The Baalke Meter

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Wu-5Rings:

Ok I'll entertain this,

At the rate we are getting rid of his draft picks? I dont see a trio of his draft picks being the foundation of any championship team?

Who do you see being that foundation?

What do you think Baalke was ding the whole time he waa here? Working with Scott and Nolan to build the foundation and then made them took over, had a great draft and added a ton of pieces to take us to a Championship level.

No matter which way you slice it, 1/2 the 53 and starters will still be Baalkes. The only difference between Lynch to Baalke is that Lynch is new to the organization.

If your bias is so strong you can't give credit where credit is due (during that time), there's no point in discussing this further.

He did more harm than good imho. If I give you that draft, one good draft is not nothing to be proud of when he failed in so many others, miserably.

*Especially flopping drafts when we were in Super Bowl contention.. 2012-2013 🤔
I mean Jim did come here and instantly won when the previous coaches couldn't..

Providing consistent draft picks is not too much to ask for a coach. Having 0 players from 2012 is unheard of.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by illinois9er:

Lynch > Baalke
Shannahan > Gase

That's, hopefully, the bottom line.

I was a huge Gase fan...I pounded the table for him.

Same here! Similar mold as Kyle... but I'd still take Kyle today so sometimes things happen for a reason.

Hard for me to say that right now with Gase already having a yr at HC and Kyle having zero. Love what we having going on no doubt....I'm hopefully optimistic

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Hard for me to say that right now with Gase already having a yr at HC and Kyle having zero. Love what we having going on no doubt....I'm hopefully optimistic

He'll get there...but I was/am a big fan of Gase too. He's done a great job thus far.

Originally posted by Wu-5Rings:

He did more harm than good imho. If I give you that draft, one good draft is not nothing to be proud of when he failed in so many others, miserably.

*Especially flopping drafts when we were in Super Bowl contention.. 2012-2013 🤔
I mean Jim did come here and instantly won when the previous coaches couldn't..

Providing consistent draft picks is not too much to ask for a coach. Having 0 players from 2012 is unheard of.

Good Lord man...this is exactly what I'm talking about. You give Scott credit when Nolan was the GM and then completely ignore their 2008 and 2009 drafts while focusing solely on Baalke's 2012 draft. You just aren't capable of being remotely objective when it comes to Jim/Trent.

So is Kaepernick a Championship caliber QB today as well, per Jim? LOL

It's all good... let's just move onto what matters today.

ShanaLynch.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Wu-5Rings:

He did more harm than good imho. If I give you that draft, one good draft is not nothing to be proud of when he failed in so many others, miserably.

*Especially flopping drafts when we were in Super Bowl contention.. 2012-2013 🤔
I mean Jim did come here and instantly won when the previous coaches couldn't..

Providing consistent draft picks is not too much to ask for a coach. Having 0 players from 2012 is unheard of.

Good Lord man...this is exactly what I'm talking about. You give Scott credit when Nolan was the GM and then completely ignore their 2008 and 2009 drafts while focusing solely on Baalke's 2012 draft. You just aren't capable of being remotely objective when it comes to Jim/Trent.

So is Kaepernick a Championship caliber QB today as well, per Jim? LOL

It's all good... let's just move onto what matters today.

ShanaLynch.

Nah, as far as credit.

His reports of undermining, not getting along with coaches, fixations with acl prospects had a part in it.

You cant hold up one draft like its the holy grail, sure he did good.

But thats not enough, you cant give 0 players to a coach, you and your staff need to find players that can help not Hurt us. He got cute and did more harm than good, has nothing to do with jim and trent, more like coach and gm and the GM imho hurt us more than anything

Thats one good draft per how many years?

Agree to disagree

Originally posted by Wu-5Rings:

Nah, as far as credit.

His reports of undermining, not getting along with coaches, fixations with acl prospects had a part in it.

You cant hold up one draft like its the holy grail, sure he did good.

But thats not enough, you cant give 0 players to a coach, you and your staff need to find players that can help not Hurt us. He got cute and did more harm than good, has nothing to do with jim and trent, more like coach and gm and the GM imho hurst us more than anything

Thats one good draft per how many years?

Agree to disagree

I do think that the 2016 draft has the potential to be Baalke's best if Buckner and Robinson continue to come on and become top flight players, if Garnett develops into a quality starter at guard and one or two of the other guys come around.


