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May 2, 2020 at 10:45 AM
  • thl408
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 33,085
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by NCommand:
I agree with the premise of the article, although I don't think using that 3rd & 15 is a good example of why the defense needs to be able to play man more effectively. Like Geidi mentioned, playing man against elusive QBs is playing with fire. If an elusive QB escapes the pocket, then man coverage can get you in trouble since it's difficult to play man for over 4 seconds.

I had suggested the defense be capable of playing man coverage better, but the foundation of this defense is zone. And it makes a lot of sense to be this way with the strength of the defense being the DL. I do think that with better man CBs, mixed with creative blitz packages, it can be a good way to change things up against mobile QBs at certain points within a game. If the 49ers do some honest self scouting, I think they will see that playing man coverage more effectively would add a new dimension that they can go to in key situations.

With Sherman probably slowing down physically, asking him to play more man wouldn't be playing to his strength. So the 2020 defense could be more of the same (very zone heavy). Perhaps start keeping an eye out for more athletic CBs so that once Sherman hangs them up, there's a new crop of 49er CBs that can play both man and zone reasonably well. Like Hero said, the really good man CB prospects go round 1. It would be a big commitment of draft capital to go that route, but I think it's possible to get a couple CBs that can do a little bit of both well enough that the front 4 makes them better than they actually are.

Well said thl...fully agree here.
Excellent post THL, I agree, and share in agreement with the Article's premise also but your point is very good. I also wanted DB help in this years draft, but unfortunately the draft wasn't apparently very deep in DB's. I remember Walsh in 81 just loading up on DB's and getting Fred Dean in the regular season, and that really sealed the deal and our first super bowl win.

I think John Lynch has a bit of a bias against DB's, and it's a bit of a worry. He's stated time and time again, that if you have a great D LIne, you don't need excellent DB athletes back there. I think this bias revealed it's weaknesses in the super bowl where once the QB escapes and buys time, you now need the DB's to hold up in pass coverage (as impossible as that sounds vs Mahomes).

We couldn't have won the first two super bowls without great DB's in Ronnie Lott and Eric Wright. I think John has to revisit his defensive philosophy to include drafting better DB athletes that can keep up with the Tyreeks and the Julio's that are out there. Otherwise, we'll be in the same spot as last time if we meet the Chiefs again in the playoffs.

In a perfect world, you can prioritize both DL and DBs, but the reality is you can either find a balance of both, or pick one area to create an identity around. It's obvious which the 49ers have chosen. While we can point to the SB and say that the refs not calling offensive holding can negate the strength of the DL, a ref crew that calls illegal contact and defensive holding can negate good man coverage - good man coverage is usually grabby beyond 5 yards. I don't think the SB and the way it was called should cause any rethinking of how the defense is built (good DL).

Good man CBs allow for more effective blitz packages that do creative things up front while backed up with good man coverage. A good DL that can generate pressure with four allows for more creative things to be done with the 7 on coverage (disguised coverages). I'm fine with having the DL as the identity of the defense, hopefully the next draft brings in some CB youth that can allow for the defense to play man and zone with equal effectiveness.
May 2, 2020 at 10:57 AM
Originally posted by Giedi:
When you have a mobile QB, essentially the offense plays with a man advantage vs the defense. I just don't think (with the rules as they are currently) defenses can shut down offenses - at best they just slow offenses down to where your offense can keep ahead of the other offense. The Super Bowl felt like a track match to me, with the guy with the ball last would win. Our entire team (including the coaches) in the super bowl was just too young and inexperienced for the bright lights, in my opinion.

I think Kyle found out the hard way how mobile QB's with arm talent can take over games no matter how talented your defenders are. I think signing Rutter was a turning point in Kyle's mindset about staying away from mobile QB's.

Kyle has always liked the QB that stands in the pocket and gets rid of the ball quickly and on target. He had Ryan in Atlanta and wanted Cousins before we got JG. His #1 backup is Mullens. All 4 of these guys are pretty similar in size and style. None of them is what you would call a mobile QB.

The rules have made it easier for mobile QBs and the style of the game is changing. There are now several guys that can run around and make plays by buying time and letting the WR break coverage. In the future I can see Kyle evolving and trying to find a QB that can stand tall when needed but make plays out of nothing as well. Not saying he's giving up on Jimmy but if and when he does move on he may consider a little different style.
[ Edited by CatchMaster80 on May 2, 2020 at 11:27 AM ]
May 2, 2020 at 1:08 PM
Originally posted by SFrush:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by Hoovtrain:
Originally posted by FL9er:
Gotta have the corners to play more man. Don't think we do at the moment.

I think TH has been mentioning that and wanting to see it. Need to get some guys that can do both .

