Jimmy Garoppolo, QB, Los Angeles Rams

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
Let's try this another way Goatie. Maybe you will get it this time.

You say Kyle calls the plays and Jimmy executes as designed. Lets say I agree completely.

My question to you is, do you think Kyle's system ignores certain areas of the field, or do you think he simply doesnt use his plays that dial up long throws down the sideline very much?

I believe it's the latter. He has plays to attack those areas, but he doesnt use them often.

The question is why?

This is where the disagreement starts.

Kyle designs and calls passing plays to where he has the tools to make them work.

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

So you just brought up what I was asking Goatie. Saying scheme is the reason we dont throw out there I dont buy. Kyle's system has never all but ignored areas of the field. His system attacks everything.

I think personnel is a bit overstated, but we dont have a true 4.3 type burner. This team does have speed. More than you would expect, if one was to look at the lack of downfield passes.

I know this isnt a vertical offense, but this is much less vertical than other Kyle led offenses.

Kyles scheme is based around the personnel he has. His best receiver is a TE. He's a massive mismatch and he exploited that. Who do they have with real good speed? Goodwin couldn't stay on the field and can't hold onto a football. You're not getting onto the field if you can't block as a WR, which is part of the reason James & Pettis were ghosts on offense.

Deeper pass attempts require deeper drops, play-action helps, but that OL has to hold that pocket longer for the play to develop downfield. Would you say this OL is built for drawn out pass plays OR run-blocking? Would you say this personnel is built for quick pass attempts and getting YAC? So yes personnel plays a part in play calls.

I'm all for kyle adding more deep pass play concepts. The personnel needs to be changed around a bit imo. They need an actual deep threat and they need better pass-pro at the IOL.

This offense had the most explosive plays in the NFL this yr. they were 2nd in PTs. They went 13-3 without having to chuck it downfield a million times. That's a positive not a negative because deep passes aren't high percentage plays. No one wants to count on those plays as the reason you win games.

FWIW I'd bet money kyle would throw the ball more downfield if Tyreek Hill was on our team.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

So you just brought up what I was asking Goatie. Saying scheme is the reason we dont throw out there I dont buy. Kyle's system has never all but ignored areas of the field. His system attacks everything.

I think personnel is a bit overstated, but we dont have a true 4.3 type burner. This team does have speed. More than you would expect, if one was to look at the lack of downfield passes.

I know this isnt a vertical offense, but this is much less vertical than other Kyle led offenses.

Kyles scheme is based around the personnel he has. His best receiver is a TE. He's a massive mismatch and he exploited that. Who do they have with real good speed? Goodwin couldn't stay on the field and can't hold onto a football. You're not getting onto the field if you can't block as a WR, which is part of the reason James & Pettis were ghosts on offense.

Deeper pass attempts require deeper drops, play-action helps, but that OL has to hold that pocket longer for the play to develop downfield. Would you say this OL is built for drawn out pass plays OR run-blocking? Would you say this personnel is built for quick pass attempts and getting YAC? So yes personnel plays a part in play calls.

I'm all for kyle adding more deep pass play concepts. The personnel needs to be changed around a bit imo. They need an actual deep threat and they need better pass-pro at the IOL.

This offense had the most explosive plays in the NFL this yr. they were 2nd in PTs. They went 13-3 without having to chuck it downfield a million times. That's a positive not a negative because deep passes aren't high percentage plays. No one wants to count on those plays as the reason you win games.

FWIW I'd bet money kyle would throw the ball more downfield if Tyreek Hill was on our team.

I'll just add in one more thing. Yes kyle is looking for another kittle or, realistically, another top flite TE. But in one game where kittle was out, Dwelley stepped up and blocked like a crazy man, caught passes and included one that was a 3rd and 7 which was completed for 5 yrds and then Dwelley fought (just like Kittle does) for that remaining 2 yds and a first down. If he had #85 on his jersey you would have thot it was Kittle. But it was Dwelley just fighting for that final 2 yds after making a very good catch to start the play off.