I think Baalke's inability to manage properly and handle the other 75% of GM responsibilities were a much bigger issue than his scouting ability.


He has the right mindset to be a scout but shouldnt be the face or key decision maker for a franchise.


He lacks the temperament for the job, something that Lynch appears to possess in spades so hopefully the drama between front office and coaching staff is now a thing of the past although time will tell just how good a job he will do in terms of talent acquisition.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Hard for me to say that right now with Gase already having a yr at HC and Kyle having zero. Love what we having going on no doubt....I'm hopefully optimistic

He'll get there...but I was/am a big fan of Gase too. He's done a great job thus far.

Yeah he has....I supported baalke for a while, but choosing Tomsula over Gase or trying to force Tom on Gase was my last straw with Trent

Originally posted by NCommand:
Happy Father's Day to you and all.

Yeah, we certainly wasted time, no doubt. Obviously, the problem was we needed a whole new front office or one that was massively restructured and built up (like now) --- not a one-man show. And we also needed a real NFL HC and staff (like now).

I'm sure it's hard to give Jed some credit but so far, so good.

They literally restructured the FO exactly how I wanted (returned to our old structure), got the coach I wanted and are implementing the systems I want.

So while I can be upset with the past 3 years, a new regime would turn over half the roster anyhow and if nothing, players need years to grow anyhow so maybe now they can start to show some talent.

For me personally, if I had a chance to choose Kyle or Jim, it's a no brainer for me.

Now, when we get the talent level up like we had, will Kyle have similar success? We'll just have to see... and see if that success can be sustained longer.

Heh, I like the way you think!
Kyle vs Jim. Kyle is younger, no heart problems but unproven, vs Harbaugh - proven super bowl veteran coach, with a history of personality clashes. I agree, I'll take Kyle. Big issue is getting along with the owner, and so far Kyle seems to not have that obnoxious personality that drives everyone crazy like Harbaugh did. Bigger issues is making sure Jed Stays the heck away from football after he's handed the keys to the kingdom to Kyle. I have *total* confidence in a guy like John Lynch being able to spot critical defensive back talent in the lower rounds (6,7, undrafted) because the guy knows his defensive pass football. He's played it at a very high level. Kinda like Steve Kerr knows his 3 point shooters, I believe John will have that magic touch with DB's. I mean a pass rush easily solves DB problems in a lot of ways, and what does he do in the first and 2nd picks? Those decisions will make our defensive backfield look golden, and he might be able to squeeze some draft capital from lesser skilled DB's that look good in our system, trading them to clueless bottom feeder franchises. Key with Kyle is if he screws up on a draft pick, like say Joe Williams, he can't be going back to the owner and blaming John. I don't think he'll do that to a good friend of his anyway, but point is, if Kyle screws up, he has to man up and fix it. Walsh drafted guys like Newton Williams and Vince Williams who stank, so he fixed it and got Roger Craig the next year. What gets me excited is this guy is young and I can see him have a Bellicheat kind of career if he ever gets his Tom Brady franchise QB.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Hard for me to say that right now with Gase already having a yr at HC and Kyle having zero. Love what we having going on no doubt....I'm hopefully optimistic

He'll get there...but I was/am a big fan of Gase too. He's done a great job thus far.

Yeah he has....I supported baalke for a while, but choosing Tomsula over Gase or trying to force Tom on Gase was my last straw with Trent

Yeah, I was skeptical of that report at first but now, it certainly lines up. Nolan, Singletary, Tomsula, Kelly, etc. Good Lord we hired terrible HC's.

By the time Baalke was fired, there was a long grocery long list of justifications for that firing. No doubt.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by illinois9er:
Lynch > Baalke
Shannahan > Gase

That's, hopefully, the bottom line.

I was a huge Gase fan...I pounded the table for him.

You could have put Bill Walsh in there for either Tomsula, Gase, or Kelly and even Walsh would have sucked, not because any of these guys are bad coaches, far from it. I think the structure where Baalke was too powerful did those coaches in. Not saying either Tomsula or Kelly were either bad or good, just that they never really had a chance with Baalke ruling things, not listening to position coaches, not communicating, and basically kissing the owners to save his own .

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Happy Father's Day to you and all.

Yeah, we certainly wasted time, no doubt. Obviously, the problem was we needed a whole new front office or one that was massively restructured and built up (like now) --- not a one-man show. And we also needed a real NFL HC and staff (like now).

