Solomon Thomas, DT

Originally posted by JustWin2019:

PFF doesn't have any clue how to identify gap responsibility. They only use the term because they've heard of it before and want to sound like they're knowledgable and important. These are amateurs with no clue. And I've seen their metrics on one of their shows...they don't have a coach's eye. They try to turn everything about football into statistics, which anyone who understands the game knows is foolish. This is not baseball; you can not describe plays, or quality of play, with numbers.

How is Thomas not consistent? Aside from a few penalties (some of them bogus calls), he hasn't really had any negative plays. All of his contributions have been positive. He plays consistently when they put him on the field (at DT).

The point is, Thomas's opportunities have been limited because of the team's love of Buckner at 3 technique, their belief that Armstead is a better inside pass rusher than Thomas (which is why he usually plays 3rd downs next to Buckner), and Saleh's love of rotating linemen. As I pointed out before, Aaron Donald plays way more snaps for the Rams than Buckner plays here. Absolutely no defensive tackle could come in here and get the snaps required to make the number of plays you would expect out of a 3rd overall pick, unless Buckner got injured. Coaches don't phase out quality players like Buckner. And Saleh's not going to give any pure DT types who aren't named "Buckner" the 40+ snaps per game required to make that kind of impact.

Calculating the double team percentage would take too much work at this point in the season, but as I said, Thomas's pass rush opportunities have been few and far between. He has been mainly a run down specialist. When he has been on the field for pass plays, they have usually been short passes where the ball was out in a second flat and you would have to teleport to the QB to get there in time.

Thomas is 270-280 pounds of lean muscle. The DTs who weigh more than him only weigh more because they are either A. Taller (not a good thing; 6'0-6'4" is optimal DT height) or B. Have much more fat.

Thomas could hit the buffet and pack on fat if he wanted to, but he chooses not to because he doesn't think it will help him. He wants to be strong and fast.

Well I simply disagree with you regarding PFF being clueless. I don't think they're the end all be all, but it is a quantitative approach that can be applied to discussions. As far as not having a "coaches eye" they actually send their stats to be re-analyzed (for a 3rd time) by the Pro Coach Network, a group of former and current NFL coaches...Not everyone is right all the time, I get that.

270-280 LBs isn't the ideal weight of a DT. Outside of your aaron Donald there aren't many full-time DTs playing at that size (AD is 285) affectively. So we will disagree there.

You can say Thomas has dealt with more double teams in pass rush situations then buck/AA, but you can't supply any facts to back that up? I mean you're saying he's almost never playing on passing plays, yet he's getting more doubles than either guy?

I do agree he needs more opportunities. I've been saying that since last yr. I don't agree he's been as consistent as you keep saying though.

End of the day I trust our DL coach (who dictates snap counts) and our coaching staff overall on who should be playing and why. They feel AA/Buck are better overall players and it's hard to disagree with that at this pt.

Originally posted by TheWooLick:

Originally posted by bopicksix:

Can't play ST too much this year, gotta keep buckner value high enough to get good comp when he is traded in offseason and AA is extended. DJ/ST/Taylor ready to hold down the middle next year.

Trading Buckner should get Lynch fired. It would look like he was trying to justify the ST pick.

Lol bopicksix still on this silly quest SF isn't moving Buck.

Time for Thomas to step up and have a big game. Just get constant pressure on AR

Originally posted by genus49:

That's the thing...we need to move on from the whole top 3 pick thing. It's not going to change.

Be honest(and this goes for anyone else who wants to chime in) if he was a 5th round pick what would the evaluation be?

I'm pretty sure it would be - playing great for a 5h round pick.

But eventually draft spots go out the window. It sucks that for a #3 overall pick he hasn't played like one but do we just throw away a good player who can help our team because he didn't live up to his draft status?

People want to bash him and get rid of him strictly because of his draft spot. Last I checked depth is a key part of a team and our depth this year has allowed us to keep winning despite injuries once again rearing their ugly head.

I'm sorry, but you can't take away that we spent a top 3 pick on a guy who's been playing like a day 2/3 pick. That's the whole pt.

You're right if he was a 5th rd pick we'd be happy that he's been able to contribute and we would be happy to have depth. That would be good value. Not the case though.

He's getting paid a top 3 draft pick's salary as well. He's gonna make $9M next yr. I don't think he blows or is some monster liability, he's just failed to meet the standards of his draft spot (like a lot).

you want top-end production with that pick. We basically went 2-14 and then ended up drafting Thomas/foster horrible return for a s**t 2016 season. That top 3 pick is suppose to be a corner stone of the franchise for yrs to come. I don't even think we offer him a 5th yr option at this pt (I can't see how you would).