So, (and i hope i am not making too large a leap here), yes kyle is looking for his #1 WR, but he may have his 2nd best receiver on the team already. Just needed some seasoning and he got that this yr. Bourne, Sanders and Deebo are a fine set of WRs. Probably not a true #1 but 3 guys who are all #2 As. Here again, we may have a bona fide #1 on the team already. And that would be Hurd. We didn't see one play with Hurd this yr, but if he is healthy and ready to go in '20, we could have a #1 already on the team. Or , we could have another #2A, giving us four. Whatever, whether kyle scores another Deebo or not, we have a definite candidate in Hurd. Go look at his films on Utube. If he is healthy, this could be one helluva set of receivers . Oh, yes...Hurd is a big guy, but has some 40s clocked in the 4.4 range. Now THAT would be one interesting dude at WR.

Like Dwelley, Hurd would qualify as another of kyle's WR/TE/RB. We may be a whole lot better off this yr than a lot of folks think when it comes to guys who can catch the ball. I think Hurd could qualify as a deep ball guy in addition to his other talents.

There is one thing that will really help JimmyG with his WRs. Bourne was already here so JG had great chemistry with him, but Sanders we traded for, and Deebo we drafted . Getting early and often passes to all his receivers this yr, will help the chemistry between qB and WRs. We should expect a drastically improved set of "ball catchers" out there this yr. Bring it on.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
So you just brought up what I was asking Goatie. Saying scheme is the reason we dont throw out there I dont buy. Kyle's system has never all but ignored areas of the field. His system attacks everything.

I think personnel is a bit overstated, but we dont have a true 4.3 type burner. This team does have speed. More than you would expect, if one was to look at the lack of downfield passes.

I know this isnt a vertical offense, but this is much less vertical than other Kyle led offenses.

Kyles scheme is based around the personnel he has. His best receiver is a TE. He's a massive mismatch and he exploited that. Who do they have with real good speed? Goodwin couldn't stay on the field and can't hold onto a football. You're not getting onto the field if you can't block as a WR, which is part of the reason James & Pettis were ghosts on offense.

Deeper pass attempts require deeper drops, play-action helps, but that OL has to hold that pocket longer for the play to develop downfield. Would you say this OL is built for drawn out pass plays OR run-blocking? Would you say this personnel is built for quick pass attempts and getting YAC? So yes personnel plays a part in play calls.

I'm all for kyle adding more deep pass play concepts. The personnel needs to be changed around a bit imo. They need an actual deep threat and they need better pass-pro at the IOL.

This offense had the most explosive plays in the NFL this yr. they were 2nd in PTs. They went 13-3 without having to chuck it downfield a million times. That's a positive not a negative because deep passes aren't high percentage plays. No one wants to count on those plays as the reason you win games.

FWIW I'd bet money kyle would throw the ball more downfield if Tyreek Hill was on our team.

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
So you just brought up what I was asking Goatie. Saying scheme is the reason we dont throw out there I dont buy. Kyle's system has never all but ignored areas of the field. His system attacks everything.

I think personnel is a bit overstated, but we dont have a true 4.3 type burner. This team does have speed. More than you would expect, if one was to look at the lack of downfield passes.

I know this isnt a vertical offense, but this is much less vertical than other Kyle led offenses.

Kyles scheme is based around the personnel he has. His best receiver is a TE. He's a massive mismatch and he exploited that. Who do they have with real good speed? Goodwin couldn't stay on the field and can't hold onto a football. You're not getting onto the field if you can't block as a WR, which is part of the reason James & Pettis were ghosts on offense.

Deeper pass attempts require deeper drops, play-action helps, but that OL has to hold that pocket longer for the play to develop downfield. Would you say this OL is built for drawn out pass plays OR run-blocking? Would you say this personnel is built for quick pass attempts and getting YAC? So yes personnel plays a part in play calls.

I'm all for kyle adding more deep pass play concepts. The personnel needs to be changed around a bit imo. They need an actual deep threat and they need better pass-pro at the IOL.

This offense had the most explosive plays in the NFL this yr. they were 2nd in PTs. They went 13-3 without having to chuck it downfield a million times. That's a positive not a negative because deep passes aren't high percentage plays. No one wants to count on those plays as the reason you win games.