I'm sure it's hard to give Jed some credit but so far, so good.

They literally restructured the FO exactly how I wanted (returned to our old structure), got the coach I wanted and are implementing the systems I want.

So while I can be upset with the past 3 years, a new regime would turn over half the roster anyhow and if nothing, players need years to grow anyhow so maybe now they can start to show some talent.

For me personally, if I had a chance to choose Kyle or Jim, it's a no brainer for me.

Now, when we get the talent level up like we had, will Kyle have similar success? We'll just have to see... and see if that success can be sustained longer.

Heh, I like the way you think!
Kyle vs Jim. Kyle is younger, no heart problems but unproven, vs Harbaugh - proven super bowl veteran coach, with a history of personality clashes. I agree, I'll take Kyle. Big issue is getting along with the owner, and so far Kyle seems to not have that obnoxious personality that drives everyone crazy like Harbaugh did. Bigger issues is making sure Jed Stays the heck away from football after he's handed the keys to the kingdom to Kyle. I have *total* confidence in a guy like John Lynch being able to spot critical defensive back talent in the lower rounds (6,7, undrafted) because the guy knows his defensive pass football. He's played it at a very high level. Kinda like Steve Kerr knows his 3 point shooters, I believe John will have that magic touch with DB's. I mean a pass rush easily solves DB problems in a lot of ways, and what does he do in the first and 2nd picks? Those decisions will make our defensive backfield look golden, and he might be able to squeeze some draft capital from lesser skilled DB's that look good in our system, trading them to clueless bottom feeder franchises. Key with Kyle is if he screws up on a draft pick, like say Joe Williams, he can't be going back to the owner and blaming John. I don't think he'll do that to a good friend of his anyway, but point is, if Kyle screws up, he has to man up and fix it. Walsh drafted guys like Newton Williams and Vince Williams who stank, so he fixed it and got Roger Craig the next year. What gets me excited is this guy is young and I can see him have a Bellicheat kind of career if he ever gets his Tom Brady franchise QB.

Yeah, Baalke clearly only had eyes for defense and he had some great picks there and acquisitions and he and Fangio were on the same page.

Lynch will probably be the exact same way for Saleh (note our first 3 picks). The difference is that Lynch took the extra step and hired several other potentially top notch front office staff, fully admitting he needs that to be successful (humble ego). And then, he adds the best X's and O's HC to help him and the FO with the offense (John's weakness). That was Baalkes fatal flaw. He tried to do it solely and had horrible HC's to boot switching systems annually.

The other great thing about Lynch is his honesty. He admitted to fans we're rebuilding, so be patient. He set up realistic expectations. Bring the history back. You could see their exact plan in free agency and the draft. And it will be consistent because of the two systems now in place...proven, battle tested systems.

Yeah, agree, if Jed can stay out of the way and the marriage between John and Kyle stay strong (note that both are big family guys themselves), we have the license to not only be successful but be in position to sustain it for a long time.

Fingers crossed!

Originally posted by Wu-5Rings:
Nah, as far as credit.

His reports of undermining, not getting along with coaches, fixations with acl prospects had a part in it.

You cant hold up one draft like its the holy grail, sure he did good.

But thats not enough, you cant give 0 players to a coach, you and your staff need to find players that can help not Hurt us. He got cute and did more harm than good, has nothing to do with jim and trent, more like coach and gm and the GM imho hurt us more than anything

Thats one good draft per how many years?

Agree to disagree

Totally agree. The job of a GM is sorta like the chicken or the egg question. Is a great player great because he's talented, or because the coach developed him into a talented football player who becomes great? Personally, I think the GM's job isn't to pick great players for the Coach, I think he's to present to the coach the talent that is available to him in a given season (sorta like arranging the paint for the master painter) and let the coach pick and choose which paint to use and let the coach paint the picture he wants. I think Baalke tried to not only pick the paint, but paint the picture too.

I go back to guys like Bill Ring, Jeff Stover, Renaldo Nehemiah - who were basically good non-football athletes and because of coaching, turned into very productive players for us. It's the GM's job to uncover the talent and do the grind of assembling the draft board, and making sure the Coach knows everything there is about each player on that draft board. That's pretty much where the GM job ends and the coaches job begins, I think.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

I do think that the 2016 draft has the potential to be Baalke's best if Buckner and Robinson continue to come on and become top flight players, if Garnett develops into a quality starter at guard and one or two of the other guys come around.