Even if you had the DB's, once a QB scrambles, with a talent like Mahomes, I don't know if even great DB's could have stopped those plays. I think it has to start with the DLine and that DLine has to contain and get to Mahomes, because once those kinds of QB's escape the pocket - they become very dangerous. I saw Steve Young, by himself, win games because he could do it all - run or pass. It's also the way the rules are set up too. The QB is pretty much protected and has the advantage, in my opinion, once he escapes the pocket. I think you almost have to blitz one way or the other (by guessing) to stop those plays - because if you sit back and play conventional defense - those mobile QB's will escape time and time again and burn the DB's.

Yeah some people may want more man coverage but then you'll have more defenders with their backs turned against mobile QB's. Then what?

Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by NCommand:
I agree with the premise of the article, although I don't think using that 3rd & 15 is a good example of why the defense needs to be able to play man more effectively. Like Geidi mentioned, playing man against elusive QBs is playing with fire. If an elusive QB escapes the pocket, then man coverage can get you in trouble since it's difficult to play man for over 4 seconds.

I had suggested the defense be capable of playing man coverage better, but the foundation of this defense is zone. And it makes a lot of sense to be this way with the strength of the defense being the DL. I do think that with better man CBs, mixed with creative blitz packages, it can be a good way to change things up against mobile QBs at certain points within a game. If the 49ers do some honest self scouting, I think they will see that playing man coverage more effectively would add a new dimension that they can go to in key situations.

With Sherman probably slowing down physically, asking him to play more man wouldn't be playing to his strength. So the 2020 defense could be more of the same (very zone heavy). Perhaps start keeping an eye out for more athletic CBs so that once Sherman hangs them up, there's a new crop of 49er CBs that can play both man and zone reasonably well. Like Hero said, the really good man CB prospects go round 1. It would be a big commitment of draft capital to go that route, but I think it's possible to get a couple CBs that can do a little bit of both well enough that the front 4 makes them better than they actually are.

Well said thl...fully agree here.
Excellent post THL, I agree, and share in agreement with the Article's premise also but your point is very good. I also wanted DB help in this years draft, but unfortunately the draft wasn't apparently very deep in DB's. I remember Walsh in 81 just loading up on DB's and getting Fred Dean in the regular season, and that really sealed the deal and our first super bowl win.

I think John Lynch has a bit of a bias against DB's, and it's a bit of a worry. He's stated time and time again, that if you have a great D LIne, you don't need excellent DB athletes back there. I think this bias revealed it's weaknesses in the super bowl where once the QB escapes and buys time, you now need the DB's to hold up in pass coverage (as impossible as that sounds vs Mahomes).

We couldn't have won the first two super bowls without great DB's in Ronnie Lott and Eric Wright. I think John has to revisit his defensive philosophy to include drafting better DB athletes that can keep up with the Tyreeks and the Julio's that are out there. Otherwise, we'll be in the same spot as last time if we meet the Chiefs again in the playoffs.

Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by NCommand:
I agree with the premise of the article, although I don't think using that 3rd & 15 is a good example of why the defense needs to be able to play man more effectively. Like Geidi mentioned, playing man against elusive QBs is playing with fire. If an elusive QB escapes the pocket, then man coverage can get you in trouble since it's difficult to play man for over 4 seconds.

I had suggested the defense be capable of playing man coverage better, but the foundation of this defense is zone. And it makes a lot of sense to be this way with the strength of the defense being the DL. I do think that with better man CBs, mixed with creative blitz packages, it can be a good way to change things up against mobile QBs at certain points within a game. If the 49ers do some honest self scouting, I think they will see that playing man coverage more effectively would add a new dimension that they can go to in key situations.

With Sherman probably slowing down physically, asking him to play more man wouldn't be playing to his strength. So the 2020 defense could be more of the same (very zone heavy). Perhaps start keeping an eye out for more athletic CBs so that once Sherman hangs them up, there's a new crop of 49er CBs that can play both man and zone reasonably well. Like Hero said, the really good man CB prospects go round 1. It would be a big commitment of draft capital to go that route, but I think it's possible to get a couple CBs that can do a little bit of both well enough that the front 4 makes them better than they actually are.

Well said thl...fully agree here.

Altho i didnt make a big deal out of it pre draft, one of the 4 obvious needs was a cover corner. Perhaps i knew but never really acknowledged that if you really want a cover corner you are talking about a top 3-5 pick . Otherwise you are just getting a corner. But man or cover corner....entirely different animal and no way in Hades were we going to come up with a #3-5 pick, let alone burn that pick on a cover corner when we just lost the heart of our DL and desperately needed IOL help...and altho 4th on my list, yes, we needed one of the 3 top WRs, or as it turned out, Aiyuc. Well our guys did pretty dam well with both Kinlaw and Aiyuc, somehow getting two of their top 2 wants and needs.