FWIW I'd bet money kyle would throw the ball more downfield if Tyreek Hill was on our team.

I'll just add in one more thing. Yes kyle is looking for another kittle or, realistically, another top flite TE. But in one game where kittle was out, Dwelley stepped up and blocked like a crazy man, caught passes and included one that was a 3rd and 7 which was completed for 5 yrds and then Dwelley fought (just like Kittle does) for that remaining 2 yds and a first down. If he had #85 on his jersey you would have thot it was Kittle. But it was Dwelley just fighting for that final 2 yds after making a very good catch to start the play off.

So, (and i hope i am not making too large a leap here), yes kyle is looking for his #1 WR, but he may have his 2nd best receiver on the team already. Just needed some seasoning and he got that this yr. Bourne, Sanders and Deebo are a fine set of WRs. Probably not a true #1 but 3 guys who are all #2 As. Here again, we may have a bona fide #1 on the team already. And that would be Hurd. We didn't see one play with Hurd this yr, but if he is healthy and ready to go in '20, we could have a #1 already on the team. Or , we could have another #2A, giving us four. Whatever, whether kyle scores another Deebo or not, we have a definite candidate in Hurd. Go look at his films on Utube. If he is healthy, this could be one helluva set of receivers . Oh, yes...Hurd is a big guy, but has some 40s clocked in the 4.4 range. Now THAT would be one interesting dude at WR.

Like Dwelley, Hurd would qualify as another of kyle's WR/TE/RB. We may be a whole lot better off this yr than a lot of folks think when it comes to guys who can catch the ball. I think Hurd could qualify as a deep ball guy in addition to his other talents.

Hurd was very impressive in the limited time we saw him in the pre-season. I hope his back is now healthy as I am looking forward to see how much of a weapon he will be for Jimmy. I am very optimistic about his potential. Thanks for raising this.

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:

I'll just add in one more thing. Yes kyle is looking for another kittle or, realistically, another top flite TE. But in one game where kittle was out, Dwelley stepped up and blocked like a crazy man, caught passes and included one that was a 3rd and 7 which was completed for 5 yrds and then Dwelley fought (just like Kittle does) for that remaining 2 yds and a first down. If he had #85 on his jersey you would have thot it was Kittle. But it was Dwelley just fighting for that final 2 yds after making a very good catch to start the play off.

So, (and i hope i am not making too large a leap here), yes kyle is looking for his #1 WR, but he may have his 2nd best receiver on the team already. Just needed some seasoning and he got that this yr. Bourne, Sanders and Deebo are a fine set of WRs. Probably not a true #1 but 3 guys who are all #2 As. Here again, we may have a bona fide #1 on the team already. And that would be Hurd. We didn't see one play with Hurd this yr, but if he is healthy and ready to go in '20, we could have a #1 already on the team. Or , we could have another #2A, giving us four. Whatever, whether kyle scores another Deebo or not, we have a definite candidate in Hurd. Go look at his films on Utube. If he is healthy, this could be one helluva set of receivers . Oh, yes...Hurd is a big guy, but has some 40s clocked in the 4.4 range. Now THAT would be one interesting dude at WR.

Like Dwelley, Hurd would qualify as another of kyle's WR/TE/RB. We may be a whole lot better off this yr than a lot of folks think when it comes to guys who can catch the ball. I think Hurd could qualify as a deep ball guy in addition to his other talents.

There is one thing that will really help JimmyG with his WRs. Bourne was already here so JG had great chemistry with him, but Sanders we traded for, and Deebo we drafted . Getting early and often passes to all his receivers this yr, will help the chemistry between qB and WRs. We should expect a drastically improved set of "ball catchers" out there this yr. Bring it on.

Honestly I think kyle needs a deep speed WR. Not sure another top end TE is a must, would be cool. Kinda a luxury imo.

There's gotta be speed element to the WR Corp. kyle has had that pretty much everywhere he's been.