You know how I felt about ST. I loved his Intangibles, you know he's gonna give it 💯. I loved his first step as a DT. He was smoking IOL at Stanford. I loved his athletic ability.

I don't want him cut or anything (makes no sense financially), but his production hasn't come close to his draft slot. Hopefully it changes.

So genus49 is still holding out. Come on over and join us bruh

Originally posted by NYniner85:
I'm sorry, but you can't take away that we spent a top 3 pick on a guy who's been playing like a day 2/3 pick. That's the whole pt.

You're right if he was a 5th rd pick we'd be happy that he's been able to contribute and we would be happy to have depth. That would be good value. Not the case though.

He's getting paid a top 3 draft pick's salary as well. He's gonna make $9M next yr. I don't think he blows or is some monster liability, he's just failed to meet the standards of his draft spot (like a lot).

you want top-end production with that pick. We basically went 2-14 and then ended up drafting Thomas/foster horrible return for a s**t 2016 season. That top 3 pick is suppose to be a corner stone of the franchise for yrs to come. I don't even think we offer him a 5th yr option at this pt (I can't see how you would).

You know how I felt about ST. I loved his Intangibles, you know he's gonna give it 💯. I loved his first step as a DT. He was smoking IOL at Stanford. I loved his athletic ability.

I don't want him cut or anything (makes no sense financially), but his production hasn't come close to his draft slot. Hopefully it changes.

The issue i've been talking about is that people are using his draft status to evaluate him as a player to an extreme.

It's logical to say he's not playing like a top 3 pick. That cannot be argued against at this point. And maybe you're not in that boat but you've seen this thread long enough to understand that there are plenty of people who seem to take his lack of production per his draft spot as a personal insult and do want him gone.

We've seen it with Armstead, we've seen it with Ward and pretty much every player who isn't an instant impact player for us. That is my biggest issue with those type of posts.

At some point the draft slot is thrown out the window and players are either helping the team or not. Obviously salary comes into play but the further away from the draft you get it becomes bang for your buck.

If Thomas never plays like the IDL version of Bosa but he ends up being a solid player for us who can flash as a pass rusher and does a good job vs the run do we need to get rid of him just because he's not playing like a top 3 pick?

Obviously we'll see what happens. Regardless of what happens with Solly I just personally hate seeing fans of a team almost have glee like response if a guy doesn't play well. Just not the way I think. IMO if a guy is on this team unless they're a scumbag or clearly hurting the team then I want them to succeed. It's one thing to point out guys aren't playing well or not playing up to their draft spot. But basically bashing a kid without real analysis comes off petty as hell.

And while I think JustWin is way overboard with the praise for Solly he's at least looking at the plays and there have been plenty of our well respected posters who comment based on what they see in detail. Look at the posts itt.

Game ends where Solly doesn't have sexy numbers and you'll get people coming in here with stuff like "BUST" "Guy is useless/invisible"

Then johnydel or thl or guys who actually watch the film before commenting show up saying he didn't play that bad and the narrative changes.

Game ends with Solly showing something pretty sexy(I'll admit it's a rare situation) and all of a sudden people are more positive.

Let's see what happens with the kid the rest of this season. I know I was really looking forward to seeing him play inside with Bosa and Ford at edge with Buckner next to Thomas inside. With the injuries to Ford and Armstead having a career season that simply hasn't happened and considering how Armstead has played it would be stupid to take him off the field for Thomas at this point. But it's year 3 with first two years being a real kick to the junk for the kid. He can still show us something next year and be a legit player for us moving forward.

Originally posted by lamontb:
So genus49 is still holding out. Come on over and join us bruh

lol i'm in the middle. Thomas was a really bad #3 overall pick with the way he's played, that's pretty obvious by now.

I'm just hoping the flashes he's shown this year are able to become consistent play from him and he's able to salvage his career with us.

"We need to move on from the top 3 pick thing" is a statement I find to be absolutely absurd.

So we need to start ignoring reality and facts in attempt to pump this guy up?

Nope. Wont be me.

Originally posted by JustWin2019:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Actually PFF does grade gap responsibility in regards to run defense

https://www.pff.com/news/pro-how-pff-grades-run-defense

I bring up Bosa/Ford because Thomas HAS played DE. Bosa has also lined up as a 3-tech (not often).

