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Originally posted by jcs:Originally posted by SFTifoso:I find it sad that most white america considers protests against racism, protests against America itself.
Stop protesting the American anthem and the American flag and you won't see so many people offended.
Originally posted by TheHYDE49er:the only people who see it this way is those who bought the Fox News and Trump headlines that it's anti-military, they spun it around and some fell for it. most military members recognize what they are doing is their 1st amendment right. if anything, military personnel should be pissed that there are people out there trying to stop freedom of speech and using the military as their puppet.
Originally posted by LeProfessionnel:Originally posted by TheWooLick:Originally posted by LeProfessionnel:Originally posted by TheWooLick:Originally posted by LeProfessionnel:Originally posted by TheWooLick:Originally posted by LeProfessionnel:Originally posted by TheWooLick:
Evidently you have the urge to argue with someone about "privilege theory" so you brought it up our if the blue and attributed it to me and demanded I defend it.
Respond to specific points in the post you quote if you want discussion.
I was responding to the quote below
Originally posted by TheWooLick:
I support community programs to curve violence in communities.
Tell me this, why do you think black males committed 53% of this nations homicides for 20+ years?
Conditions created by generations living with Jim Crow Laws, housing discrimination, discriminatory justice system...
Like I said, you advocate critical race theory. (Blaming white people for some black peoples behavior in the 21st century)
Now do you understand why I brought up CRT? Anticipating your response to my posts isn't hard.
Jim Crow laws didn't impact black people in LA, Chicago, Oakland, NY etc. Even so, crime rates were nowhere near as high as they are today back in the 1950's and into the early 1960's, even in the Jim Crow south (SOUTH) where people actually faced some sort of oppression each day.
No amount of mid 20th century Southern (systemic) racism forces a person to commit murder in the 21st century.
In fact, CA had similar laws impacting Asians yet we don't see Asian American communities generating warzone murder rates.
Here's where you move on to blaming slavery. At what point do we hold people accountable for their own actions? At what point do people like you realize cultural accountability is the only way this street level murder culture will be minimized? (Along with targeted spending on education/jobs) At what point do you realize what impact this culture has on policing in black neighborhoods?
How did this culture manifest? It began to take off after we replaced black fathers with welfare checks. As well meaning as welfare was at the time it did extraordinary damage to the black nuclear family.
Kids from single parent households are far more likely to commit crime. In 1960 22% of black kids lived in single parent households. Now it's 67%. 91% of these single parent households are single women.
Black kids from single parent households, as Obama said, are 20 times more likley to end up in prison compared to black kids from two parent households.
Jim Crow laws, as bad as they were, didn't destroy the black nuclear family. That was liberals (with good intentions). What will your good intentions cause in the 21st century? Well, right now your good intentions have this nation on the brink of chaos.
Tmi am not advocating critical race theory. You are subscribing me to a theory so that you can argue againstbthst theory. You are regurgitating the same argument you have made before and I have seen this argument made elsewhere.
I think Jim Crow laws, segregation, discrimination and dehumanization over generations are contributing factors to inner city violence. You don't which means we disagree.
You don't have to know what CRT is in order to advocate it's principles. Your answer to my question concerning homicide rates was directly in line with critical race theory.
I knew that would be the case because I've seen you pushing these excuses on this site for some time. I have also seen you advocate white privilege theory.
Your world view impacts everything you have to say on racial issues in America. Generally speaking you'll look for excuses rather than promote personal responsibility and cultural accountability.
At the end of the day you'll blame white people for all the problems black people face. Just admit it. Openly. Get to the point.
Now you just want to attack me personally and make up arguments I did not make.
Why not just argue with yourself? Have fun.
That wasn't the case at all and you know it. I didn't attack you personally I anticipated your response to my posts. Perfectly.
There's no point in discussing things with people perpetually seeking to blame exterior forces. It's like alcoholics in denial. Everything is everyone else's fault.
Don't you see how that will only perpetuate the same behavioral patterns? The same culture. This is one reason I say you do more harm than good. Too many on the left seek to shift blame which only perpetuates cultural decay.
Originally posted by SFTifoso:They never were. Taking a knee has always been a sign of respect; it is all around the world. They're simply choosing not to participate. Forcing people to be patriotic is nationalism.
Originally posted by Born9erFan:
Originally posted by TheHYDE49er:
the only people who see it this way is those who bought the Fox News and Trump headlines that it's anti-military, they spun it around and some fell for it. most military members recognize what they are doing is their 1st amendment right. if anything, military personnel should be pissed that there are people out there trying to stop freedom of speech and using the military as their puppet.
No one is trying to stop freedom of speech. We are trying to explain that the protest is offensive and has nothing to do with the content of the protest.
Do you really think that military personnel should be happy that one of the few things in this country that honors them is being pissed on so someone can get their point across about an unrelated subject?