While I'm not sure kyle tries to improve pass-pro in the interior OL, id like to think that it would be a great next step to building a better passing game, which would include deeper passing concepts. Jimmy isn't wilson/murray would can scramble around to extend plays.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
I'll just add in one more thing. Yes kyle is looking for another kittle or, realistically, another top flite TE. But in one game where kittle was out, Dwelley stepped up and blocked like a crazy man, caught passes and included one that was a 3rd and 7 which was completed for 5 yrds and then Dwelley fought (just like Kittle does) for that remaining 2 yds and a first down. If he had #85 on his jersey you would have thot it was Kittle. But it was Dwelley just fighting for that final 2 yds after making a very good catch to start the play off.

So, (and i hope i am not making too large a leap here), yes kyle is looking for his #1 WR, but he may have his 2nd best receiver on the team already. Just needed some seasoning and he got that this yr. Bourne, Sanders and Deebo are a fine set of WRs. Probably not a true #1 but 3 guys who are all #2 As. Here again, we may have a bona fide #1 on the team already. And that would be Hurd. We didn't see one play with Hurd this yr, but if he is healthy and ready to go in '20, we could have a #1 already on the team. Or , we could have another #2A, giving us four. Whatever, whether kyle scores another Deebo or not, we have a definite candidate in Hurd. Go look at his films on Utube. If he is healthy, this could be one helluva set of receivers . Oh, yes...Hurd is a big guy, but has some 40s clocked in the 4.4 range. Now THAT would be one interesting dude at WR.

Like Dwelley, Hurd would qualify as another of kyle's WR/TE/RB. We may be a whole lot better off this yr than a lot of folks think when it comes to guys who can catch the ball. I think Hurd could qualify as a deep ball guy in addition to his other talents.

There is one thing that will really help JimmyG with his WRs. Bourne was already here so JG had great chemistry with him, but Sanders we traded for, and Deebo we drafted . Getting early and often passes to all his receivers this yr, will help the chemistry between qB and WRs. We should expect a drastically improved set of "ball catchers" out there this yr. Bring it on.

Honestly I think kyle needs a deep speed WR. Not sure another top end TE is a must, would be cool. Kinda a luxury imo.

There's gotta be speed element to the WR Corp. kyle has had that pretty much everywhere he's been.

While I'm not sure kyle tries to improve pass-pro in the interior OL, id like to think that it would be a great next step to building a better passing game, which would include deeper passing concepts. Jimmy isn't wilson/murray would can scramble around to extend plays.

It will be an interesting pre season competition in our running back corp. I think there will be a good competition between Deebo, Bourne, Sanders, Goodwin, Hurd, Taylor, Pettis. I think they will keep 5 for the roster. Goodwin may get his hands back and certainly has the speed but that will start to decline in the coming years as he is now around 30. He will also be expensive given we are looking for cap space. Sanders has been good for us and should have better form since his rib injury will have healed by the pre-season. His main downside is his cost give our cap space issues. Taylor is suspect given his foot issue and whether they have healed. If fully healed I believe he has a great shot at making the roster. Not so optimistic about Pettis. I am pretty sure he will be gone. Hurd will be great if health as he is versatile and cheap.

I also am optimistic about Jimmy being able to scramble around more after another off season of rehab and strengthening his knee. It was clear when his knee was giving him trouble that he wasn't moving around so much. This was obvious in the play offs particularly after the GB game when he copped a big hit on it. Even with the two week break between then and the SB he was not moving as well as he was as say in the Saints game.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Honestly I think kyle needs a deep speed WR. Not sure another top end TE is a must, would be cool. Kinda a luxury imo.

There's gotta be speed element to the WR Corp. kyle has had that pretty much everywhere he's been.

While I'm not sure kyle tries to improve pass-pro in the interior OL, id like to think that it would be a great next step to building a better passing game, which would include deeper passing concepts. Jimmy isn't wilson/murray would can scramble around to extend plays.

Oh, we be on the same team here, amigo. I never mentioned deep threat (ie speed WR), and no question we need to fix that ASAP. Just not easy. The number of Tyrek Hill's out there is few. Honestly, i'd Be willing to let GM and HC figure it out, especially once we get into rd 5.. i mean, kittle? Iowa? Heck that is a huge BiG 10 (oops it's 12 now) school, and nobody can say they overlooked Iowa. Yet, that is exactly what 32 teams did 4 X, and a few more missed him again in rd 5. I mean a talent like that...how do 32 teams miss 4X on PFF player of the yr after being an all pro as a rookie?