Wishing for a cover corner was just nutty, because that is a rarity , and requiring a pick we didn't have....top 3. Also our other needs were so much greater. Still KS/JL knocked it out of th park, getting two of our 4 biggest needs and then with Joe's retirement, used trades to bring big Trent here to make up for Joe's loss. That is a lot of doing, and i am grateful for it.

Any talk about a cover corner, however, is limited by the fact there rarely is one there and if so, we are talking prime draft real estate. In that instance, a very very good DT to Fill in the huge hole left by DeFo, is way more important than a cover corner. BEsides, there was barely one cover corner there. And was he good enough? Probabaly not. So we just do without and let the front end of the D determine how good our D is. Front 7 is truly superb. But for it to excel we have to have 4 STUDS on the DL, and Kinlaw will have to take some time to somewhat resemble what Buck did. So my wanting a cover corner wasn't realistic, it was more a desire than a true want...because we just didin't have the chips for the cover corner, and even then, was he good enough.

I am just delighted with the way things played out, and realize now wishing for a Cover corner prior to draft was just pure folly.. ...and who ever thot of TW ending up here with Joe's retirement which we ended up knowing post facto.? When you add that into our first two picks, our guys did fantastic. Job well done! Cover corner ? Fuggedaboudit. That's for another day (or yr).
May 2, 2020 at 1:12 PM
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by NCommand:
I agree with the premise of the article, although I don't think using that 3rd & 15 is a good example of why the defense needs to be able to play man more effectively. Like Geidi mentioned, playing man against elusive QBs is playing with fire. If an elusive QB escapes the pocket, then man coverage can get you in trouble since it's difficult to play man for over 4 seconds.

I had suggested the defense be capable of playing man coverage better, but the foundation of this defense is zone. And it makes a lot of sense to be this way with the strength of the defense being the DL. I do think that with better man CBs, mixed with creative blitz packages, it can be a good way to change things up against mobile QBs at certain points within a game. If the 49ers do some honest self scouting, I think they will see that playing man coverage more effectively would add a new dimension that they can go to in key situations.

With Sherman probably slowing down physically, asking him to play more man wouldn't be playing to his strength. So the 2020 defense could be more of the same (very zone heavy). Perhaps start keeping an eye out for more athletic CBs so that once Sherman hangs them up, there's a new crop of 49er CBs that can play both man and zone reasonably well. Like Hero said, the really good man CB prospects go round 1. It would be a big commitment of draft capital to go that route, but I think it's possible to get a couple CBs that can do a little bit of both well enough that the front 4 makes them better than they actually are.

Well said...I agree that we should be mixing in more man.

Isn't one possible way to get more creative in the secondary by matching up Sherman on a TE? Then drop Ward to cover a WR (we saw him do a great job against Copper Kupp). E-Man, Jimmie Ward are solid man-to-man and athletic enough... even Witherspoon if he can clean up his technique. K'Waun is an amazing zone nickel, though not sure about in man.

If we're playing Cover 1 man vs. 11 personnel, E-Man, KW, Ward take the WRs, Sherman takes the TE, Dre/Kwon take the RB, and Warner can either blitz for 5-man rush or spy against a mobile QB. Tartt becomes the deep safety.

If we want to play 2 man under vs 11 personnel, we can go Dime and basically put Warner on the RB and put in Tartt + Moore as the 2 deep safeties.
May 2, 2020 at 1:14 PM
  • FL9er
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 10,793
Assuming there is a season, tremendous HC audition for Saleh:

Josh McDaniels
Adam Gase
Brian Daboll
Mike McCarthy
Jason Garrett
Doug Pederson
Matt LaFleur
Sean McVay (2x)
Kliff Kingsbury (2x)
Sean Payton

On the schedule. And it doesn't include potentially Bruce Arians, Gary Kubiak, or Dirk Koetter in the playoffs.
May 2, 2020 at 2:30 PM
Originally posted by FL9er:
Assuming there is a season, tremendous HC audition for Saleh:

Josh McDaniels
Adam Gase
Brian Daboll
Mike McCarthy
Jason Garrett
Doug Pederson
Matt LaFleur
Sean McVay (2x)
Kliff Kingsbury (2x)
Sean Payton

On the schedule. And it doesn't include potentially Bruce Arians, Gary Kubiak, or Dirk Koetter in the playoffs.

True. True.
May 2, 2020 at 3:23 PM
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Excellent post THL, I agree, and share in agreement with the Article's premise also but your point is very good. I also wanted DB help in this years draft, but unfortunately the draft wasn't apparently very deep in DB's. I remember Walsh in 81 just loading up on DB's and getting Fred Dean in the regular season, and that really sealed the deal and our first super bowl win.

I think John Lynch has a bit of a bias against DB's, and it's a bit of a worry. He's stated time and time again, that if you have a great D LIne, you don't need excellent DB athletes back there. I think this bias revealed it's weaknesses in the super bowl where once the QB escapes and buys time, you now need the DB's to hold up in pass coverage (as impossible as that sounds vs Mahomes).

