The Baalke Meter

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Wu-5Rings:
Thats all I want, lets learn from it and move on. So when that time comes we might be in a scenario where we are 1 or 2 players away and we don't hesitate to make those moves.. We pounce, we attack and hopefully next year we get our franchise Qb in the draft.

Amen brother! I get the "sense" ShanaLynch would be willing to make that bold move when needed.

That franchise QB is the key. When we had Steve and Joe, this team was elite pretty much most of their careers here. Finding that guy is key. How do you do that, is the biggest question ShanaLynch has to answer and figure out. I agree with Wu-5rings that ShanaLynch has to be willing, but not need to, spend a lot of draft capital on the QB position. If they see a guy, they said they would go after him. This next draft, says the Draft Nerds of the WebZone, is one of the strongest QB crops in a long time. I expect them to really spend a high draft pick, if needed, to get that guy they want (assuming **none** of the current 49er QB on the squad has Franchise QB potential). I think it might be worth trading this years number 1 and number 2, and next years 1 - to get that QB - if that's what's needed to move up in the 2018 draft to get that top flight QB. (I leave it to the draft nerds to figure out of that's a good value move or not).

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Wu-5Rings:

Thats all I want, lets learn from it and move on. So when that time comes we might be in a scenario where we are 1 or 2 players away and we don't hesitate to make those moves.. We pounce, we attack and hopefully next year we get our franchise Qb in the draft.

Amen brother! I get the "sense" ShanaLynch would be willing to make that bold move when needed.

That franchise QB is the key. When we had Steve and Joe, this team was elite pretty much most of their careers here. Finding that guy is key. How do you do that, is the biggest question ShanaLynch has to answer and figure out. I agree with Wu-5rings that ShanaLynch has to be willing, but not need to, spend a lot of draft capital on the QB position. If they see a guy, they said they would go after him. This next draft, says the Draft Nerds of the WebZone, is one of the strongest QB crops in a long time. I expect them to really spend a high draft pick, if needed, to get that guy they want (assuming **none** of the current 49er QB on the squad has Franchise QB potential). I think it might be worth trading this years number 1 and number 2, and next years 1 - to get that QB - if that's what's needed to move up in the 2018 draft to get that top flight QB. (I leave it to the draft nerds to figure out of that's a good value move or not).

Just a thot, Giedi, but is it possible we don't need a Joe Montana nor a Steve Young to win it all? I always look at that Ravens SB champion, with you know who at QB....yes, Trent Dilfer...not the first guy that would come to mind as a Qb who won the SB. My question is could we perhaps somehow finesse the "Best QB in the league" with a decent QB, perhaps so the Hoyer type, and then make up for the rest with the best OC/HC in the business...ok, not best but in the same area code? Calling great games can sure make a Qb look better than he really is. If we have a steady Eddie QB, like a Hoyer, who has good mechanics, knows the WCO, and can run the team just fine, thank you....might he be good enough with the play calling of Kyle to end up with a QB who plays better than he is, thanks in great part to superb game and play calls by the OC/HC. If Dlifer could do it, so could some other journeyman Qb. I am not advocating not getting the best qb we can, but rather am saying the Ravens, for one, went all the way with a qB not generally thot of as the best in the business.

Hence if we don't get that hot shot qb, could we win with a Hoyer like qB plus a superb play caller like kyle? It has been done before, so no reason it can't be done again. Still , i want that top flite Qb...but who is to say that the highly touted guys at Qb right now in college will still look like hot shots come next draft? Maybe we can get by, with a good fundamentals qB and the best playcaller in the league...paired up with a top 5 D? Not saying it will happen, but it is another route to get to where we want to be, should the FR QB not be in our future. With the above combination, we still would be able to take a shot at winning it all. Again, i much prefer that FR QB....but it is possible we don't get one. All i am suggesting is that is not the end of the world for us. There are other routes.

Originally posted by fly15:
Yes, this was a horrible idea

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Wu-5Rings:

Thats all I want, lets learn from it and move on. So when that time comes we might be in a scenario where we are 1 or 2 players away and we don't hesitate to make those moves.. We pounce, we attack and hopefully next year we get our franchise Qb in the draft.