So without saying much more, let kyle and john figure it out. Between kittle and DJ, not to mention a handful of others, these guys see around corners or into buildings. How else do they draft a guy in 5th round who in his rookie yr puts up stats never before seen from a TE? Just to think about it is spine chilling. So , for me, let our head guys at it, let them figure this out. I have been wrong on so many things these guys have done or decisions made, that i can't remember them all. But no question, speed + good hands at WR is a must for us...no matter whether by trade, FA, or draft.

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Honestly I think kyle needs a deep speed WR. Not sure another top end TE is a must, would be cool. Kinda a luxury imo.

There's gotta be speed element to the WR Corp. kyle has had that pretty much everywhere he's been.

While I'm not sure kyle tries to improve pass-pro in the interior OL, id like to think that it would be a great next step to building a better passing game, which would include deeper passing concepts. Jimmy isn't wilson/murray would can scramble around to extend plays.

Oh, we be on the same team here, amigo. I never mentioned deep threat (ie speed WR), and no question we need to fix that ASAP. Just not easy. The number of Tyrek Hill's out there is few. Honestly, i'd Be willing to let GM and HC figure it out, especially once we get into rd 5.. i mean, kittle? Iowa? Heck that is a huge BiG 10 (oops it's 12 now) school, and nobody can say they overlooked Iowa. Yet, that is exactly what 32 teams did 4 X, and a few more missed him again in rd 5. I mean a talent like that...how do 32 teams miss 4X on PFF player of the yr after being an all pro as a rookie?

So without saying much more, let kyle and john figure it out. Between kittle and DJ, not to mention a handful of others, these guys see around corners or into buildings. How else do they draft a guy in 5th round who in his rookie yr puts up stats never before seen from a TE? Just to think about it is spine chilling. So , for me, let our head guys at it, let them figure this out. I have been wrong on so many things these guys have done or decisions made, that i can't remember them all. But no question, speed + good hands at WR is a must for us...no matter whether by trade, FA, or draft.

Originally posted by NYniner85:
While I'm not sure kyle tries to improve pass-pro in the interior OL, id like to think that it would be a great next step to building a better passing game, which would include deeper passing concepts. Jimmy isn't wilson/murray would can scramble around to extend plays.

There'd be great value in this if this could be fixed (Tomlinson sucks too though). I was listening to the BR podcast and of course, they had a PFF stat nerd on for predictive modeling and basically, comparing all QB's under the "has time to throw" metric, JG was showing elite passer ability/production. We all know where that pressure is coming from by now. Fix that and with players returning from injury and JG in year two of the WCO and an actual off season to practice vs. rehabbing, he could be in prime position to have a much bigger year. And no, not every QB has elite abilities even when they have time to throw. So that's encouraging.

Got dang peeps are still calling him "un-clutch" for those last six minutes. He's been clutch all year. He was pretty much clutch in that game up to that point. Then he absorbed a huge helmet to helmet and wasn't the same since. So yes, going back to the posts above -- a better pass protecting o-line could have helped. Grant Cohn confirmed something for me that I never bothered to bring up but that b***h Person could have put some hands on Jones to prevent him from interfering with Jimmy's passing lanes with his outstretched arms. He just sat there like an idiot and let Jones do what he wanted untouched.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

While I'm not sure kyle tries to improve pass-pro in the interior OL, id like to think that it would be a great next step to building a better passing game, which would include deeper passing concepts. Jimmy isn't wilson/murray would can scramble around to extend plays.

There'd be great value in this if this could be fixed (Tomlinson sucks too though). I was listening to the BR podcast and of course, they had a PFF stat nerd on for predictive modeling and basically, comparing all QB's under the "has time to throw" metric, JG was showing elite passer ability/production. We all know where that pressure is coming from by now. Fix that and with players returning from injury and JG in year two of the WCO and an actual off season to practice vs. rehabbing, he could be in prime position to have a much bigger year. And no, not every QB has elite abilities even when they have time to throw. So that's encouraging.