Of course they back all manners of free speech or the sacrifices they and their fellow soldiers would have been in vain. It doesn't mean they aren't offended when the protest is disrespectful. Tell me, why is it necessary that this protest be done in a manner that symbolically disrespects them?
Originally posted by SaksV:Anyone that has a problem with the protest are the same people who are opposed to doing anything to change or help what the protest is about (the killing of unarmed innocent Black people).
Originally posted by BOI49er:
Originally posted by Jasta:
Originally posted by LeProfessionnel:
The amount of activism and media attention given to warzone murder culture pales in comparison to recent hysteria over "white supremact police brutality". As BLM calls it.
The latter is now shoved down everyone's throat just about everywhere at all times on TV, radio and online.
It's blame shifting. The two issues are directly linked. High rates of murder, armed robbery and gun violence are directly linked to higher rates of police contact. Violent or otherwise.
Even when people focus on warzone murder culture they end up blaming it on white racism. Everything seems to be about blame shifting. (White racism supposedly causes poverty in the 21st century and this poverty forces people to murder eachother. Right?)
It's paternalistic when white liberals such as yourself pull this line of reasoning. Very paternalistic. We should be focused on the nuclear family, education, American jobs for all and cultural change.
Ok. So how about some proper gun control then? How about making it much harder for young black men to get firearms? How about that? What about nuclear families? You just going to force people to stay together? Not have kids till they're ready? What about instead funding planned parenthood properly and de-stigmatizing abortions? How about actually tackling student loan debt if you think education is so important?
Or do you just want to point fingers at underprivileged people while you vote for the guy who wants to give the wealthiest people in the country a 2 trillion dollar tax break?
Conservatives love blaming people for not getting themselves out of a s**tty situation but never want to take their boot off their necks while they're doing it.
Ok, so how about proper gun control, like in Chicago, or D.C., or many other liberal run cities. They have the highest crime rates. Here's the facts. There are about 300,000 000 guns in the country, people have a constitutional right to them, gun control laws only take guns away from law abiding citizens as criminals by definition don't obey them, and in a free society, you can not control access to Anything, whether it be guns, drugs, people, or anything else. The black market will fill the demand. Statistics show that crime rates fall when criminals fear an armed victim, and all mass murders happen in gun free zones.
What about nuclear families? After WWII, 80 percent of black families had a male head of household. Now it's close to the opposite. Where are the Black leaders? Campaigning for more government assistance. The government is now the breadwinner in many poor families, and in some instances actually disincentivises financially having a man in the house. That results in no positive male roll model. I just saw a female NFL team doctor talk about how well she is accepted, because most of these players were raised by their mothers or grandmothers. Much of this is cultural.
Education? You are absolutely correct. There is no solution without it. Is doing well in school praised by young black men's peers, or are they ridiculed as uncle tom's, or worse. His father will help him stand up to that pressure. Oh wait... Student loan debt? It's a fact that government aid to education has caused the colleges and universities to raise their fees exponentially, because the kids can just get the additional money by borrowing it from the government. Even supporters like Joe Biden admit this. All the educators become very well paid. I do believe in the aid, but only to schools that are cost effective so as to give the schools a reason to be competitive.
Free abortions for poor people? If whites were driving that, you'd be making a pretty good case that that's genocide.
Conservatives want to blame people? Blaming people is what these demonstrations are all about.
Here's the bottom line. Blaming the white community and teaching young black men that they are victims of "white privelege" guarantees little progress will be made. I'm not saying injustices don't happen, and God help us, certainly did in the past. I'm saying dwelling on them is counter productive. Asians do very well because they value family and education. It's their culture. Everybody, of any race, will do their best with those values.
Originally posted by Born9erFan:Originally posted by SFTifoso:They never were. Taking a knee has always been a sign of respect; it is all around the world. They're simply choosing not to participate. Forcing people to be patriotic is nationalism.
Really, so why didn't the NFL players kneel during Great Britain's national anthem last Sunday. I mean if it's an international sign of respect then they apparently were disrespectful when they didn't kneel.
Of course they stood. because it would be DISRESPECTFUL if they didn't. Good lord!!
But I guess all of our players are just a bunch British Nationalists.
Originally posted by TheHYDE49er:this has nothing to do with the military and kneeling in front of flag has nothing to do with disrespecting them either. this would've been spun around as anti-america or anti-military, no matter which way it was a done. and it's sad having to debate this because the main point of this protest isn't being debated. we are still talking about about this crap...what a joke.
Originally posted by SFTifoso:Originally posted by Born9erFan:Originally posted by SFTifoso:They never were. Taking a knee has always been a sign of respect; it is all around the world. They're simply choosing not to participate. Forcing people to be patriotic is nationalism.