Please show me the percentage of AA/Buck being doubled vs Thomas on passing plays.

I disagree he can't earn more snaps if he become more consistent in games. He's the 3rd overall pick in the draft, you don't think they want to give him opportunities? Imo practice is more about that weekly game planning and who's skill set matches up best vs said opponent.

Jones is mainly a 2 down NT "start" is just a word Thomas actually has more snaps then him...Jones was actually out last game and taylor had almost the same about of snaps as Thomas.

Look I'm not using the term bust, he's the 3 f**king overall pick in the draft and there isn't an objective person that can say he's been close to worth that draft capital. In regards to where he was drafted he's been a failure. He needs to be more consistent and hopefully he can earn more playing time.

What scheme works best for his skill-set? IMO this defense is best for him.

I will disagree that he's the proper size for a DT. He's like 280 tops.

Again I've been one of his biggest supporters, but we all watch the game same as you and the consistency isn't there for a top 3 pick. Imo no one would be throwing out the term bust if he was a 2nd/3rd rd pick.

PFF doesn't have any clue how to identify gap responsibility. They only use the term because they've heard of it before and want to sound like they're knowledgable and important. These are amateurs with no clue. And I've seen their metrics on one of their shows...they don't have a coach's eye. They try to turn everything about football into statistics, which anyone who understands the game knows is foolish. This is not baseball; you can not describe plays, or quality of play, with numbers.

How is Thomas not consistent? Aside from a few penalties (some of them bogus calls), he hasn't really had any negative plays. All of his contributions have been positive. He plays consistently when they put him on the field (at DT).

The point is, Thomas's opportunities have been limited because of the team's love of Buckner at 3 technique, their belief that Armstead is a better inside pass rusher than Thomas (which is why he usually plays 3rd downs next to Buckner), and Saleh's love of rotating linemen. As I pointed out before, Aaron Donald plays way more snaps for the Rams than Buckner plays here. Absolutely no defensive tackle could come in here and get the snaps required to make the number of plays you would expect out of a 3rd overall pick, unless Buckner got injured. Coaches don't phase out quality players like Buckner. And Saleh's not going to give any pure DT types who aren't named "Buckner" the 40+ snaps per game required to make that kind of impact.

Calculating the double team percentage would take too much work at this point in the season, but as I said, Thomas's pass rush opportunities have been few and far between. He has been mainly a run down specialist. When he has been on the field for pass plays, they have usually been short passes where the ball was out in a second flat and you would have to teleport to the QB to get there in time.

Thomas is 270-280 pounds of lean muscle. The DTs who weigh more than him only weigh more because they are either A. Taller (not a good thing; 6'0-6'4" is optimal DT height) or B. Have much more fat.

Thomas could hit the buffet and pack on fat if he wanted to, but he chooses not to because he doesn't think it will help him. He wants to be strong and fast.

Solly, get off the computer and go run some drills. Maybe then you'll get some more playing time .

Originally posted by genus49:

The issue i've been talking about is that people are using his draft status to evaluate him as a player to an extreme.

It's logical to say he's not playing like a top 3 pick. That cannot be argued against at this point. And maybe you're not in that boat but you've seen this thread long enough to understand that there are plenty of people who seem to take his lack of production per his draft spot as a personal insult and do want him gone.

We've seen it with Armstead, we've seen it with Ward and pretty much every player who isn't an instant impact player for us. That is my biggest issue with those type of posts.

At some point the draft slot is thrown out the window and players are either helping the team or not. Obviously salary comes into play but the further away from the draft you get it becomes bang for your buck.

If Thomas never plays like the IDL version of Bosa but he ends up being a solid player for us who can flash as a pass rusher and does a good job vs the run do we need to get rid of him just because he's not playing like a top 3 pick?

Obviously we'll see what happens. Regardless of what happens with Solly I just personally hate seeing fans of a team almost have glee like response if a guy doesn't play well. Just not the way I think. IMO if a guy is on this team unless they're a scumbag or clearly hurting the team then I want them to succeed. It's one thing to point out guys aren't playing well or not playing up to their draft spot. But basically bashing a kid without real analysis comes off petty as hell.

And while I think JustWin is way overboard with the praise for Solly he's at least looking at the plays and there have been plenty of our well respected posters who comment based on what they see in detail. Look at the posts itt.

Game ends where Solly doesn't have sexy numbers and you'll get people coming in here with stuff like "BUST" "Guy is useless/invisible"

Then johnydel or thl or guys who actually watch the film before commenting show up saying he didn't play that bad and the narrative changes.