I disagree that Tomlinson sucks. He's been a solid LG and never misses games. He's the 20th overall guard in PFF. Can't hate on that, he'd be starting on like 20 other teams.

Person needs to be upgraded for sure

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

While I'm not sure kyle tries to improve pass-pro in the interior OL, id like to think that it would be a great next step to building a better passing game, which would include deeper passing concepts. Jimmy isn't wilson/murray would can scramble around to extend plays.

There'd be great value in this if this could be fixed (Tomlinson sucks too though). I was listening to the BR podcast and of course, they had a PFF stat nerd on for predictive modeling and basically, comparing all QB's under the "has time to throw" metric, JG was showing elite passer ability/production. We all know where that pressure is coming from by now. Fix that and with players returning from injury and JG in year two of the WCO and an actual off season to practice vs. rehabbing, he could be in prime position to have a much bigger year. And no, not every QB has elite abilities even when they have time to throw. So that's encouraging.

" Originally posted by NYniner85:
While I'm not sure kyle tries to improve pass-pro in the interior OL, id like to think that it would be a great next step to building a better passing game, which would include deeper passing concepts."


Hmmmm
Don't Improve interior OL for pass protection, but improve deeper developing routes....

Lol come on NY, I understand you can do that with some scheme, however, expecting one without the other is unrealistic.

Originally posted by Jeepzilla:

" Originally posted by NYniner85:
While I'm not sure kyle tries to improve pass-pro in the interior OL, id like to think that it would be a great next step to building a better passing game, which would include deeper passing concepts."


Hmmmm
Don't Improve interior OL for pass protection, but improve deeper developing routes....

Lol come on NY, I understand you can do that with some scheme, however, expecting one without the other is unrealistic.

I'm not saying that's what I'd do, I'm saying that seems to be Kyle's approach so far. Do you not agree? He doesn't value guards. Never has. Hopefully that changes

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by Jeepzilla:

" Originally posted by NYniner85:
While I'm not sure kyle tries to improve pass-pro in the interior OL, id like to think that it would be a great next step to building a better passing game, which would include deeper passing concepts."


Hmmmm
Don't Improve interior OL for pass protection, but improve deeper developing routes....

Lol come on NY, I understand you can do that with some scheme, however, expecting one without the other is unrealistic.

I'm not saying that's what I'd do, I'm saying that seems to be Kyle's approach so far. Do you not agree? He doesn't value guards. Never has. Hopefully that changes

I agree.

Sone of your main points that so many overlook is that we were #1 in explosive plays (even though this offense is not vertical based), brought in Sanders mid season, # what in scoring again, #2?, jimmy coming off an ACL, no consistency in the wide receivers, losing both OT's for many games, losing our damn center.... I can go on...
Yet, jimmy sucks, Jimmy's the weak link, jimmy won't improve...
Yet jimmy was top 5-8 in most stats (even though stats don't matter, except when they do).
The clown takes in here make me think I'm at the circus.
Ridiculous

Originally posted by Jeepzilla:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by Jeepzilla:
" Originally posted by NYniner85:
While I'm not sure kyle tries to improve pass-pro in the interior OL, id like to think that it would be a great next step to building a better passing game, which would include deeper passing concepts."

Hmmmm
Don't Improve interior OL for pass protection, but improve deeper developing routes....

Lol come on NY, I understand you can do that with some scheme, however, expecting one without the other is unrealistic.

I'm not saying that's what I'd do, I'm saying that seems to be Kyle's approach so far. Do you not agree? He doesn't value guards. Never has. Hopefully that changes

I agree.

Sone of your main points that so many overlook is that we were #1 in explosive plays (even though this offense is not vertical based), brought in Sanders mid season, # what in scoring again, #2?, jimmy coming off an ACL, no consistency in the wide receivers, losing both OT's for many games, losing our damn center.... I can go on...
Yet, jimmy sucks, Jimmy's the weak link, jimmy won't improve...
Yet jimmy was top 5-8 in most stats (even though stats don't matter, except when they do).
The clown takes in here make me think I'm at the circus.
Ridiculous

You have to wonder what some people are smoking