Really, so why didn't the NFL players kneel during Great Britain's national anthem last Sunday. I mean if it's an international sign of respect then they apparently were disrespectful when they didn't kneel.
Of course they stood. because it would be DISRESPECTFUL if they didn't. Good lord!!
But I guess all of our players are just a bunch British Nationalists.
The point of kneeling for the anthem/flag is that neither live up to the values they claim to represent, at least not for all its citizens. The players are not British, they have no clue how any racial divide in GB, which I suspect isn't as bad as this country. Why should they kneel for something they have no clue about?
Originally posted by Born9erFan:
I have read through a lot of this thread and the links provided (mostly by Wu-5). I obviously see more eye-to-eye with LeProf, and he definitely has more facts to back his (and my, if I ride his coat-tail's) arguments. I do not dismiss anything said by a fellow human and I am not easily offended. I react when people are easily offended and I, in return, provide scenarios (anecdotal or real) where I should be as, or more, offended as someone on the other side of the argument (i.e., the first divisive act was by Trump last week, as opposed to Kaep a year ago when he knelt during the anthem, wore socks depicting cops as pigs, and defended Fidel Castro in Cuban immigrant heavy Miami).
My point is, there are bad people out there in America whether it be blacks killing other blacks, whites killing other whites, rapist of any color, corrupt cops, corrupt politicians, white collar thieves, armed robbers, parents that abuse/molest their children, and on and on. So should we focus our energy on cops killing unarmed blacks? What I decided to do was look up some facts and found a website (the all so conservative Washington Post) that tracks police shootings and found that 48 unarmed people (all races) were KILLED by police shootings in 2016. Then I looked up lightning strikes, and found that per the NOAA that on average 550 people in the US are struck by lightning and 51 of them die per year. By the way, 17 of those unarmed shootings were black.
17!!! In all of the US last year! While tragic (assuming they were all innocent), it is a statistically irrelevant (not their lives but the number of incidents, don't want my leftist brethren getting too emotional). It is like saying you are more likely to be struck by lightning than...(fill in the blank). I'm pretty sure lighting is not systemically racist (and yes, I know we do not have stats on whether a larger percentage of the black population is killed by the racist lightning than the white). Hell, roughly 4,000 people (78 times the number KILLED by cops) die by drowning each year, and blacks die at a rate 5 times that of whites (again, from the all so conservative USA Today), does that mean pools are racist or could it be a 'cultural' thing per se?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings-2016/
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/05/15/in-pools-young-blacks-drown-at-far-higher-rates/9146213/
Wu-5 gonna call you an ignorant racist
Originally posted by SFTifoso:That's your interpretation. Want to know why other people are mad then understand that this topic about patriotism and how it is connected to the flag and the national anthem are both deeply personal and vary in opinion to a majority of Americans.
Originally posted by jcs:
Originally posted by SFTifoso:
I find it sad that most white america considers protests against racism, protests against America itself.
Stop protesting the American anthem and the American flag and you won't see so many people offended.
They never were. Taking a knee has always been a sign of respect; it is all around the world. They're simply choosing not to participate. Forcing people to be patriotic is nationalism.
Originally posted by Born9erFan:
Originally posted by TheHYDE49er:
this has nothing to do with the military and kneeling in front of flag has nothing to do with disrespecting them either. this would've been spun around as anti-america or anti-military, no matter which way it was a done. and it's sad having to debate this because the main point of this protest isn't being debated. we are still talking about about this crap...what a joke.
I understand what you are saying, but blame that on Kaep. We know that the intent was never meant to be disrespectful to the flag or military. Unfortunately, he chose a method that IS disrespectful to the flag and military. He doesn't get to choose what offends people, you would have to be a tyrannical dictator (or God) to have that kind of power over someone.
Like I said earlier, you can't burn a cross in America to protest Catholic Church abuses without being offensive. Because the act itself is offensive and symbolizes racism. And it has nothing to do with what is being protested, which would derail all conversations and the reason for protesting would rarely ever be discussed.
I'm not trying to be obtuse or a dick. I'm trying to explain why these protest have pissed off a lot of people, while at the same time the reason for the protest is rarely discussed. Why can't the protesters see that?
This...Originally posted by jcs:That's your interpretation. Want to know why other people are mad then understand that this topic about patriotism and how it is connected to the flag and the national anthem are both deeply personal and vary in opinion to a majority of Americans.Originally posted by SFTifoso:Originally posted by jcs:Originally posted by SFTifoso:I find it sad that most white america considers protests against racism, protests against America itself.
Stop protesting the American anthem and the American flag and you won't see so many people offended.
They never were. Taking a knee has always been a sign of respect; it is all around the world. They're simply choosing not to participate. Forcing people to be patriotic is nationalism.
Problem with this protest from the beginning is that it had such a vague message and delivery. Define it, depoliticize it and stop using the flag to make your point and you may stop ticking people off.