that's something I haven't seen out of Wilson a whole lot. I've seen more from old Kap in that regard than I've seen of Wilson too. It's why so many of us always felt Kap was better than Wilson back in the day.

If/when Wilson can start making those throws regularly that Ryan, Rodgers, and other notables can make he will be a top QB. Until then you cannot rely on a deep ball as your offense. Maybe the height hinders him a bit. Still not enough reps on his belt.

Also those passes that come out in 2.4 seconds? Most of those guys are pretty open/designed reads.

You put it all together however you want to spin it....and I don't see RW as a top QB.

Not a major problem though, the Hawks will still be a winning team.

I actually agree with most of what you said. I've never bought in to the whole "elite" conversation. I have too much trouble separating any player out of the context of his teammates and the scheme. Wilson has a certain skill set and a staff that has found the best way to maximize it. Right now, a lot of what they like to do isn't working because Wilson is hobbled and they don't have the personnel to run anything else. Maybe they can scheme something up like last year. My reference to Wilson getting the ball out quicker was not meant as a compliment - it was meant to show they have tried to make adjustments to account for the reality of their limitations. Make no mistake - this offense is putrid right now. Wilson needs a running game to make the passing game work. He can't overcome that. Maybe some day he will be able to use the short passing game as a run game substitute, but he has a ways to go to be as effective as somebody like Philip Rivers. I'm not sure we aren't both saying the same thing. My last 3 posts were all a result of addressing a couple of outright falsehoods about the state of the Seahawks running game. I wasn't trying to absolve any one member of that offense from a share in the responsibility. I just don't think Wilson is what will keep them from making a playoff run this year. They have 3 or 4 other things that limit them more. You and I may not agree on everything but I find your observations to be well thought out and based on what you actually see. You are able to dislike a team without losing perspective on what they actually are on the field and are honest in your assessment. I appreciate your perspective.

I heard RW and Scottie Pippen have become best friends...

Plotting their vengeance on Future

Originally posted by English:

Getting personal again. Happy to time you both out of NFL Talk until after the season ends if this continues.

My apologies. I've never supplied actual stats from an actual impartial website before and had somebody say they don't really exist. I didn't appreciate it and I didn't handle it well. You won't need to give me a timeout - I promise not to interact with Elguapo again. Past experiences should have taught me better by now. I like the tone being set here and don't want to be the one who helps it degenerate into what it was before. I'll do better.

Originally posted by fortyninerglory:

Don't understand the utter hatred for RW. He's a great QB in a scheme that's being forced to evolve. He is playing behind the cheapest oline in the league. Yet he's already proven he can pass with the best of them. Give him a scheme, oline, and the elite multiple targets that many glorified QB's enjoy and he will put up the same numbers. Then again he already has. It's mind boggling.

What's so hard to understand? This is a 49er site, we don't praise all things Russell Wilson. Perhaps .net would be a better place for you if your that into RW. At .net they talk crap about Kap all the time, not real hard to understand why. It's a Hawk fan forum.