Amen brother! I get the "sense" ShanaLynch would be willing to make that bold move when needed.

That franchise QB is the key. When we had Steve and Joe, this team was elite pretty much most of their careers here. Finding that guy is key. How do you do that, is the biggest question ShanaLynch has to answer and figure out. I agree with Wu-5rings that ShanaLynch has to be willing, but not need to, spend a lot of draft capital on the QB position. If they see a guy, they said they would go after him. This next draft, says the Draft Nerds of the WebZone, is one of the strongest QB crops in a long time. I expect them to really spend a high draft pick, if needed, to get that guy they want (assuming **none** of the current 49er QB on the squad has Franchise QB potential). I think it might be worth trading this years number 1 and number 2, and next years 1 - to get that QB - if that's what's needed to move up in the 2018 draft to get that top flight QB. (I leave it to the draft nerds to figure out of that's a good value move or not).

Just a thot, Giedi, but is it possible we don't need a Joe Montana nor a Steve Young to win it all? I always look at that Ravens SB champion, with you know who at QB....yes, Trent Dilfer...not the first guy that would come to mind as a Qb who won the SB. My question is could we perhaps somehow finesse the "Best QB in the league" with a decent QB, perhaps so the Hoyer type, and then make up for the rest with the best OC/HC in the business...ok, not best but in the same area code? Calling great games can sure make a Qb look better than he really is. If we have a steady Eddie QB, like a Hoyer, who has good mechanics, knows the WCO, and can run the team just fine, thank you....might he be good enough with the play calling of Kyle to end up with a QB who plays better than he is, thanks in great part to superb game and play calls by the OC/HC. If Dlifer could do it, so could some other journeyman Qb. I am not advocating not getting the best qb we can, but rather am saying the Ravens, for one, went all the way with a qB not generally thot of as the best in the business.

Hence if we don't get that hot shot qb, could we win with a Hoyer like qB plus a superb play caller like kyle? It has been done before, so no reason it can't be done again. Still , i want that top flite Qb...but who is to say that the highly touted guys at Qb right now in college will still look like hot shots come next draft? Maybe we can get by, with a good fundamentals qB and the best playcaller in the league...paired up with a top 5 D? Not saying it will happen, but it is another route to get to where we want to be, should the FR QB not be in our future. With the above combination, we still would be able to take a shot at winning it all. Again, i much prefer that FR QB....but it is possible we don't get one. All i am suggesting is that is not the end of the world for us. There are other routes.

Its been done before. Mark Rypien springs to mind. With a good line he was a decent qb but totally dependent on that line.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Wu-5Rings:

Thats all I want, lets learn from it and move on. So when that time comes we might be in a scenario where we are 1 or 2 players away and we don't hesitate to make those moves.. We pounce, we attack and hopefully next year we get our franchise Qb in the draft.

Amen brother! I get the "sense" ShanaLynch would be willing to make that bold move when needed.

That franchise QB is the key. When we had Steve and Joe, this team was elite pretty much most of their careers here. Finding that guy is key. How do you do that, is the biggest question ShanaLynch has to answer and figure out. I agree with Wu-5rings that ShanaLynch has to be willing, but not need to, spend a lot of draft capital on the QB position. If they see a guy, they said they would go after him. This next draft, says the Draft Nerds of the WebZone, is one of the strongest QB crops in a long time. I expect them to really spend a high draft pick, if needed, to get that guy they want (assuming **none** of the current 49er QB on the squad has Franchise QB potential). I think it might be worth trading this years number 1 and number 2, and next years 1 - to get that QB - if that's what's needed to move up in the 2018 draft to get that top flight QB. (I leave it to the draft nerds to figure out of that's a good value move or not).

True...we also have to be realistic. Wu brought up ODB. Sure, we could have moved up to get him but we'd be giving up our entire draft to do it. And did we have a WCO in place, a great coaching staff, a FQB in place and was he the missing piece we needed to win a Championship? Life ain't Madden. Kyle just talked about mortgaging their future. He won't do it... with the caveat understanding that he 'would' if this was the final piece to the puzzle.