Game ends with Solly showing something pretty sexy(I'll admit it's a rare situation) and all of a sudden people are more positive.

Let's see what happens with the kid the rest of this season. I know I was really looking forward to seeing him play inside with Bosa and Ford at edge with Buckner next to Thomas inside. With the injuries to Ford and Armstead having a career season that simply hasn't happened and considering how Armstead has played it would be stupid to take him off the field for Thomas at this point. But it's year 3 with first two years being a real kick to the junk for the kid. He can still show us something next year and be a legit player for us moving forward.

Right I know what you're saying and I understand it. I'm not gonna say he should be cut or whatever after every game.

The issue is you can't not take that draft value out of the equation. We're not talking about missing on the 50th pick in the draft. We're talking about 3rd overall. GMs can lose their job for f**king up that pick. Is it his fault he got taken that high? No, lynch reached. I was wrong as well and I have no problem admitting it.

I don't think he's play as horrible as some say (no way he's played as well as JustWin is saying). He's still young and learning. I do think SF is paying him entirely too much money for what he's done on the field so far as well (that comes with the high pick). Hopefully he can improve though.

I also can't throw him in the AA/Ward category, those guys dealt with yrs of injuries, Thomas not so much.

Let me ask you this do you think they put the 5th yr option on him this off season (its around $12M)? If it's a no-brainer to give the 5th yr option then it was a good pick. If not then you gotta question the pick. That's kinda how I look at 1st rd picks.

I've read some recent posts and I think I'm somewhere more negative than saying Thomas "if he was a 5th round pick we would be happy with his production".

I promise that I will be posting videos and/or gifs before the Baltimore game to prove this point. (The GF is visting from Arizona so I sure as hell am not going to work on that s**t while she is here)

I would agree with the bolded if this was nearly any other team. But my original post was to say that he's a liability compared to others on this roster. And we have 6th and 7th rounders who are outplaying Thomas in the run game with Jones and Taylor. We also have street free agents in Day and Moore (edge) who contribute more to the pass rush IMO. I have never said that Thomas is not worth a roster spot on any team... but this is the best Dline in football because we find quality players with late-round picks... which kinda proves to me that he's worth less than a 5th rounder to us at this point.

I had the same issue with Earl Mitchell starting over Jones and I think we can all see how much more production we have had since the change. I believe the coaches like Solly personally and if I was a coach I would want to give him reps to prove himself too. But the tape is saying he shouldn't be playing in front of anyone. Taylor and Jones should be having way more snaps than Solly not equal to or less.

And you cannot find any post of me bashing AA the same way. I thought he showed the speed to power and had other traits that I feel like he could really grow into something which he had. The issue was him was the mental part of the game. He would look like a chicken with his head cut off trying to locate the football sometimes. But now I believe he's figured it out in terms of controlling his movements and understanding the game overall.

With ST I don't see nearly the physical tools or skillset to grow to the type of player AA has become. I just don't think it's possible from what I have seen.

That doesn't mean I want him to fail and tbh I hope I am dead wrong. But I feel like it's being seen that I was correct in my evaluation of AA and I think I'm right about this one too.

At the end of the day, I am not worried about whether we keep Thomas or not. If we keep him, it likely means he's still the best depth option. If we don't, it means we've found someone better. Plain and simple.

All this debate from both ends of the spectrum gets tiring either way. We'll see how it pans out.

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
"We need to move on from the top 3 pick thing" is a statement I find to be absolutely absurd.

So we need to start ignoring reality and facts in attempt to pump this guy up?

Nope. Wont be me.

Good for you?

Who said pump him up? What is your solution?

Cut him? Trade him? Murder him?

He's a 49er. Either he plays well or not. His draft status at this point means nothing outside of giving fans ability to say whether he's playing up to his draft pick or not. He's not. End of story.

Now what?

Originally posted by OnTheClock:

At the end of the day, I am not worried about whether we keep Thomas or not. If we keep him, it likely means he's still the best depth option. If we don't, it means we've found someone better. Plain and simple.

All this debate from both ends of the spectrum gets tiring either way. We'll see how it pans out.

Agree completely, he's expensive depth tho lol I would be all for trading him for another top pick who hasn't lived up to their hype but who ?

Is it an excuse to say that this is his 2nd season in the league and that last season was a throwaway due to his personal tragedy? I'mma go with that and hope he does well in 2020, his 3rd season in the league.