I think Baalke's inability to manage properly and handle the other 75% of GM responsibilities were a much bigger issue than his scouting ability.


He has the right mindset to be a scout but shouldnt be the face or key decision maker for a franchise.


He lacks the temperament for the job, something that Lynch appears to possess in spades so hopefully the drama between front office and coaching staff is now a thing of the past although time will tell just how good a job he will do in terms of talent acquisition.

Agreed...fans seem to think that every other GM in the league hit on every draft pick. If fans really looked into other GMs they'd see how much they fail...they'd also see what they may not want too...that Baalke was right there with the other 9 GMs we interviewed with one major exception...no FQB. As to the OTHER responsibilities of his GM duties and ego he gets a big

Originally posted by Giedi:

Totally agree. The job of a GM is sorta like the chicken or the egg question. Is a great player great because he's talented, or because the coach developed him into a talented football player who becomes great? Personally, I think the GM's job isn't to pick great players for the Coach, I think he's to present to the coach the talent that is available to him in a given season (sorta like arranging the paint for the master painter) and let the coach pick and choose which paint to use and let the coach paint the picture he wants. I think Baalke tried to not only pick the paint, but paint the picture too.

I go back to guys like Bill Ring, Jeff Stover, Renaldo Nehemiah - who were basically good non-football athletes and because of coaching, turned into very productive players for us. It's the GM's job to uncover the talent and do the grind of assembling the draft board, and making sure the Coach knows everything there is about each player on that draft board. That's pretty much where the GM job ends and the coaches job begins, I think.

Agreed...and when you have clear systems in place, it makes that marriage and job much easier too.

When you are drafting talent for Nolan to Singletary to Harbaugh to Tomsula to Kelly, etc. good Lord. When you had stability in Fangio, it was easy...then from Mangini to O'Neil to now, Selah. And now Kyle.

With Kyle and Saleh and starting from scratch, everyone in that front office know exactly what they need at each position. It's literally, mapped out. It was the first thing they did as a team.

...now it's just a matter of execution.

Originally posted by NCommand:
Yeah, Baalke clearly only had eyes for defense and he had some great picks there and acquisitions and he and Fangio were on the same page.

Lynch will probably be the exact same way for Saleh (note our first 3 picks). The difference is that Lynch took the extra step and hired several other potentially top notch front office staff, fully admitting he needs that to be successful (humble ego). And then, he adds the best X's and O's HC to help him and the FO with the offense (John's weakness). That was Baalkes fatal flaw. He tried to do it solely and had horrible HC's to boot switching systems annually.

The other great thing about Lynch is his honesty. He admitted to fans we're rebuilding, so be patient. He set up realistic expectations. Bring the history back. You could see their exact plan in free agency and the draft. And it will be consistent because of the two systems now in place...proven, battle tested systems.

Yeah, agree, if Jed can stay out of the way and the marriage between John and Kyle stay strong (note that both are big family guys themselves), we have the license to not only be successful but be in position to sustain it for a long time.

Fingers crossed!

Very good point about John Lynch's humble demeanor and his skills as a public relations guy. He really has a way with the audience (us football fans). I'm thinking I hope he can play the media game very well (possibility like the way a guy like Obama or Trump can) in terms of football presentation and selling. So like a Kirk Cousins - he can sell the football franchise side to Kirk, and turn around and sell the fans about a football guy like a Kirk Cousins. Through his media presence, he might be able to attract guys like an aging Justin Smith (aka Elvis) and undrafted free agents because of his media saavy. I'm sure he played up the fact that we have a lot of room capwise to make an undrafted free agents time worth while to come by and try out with the 49ers. Once we are winning, he'll probably switch that to, being exposed on a championship winning team will help that Undrafted Free agent earn more money down the line - or something like that. I know Cheat Carroll plays it big up there in Seadderall Land, where they say they have a very Undrafted friendly atmosphere there - where they say to the undrafteds, we don't care about draft position - you will be allowed to compete and beat the number 1 draft pick and start in front of a number 1 pick - if you can beat him. I think that's going to be a big deal (the media saavyness of a John Lynch) attracting undrafted talent, because Bill Bellicheat's draft position stinks every year - but dang it to hell - he still makes the playoffs every friggin year. I think that's going to be one of the bigger roles of John Lynch is to attract talent vs just drafting talent.