We couldn't have won the first two super bowls without great DB's in Ronnie Lott and Eric Wright. I think John has to revisit his defensive philosophy to include drafting better DB athletes that can keep up with the Tyreeks and the Julio's that are out there. Otherwise, we'll be in the same spot as last time if we meet the Chiefs again in the playoffs.

Fully agree. Every FO has a couple blind spots. To me, that's CB and OL. I think both Kyle and Lynch come from more older school philosophical backgrounds. The good news is both have 6 year contracts so hopefully next year, OL and DB will be more in play for a more complete...talented starting team.

Regardless of how they value DBs, they had the #1 pass D last year.
May 2, 2020 at 4:26 PM
Originally posted by Hoovtrain:
Regardless of how they value DBs, they had the #1 pass D last year.

No doubt. That's a product of quality play for sure and a lot of ball control (stellar running and efficient 3rd downs) on offense, giving fewer opportunities to pass against us...and a DL that could just pin its ears back. That could still happen again, but when the talent needs to stand on its own, like the OL, can it? Hopefully!

[ Edited by NCommand on May 2, 2020 at 4:34 PM ]
May 2, 2020 at 4:42 PM
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Hoovtrain:
Regardless of how they value DBs, they had the #1 pass D last year.

No doubt. That's a product of quality play for sure and a lot of ball control (stellar running and efficient 3rd downs) on offense, giving fewer opportunities to pass against us...and a DL that could just pin its ears back. That could still happen again, but when the talent needs to stand on its own, like the OL, can it? Hopefully!


Yup, so then it is wise to build through the DL each year.
niners were generally rolling teams last year, so teams were more apt to pass against them. All that said I have no problem infusing more talent into the secondary
May 2, 2020 at 4:50 PM
  • mayo49
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 64,880
This defensive line is going to be monsterous this year.
May 2, 2020 at 5:01 PM
May 2, 2020 at 5:02 PM
Originally posted by Hoovtrain:
Yup, so then it is wise to build through the DL each year.
niners were generally rolling teams last year, so teams were more apt to pass against them. All that said I have no problem infusing more talent into the secondary

Next year. Might have to overhaul anyways with 4 of 5 free agents.
May 2, 2020 at 6:07 PM
  • Giedi
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 33,368
Originally posted by NCommand:
Fully agree. Every FO has a couple blind spots. To me, that's CB and OL. I think both Kyle and Lynch come from more older school philosophical backgrounds. The good news is both have 6 year contracts so hopefully next year, OL and DB will be more in play for a more complete...talented starting team.

Originally posted by thl408:
In a perfect world, you can prioritize both DL and DBs, but the reality is you can either find a balance of both, or pick one area to create an identity around. It's obvious which the 49ers have chosen. While we can point to the SB and say that the refs not calling offensive holding can negate the strength of the DL, a ref crew that calls illegal contact and defensive holding can negate good man coverage - good man coverage is usually grabby beyond 5 yards. I don't think the SB and the way it was called should cause any rethinking of how the defense is built (good DL).

Good man CBs allow for more effective blitz packages that do creative things up front while backed up with good man coverage. A good DL that can generate pressure with four allows for more creative things to be done with the 7 on coverage (disguised coverages). I'm fine with having the DL as the identity of the defense, hopefully the next draft brings in some CB youth that can allow for the defense to play man and zone with equal effectiveness.

I think losing Coach Woods created a bit of a blind spot on the coaching staff regarding defensive backs, this offseason. I know we had the number 1 pass defense last year and a big part of that I think Coach Woods adding some variety of coverages vs the years before that. I think the defense missed his voice in this years draft. That's just my feeling on the matter.

The traditional 49er defense was always a great pass rush and great defensive back play. Erick wright, lott, Erick davis, deion Sanders, Merton Hanks as well as Haley and dean. At least that's what I think. What crosses up this defense is scrambling QB's. But those kinds of QB's defeat pretty much any defense out there too.

If Mahomes was a pocket passer, I think #6 would have been in the bag. How do defenses defense against offenses being a man down? I dont think it's possible, and I think that may be a reason that Kyle and John has focused on the offense and DLine so much. I think you just have to outscore teams like the Chiefs, Seachickens, and cardinals.
May 2, 2020 at 6:46 PM
  • mayo49
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 64,880
Originally posted by NCommand:

Man, NC - did you have to post that?
May 2, 2020 at 7:19 PM
Originally posted by mayo49:
Originally posted by NCommand:

Man, NC - did you have to post that?

Watch bosa from 02-04 sec, the hold is so fuken obvious, the oline literally holding an entire side of bosa which allowed Maholmes to step up on that throw.
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