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Wu-5Rings:
Thats all I want, lets learn from it and move on. So when that time comes we might be in a scenario where we are 1 or 2 players away and we don't hesitate to make those moves.. We pounce, we attack and hopefully next year we get our franchise Qb in the draft.

Amen brother! I get the "sense" ShanaLynch would be willing to make that bold move when needed.

That franchise QB is the key. When we had Steve and Joe, this team was elite pretty much most of their careers here. Finding that guy is key. How do you do that, is the biggest question ShanaLynch has to answer and figure out. I agree with Wu-5rings that ShanaLynch has to be willing, but not need to, spend a lot of draft capital on the QB position. If they see a guy, they said they would go after him. This next draft, says the Draft Nerds of the WebZone, is one of the strongest QB crops in a long time. I expect them to really spend a high draft pick, if needed, to get that guy they want (assuming **none** of the current 49er QB on the squad has Franchise QB potential). I think it might be worth trading this years number 1 and number 2, and next years 1 - to get that QB - if that's what's needed to move up in the 2018 draft to get that top flight QB. (I leave it to the draft nerds to figure out of that's a good value move or not).

Just a thot, Giedi, but is it possible we don't need a Joe Montana nor a Steve Young to win it all? I always look at that Ravens SB champion, with you know who at QB....yes, Trent Dilfer...not the first guy that would come to mind as a Qb who won the SB. My question is could we perhaps somehow finesse the "Best QB in the league" with a decent QB, perhaps so the Hoyer type, and then make up for the rest with the best OC/HC in the business...ok, not best but in the same area code? Calling great games can sure make a Qb look better than he really is. If we have a steady Eddie QB, like a Hoyer, who has good mechanics, knows the WCO, and can run the team just fine, thank you....might he be good enough with the play calling of Kyle to end up with a QB who plays better than he is, thanks in great part to superb game and play calls by the OC/HC. If Dlifer could do it, so could some other journeyman Qb. I am not advocating not getting the best qb we can, but rather am saying the Ravens, for one, went all the way with a qB not generally thot of as the best in the business.

Hence if we don't get that hot shot qb, could we win with a Hoyer like qB plus a superb play caller like kyle? It has been done before, so no reason it can't be done again. Still , i want that top flite Qb...but who is to say that the highly touted guys at Qb right now in college will still look like hot shots come next draft? Maybe we can get by, with a good fundamentals qB and the best playcaller in the league...paired up with a top 5 D? Not saying it will happen, but it is another route to get to where we want to be, should the FR QB not be in our future. With the above combination, we still would be able to take a shot at winning it all. Again, i much prefer that FR QB....but it is possible we don't get one. All i am suggesting is that is not the end of the world for us. There are other routes.

I agree absolutely. If you look at Franchise QB's - that go on to win super bowls, they have a good coach, they have a good running game and good players catching his passes, and a top of the line defense. Again, it's a team game. The difference between a Franchise QB and a regular QB is the fact that FQB's can throw that risky dangerous pass that 9 times out of 10 will be intercepted, but they have the ability to make it succeed. They do it by sheer physical ability (Terry Bradshaw, John Elway) and/or anticipation, touch, and timing (Joe, Tom Brady and Steve). They just have that ability that nobody else on the planet have to make things happen despite the odds saying that it cannot happen. The other difference between a Franchise QB and a regular QB is that you have to surround a regular QB with an outstanding supporting cast to win super bowls. Once that cast is gone, generally that QB can't make it past the regular season. A FQB has the ability to take an average offense and make it a playoff caliber offense because of his playing ability. That makes it easier to devote more draft, cap and free agency capital to the defense. (you know the mantra - defense wins super bowls ) If you want this team to be in the playoff hunt *every* year vs occasionally - you need that Franchise Level Quarterback.

Originally posted by English:
Its been done before. Mark Rypien springs to mind. With a good line he was a decent qb but totally dependent on that line.

Agree... but I wouldn't sacrifice two years worth of draft picks (a la Mike Ditka) to get an average QB. But I would to get a John Elway, Bret Farve Peyton Manning. And again, there are Franchise QB's in other rounds - the 3rd, the 6th etc... and sometimes (although less often) free agency in Jim Plunkett, Ken Stabler, and Steve Young. ShanaLynch will just have to keep picking QB's or trading for them - wherever they think they need to - until they get that FQB. It may take a while, or maybe they have that guy already, only time will tell. But if they don't get that FQB, they will not have a job for long. Look at Bellicheat, he's been the HC for the Pats before dirt was invented. I'm thinking once Tom Brady retires, he'll probably retire too. Another coach that coached a long time - Don Shula, he had two franchise QB's in Bob Griese and Dan Marino. That dude coached till he was 200 years old!

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by English:
Its been done before. Mark Rypien springs to mind. With a good line he was a decent qb but totally dependent on that line.

Agree... but I wouldn't sacrifice two years worth of draft picks (a la Mike Ditka) to get an average QB. But I would to get a John Elway, Bret Farve Peyton Manning. And again, there are Franchise QB's in other rounds - the 3rd, the 6th etc... and sometimes (although less often) free agency in Jim Plunkett, Ken Stabler, and Steve Young. ShanaLynch will just have to keep picking QB's or trading for them - wherever they think they need to - until they get that FQB. It may take a while, or maybe they have that guy already, only time will tell. But if they don't get that FQB, they will not have a job for long. Look at Bellicheat, he's been the HC for the Pats before dirt was invented. I'm thinking once Tom Brady retires, he'll probably retire too. Another coach that coached a long time - Don Shula, he had two franchise QB's in Bob Griese and Dan Marino. That dude coached till he was 200 years old!

In this era, it is easy to find a short term success young QB because of the way the league has come in terms of passing and rules. It is still a process to try and get that traditional QB who can learn how to truly play the game. Shanahan's system is about that traditional QB so it may be difficult finding that one unless he can really build a strong run game and defense while inserting a highly accurate QB that can make presnap reads.

Originally posted by NCommand:
True...we also have to be realistic. Wu brought up ODB. Sure, we could have moved up to get him but we'd be giving up our entire draft to do it. And did we have a WCO in place, a great coaching staff, a FQB in place and was he the missing piece we needed to win a Championship? Life ain't Madden. Kyle just talked about mortgaging their future. He won't do it... with the caveat understanding that he 'would' if this was the final piece to the puzzle.

I think you don't need to mortgage the future to get your franchise to 8-8 (mediocrity) all three ways to get players will easily get you to mediocrity, that's what the NFL wants. They call it *parity* instead of mediocrity, though. But past 8-8, that's when you get into mortgage the future territory, because I remember when we had 12+ wins, all of a sudden we had tremendous cap problems, and when we went 10+ wins three straight years - we started hemorrhaging great players to other teams. That's when the mortgaging starts to happen, when we start losing good players and the coach panics and overpays certain players and get caught in dead money when they get injured or age quickly once they get their guaranteed payoff, and just basically retire even though they are still on the team.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Wu-5Rings:
Thats all I want, lets learn from it and move on. So when that time comes we might be in a scenario where we are 1 or 2 players away and we don't hesitate to make those moves.. We pounce, we attack and hopefully next year we get our franchise Qb in the draft.

Amen brother! I get the "sense" ShanaLynch would be willing to make that bold move when needed.

That franchise QB is the key. When we had Steve and Joe, this team was elite pretty much most of their careers here. Finding that guy is key. How do you do that, is the biggest question ShanaLynch has to answer and figure out. I agree with Wu-5rings that ShanaLynch has to be willing, but not need to, spend a lot of draft capital on the QB position. If they see a guy, they said they would go after him. This next draft, says the Draft Nerds of the WebZone, is one of the strongest QB crops in a long time. I expect them to really spend a high draft pick, if needed, to get that guy they want (assuming **none** of the current 49er QB on the squad has Franchise QB potential). I think it might be worth trading this years number 1 and number 2, and next years 1 - to get that QB - if that's what's needed to move up in the 2018 draft to get that top flight QB. (I leave it to the draft nerds to figure out of that's a good value move or not).

True...we also have to be realistic. Wu brought up ODB. Sure, we could have moved up to get him but we'd be giving up our entire draft to do it. And did we have a WCO in place, a great coaching staff, a FQB in place and was he the missing piece we needed to win a Championship? Life ain't Madden. Kyle just talked about mortgaging their future. He won't do it... with the caveat understanding that he 'would' if this was the final piece to the puzzle.

Should have given up all our picks in 2012 to draft Luck.

Originally posted by Joecool:
In this era, it is easy to find a short term success young QB because of the way the league has come in terms of passing and rules. It is still a process to try and get that traditional QB who can learn how to truly play the game. Shanahan's system is about that traditional QB so it may be difficult finding that one unless he can really build a strong run game and defense while inserting a highly accurate QB that can make presnap reads.

Yeah, for sure it will take a while, and accuracy is kind of hard to define. You can have an accurate QB, and the pass route says go in front of the LB stop and go back the way you came. The WR stops in front of the LB and then goes in the wrong direction, meanwhile the QB has released the pass right where the WR was supposed to be and instead the LB is there and runs it in for a TD and who gets blamed? Yup, the QB. Yeah, it's going to take a while to make sure everybody is on the same page. It took Walsh 3 years, but that was when nobody was running the WCO, it should take a bit less time now that we got players from other teams that ran similar systems. But yeah, it will take a while.

Originally posted by SoCold:
Should have given up all our picks in 2012 to draft Luck.

Man, if you had a time machine and could go back and tell HarBaalke that and convince them to do that, we'd probably still have Harbaugh here yelling at Jed during team meetings!

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by SoCold:
Should have given up all our picks in 2012 to draft Luck.

Man, if you had a time machine and could go back and tell HarBaalke that and convince them to do that, we'd probably still have Harbaugh here yelling at Jed during team meetings!

or when Trent moved up in the 2011 draft to take Dalton (per Jim's request) and Cincy crushed his dreams they should have just passed on a QB then instead of taking Kap. Could have drafted Cousins in the 3rd round the following year.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by Joecool:

In this era, it is easy to find a short term success young QB because of the way the league has come in terms of passing and rules. It is still a process to try and get that traditional QB who can learn how to truly play the game. Shanahan's system is about that traditional QB so it may be difficult finding that one unless he can really build a strong run game and defense while inserting a highly accurate QB that can make presnap reads.

Yeah, for sure it will take a while, and accuracy is kind of hard to define. You can have an accurate QB, and the pass route says go in front of the LB stop and go back the way you came. The WR stops in front of the LB and then goes in the wrong direction, meanwhile the QB has released the pass right where the WR was supposed to be and instead the LB is there and runs it in for a TD and who gets blamed? Yup, the QB. Yeah, it's going to take a while to make sure everybody is on the same page. It took Walsh 3 years, but that was when nobody was running the WCO, it should take a bit less time now that we got players from other teams that ran similar systems. But yeah, it will take a while.

One other thot..or two. We not only have a great OC/playcaller ,but we also have a guy who knows QB talent...other talent , too, but especially QB talent . More importantly, he also knows how to coach up QBs who have the fundamentals, into something much greater than they would have become under a , well, tomsul, for example. But kyle has worked wonders with 3 different QBs, and all came out the other end way better than when they started. So a)kyle knows Qb talent, and b) knows how to coach it up. If we get that FR QB, then that is ideal. But should it not happen, we still have one of the best in the business to take what we have and coach that up to the max. That is a huge advantage, and is one of the reasons i will not be "just devastated" if we don't get the next Luck or name your favorite. I think kyle has shown he can take a qB with the fundamentals and make him a whale of a lot better than he was. To win, we have to have that top 5 D , the top flite running game, and some receivers that are better than just dependable. We have no physical specimens at WR like kyle had at ATL, but we have some guys who can catch. Remember, he is excellent coaching WRs also.

So there it is. With a FR QB, we are rolling. With a QB with good fundamentals, we need the top 5 D, the great Running game, the good receivers, and the great OC/HC who also can coach up qbs. No matter what happens, i think we are in a good spot to get to where we want to be...and to do so repetitively. Still, it would be easier and far better to have the FR QB. IF it doesn't happen tho, we still will be fine. Just not as fine.

We need to be in this for the Long Term PULL