Jimmy Garoppolo, QB, Los Angeles Rams

Originally posted by NinerPrideinNJ:
I understand that but the HC/OC still is an overseer of this. Look at what Harbaugh did to help transform Alex Smith from a bum to a very competent QB. I'm not saying Harbaugh is better, just using it as an example.

Maybe it's more of a QB coaching issue then. I'm just saying it feels weird that Garoppolo looked his best when he was his rawest and first joined. He's never looked as sharp or confident since. The injury certainly is a prime culprit as well. Just hard to delineate where his lack of assurance/tentativeness is due to fear of getting hurt/hit or of having too many things to think about in terms of the play execution.

What exactly did Harbs do? He ran the ball a s**t ton and ask Alex to be a good game manager. He called plays to his strength. That's no different than what Kyle has done IMO...Alex was surrounded by horrible play-callers and hurt a s**t ton. That stuff matters.

I mean if Harbs was a QB whisper, what the heck is happening in Michigan Dude has elite recruits and a bunch of dog s**t playing QB. ( I know you're not saying he's better just pointing out what is currently happening).

Kyle is the HC he has like 90 players and a dozen or more coaches he over sees...overall it's not his job to work on a players mechanics. That's on the player...I can't remember which DL player it was, but he said they work on pass rush moves during the offseason at summits & hire position gurus. The coaches during TC and OTAs don't have time to work on every players technique, you gotta come to camp ready to roll.

As far as 2017 Jimmy, I think it was literally just the fact that he played well for a couple games. That's it. Tons of QBs ball out for a hot min only to get figured out with more film. It's not like Kyle is making things overly difficult for him. Yes there's a lot of personnel packages, route combinations, motions etc. From a passing stand point he's not asking Jimmy to slice up secondaries week in and week out. For the most part he's been put in a pretty favorable positions most of his time here.

At some point people might just have to realize he is who he is...good not amazing QB. It's not the end of the world so long as the roster around him is top end.

Originally posted by Sickaa:

Originally posted by NinerPrideinNJ:

I understand that but the HC/OC still is an overseer of this. Look at what Harbaugh did to help transform Alex Smith from a bum to a very competent QB. I'm not saying Harbaugh is better, just using it as an example.

Maybe it's more of a QB coaching issue then. I'm just saying it feels weird that Garoppolo looked his best when he was his rawest and first joined. He's never looked as sharp or confident since. The injury certainly is a prime culprit as well. Just hard to delineate where his lack of assurance/tentativeness is due to fear of getting hurt/hit or of having too many things to think about in terms of the play execution.

That was a 5 game span in which the league has now Figured Jimmy out. Take away the short and Intermediate routes and Jimmy struggles.

Lol so take away 75% of the field and a QB struggles? I'd believe this to be the case with any QB unless they are throwing bombs every play lol. Offenses require multiple prongs to be effective. Running game opens up passing big time, but even when teams drop players for all pass cover thats when the quick slants and screens come into play. It's a game of adjustments, some teams do it better then others. Unfortunately for the niners our offense is heavily predicted on the run to be very successful. Losing Mostert, coleman, and Wilson was a big deal.

Originally posted by TheWooLick:
What about 2019? JG had a good year.
5th in TDs, 8th in passer rating, 3rd in yards per attempt...

-Near the bottom of the league football ALEX score
-2nd worst in the league in air yards to the sticks
-worst in the league in avg air yard differential
-3rd worst in avg intended air yards

and with all that he was 8th worst in INT% which means he threw the ball shorter than just about any QB in the league and yet threw INTs at one of the highest %

Originally posted by wolfpack2192:
Lol so take away 75% of the field and a QB struggles? I'd believe this to be the case with any QB unless they are throwing bombs every play lol. Offenses require multiple prongs to be effective. Running game opens up passing big time, but even when teams drop players for all pass cover thats when the quick slants and screens come into play. It's a game of adjustments, some teams do it better then others. Unfortunately for the niners our offense is heavily predicted on the run to be very successful. Losing Mostert, coleman, and Wilson was a big deal.

Maybe if we had better overall QB play our team wouldn't have to rely on the run game as much

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by TheWooLick:

What about 2019? JG had a good year.
5th in TDs, 8th in passer rating, 3rd in yards per attempt...

-Near the bottom of the league football ALEX score
-2nd worst in the league in air yards to the sticks
-worst in the league in avg air yard differential
-3rd worst in avg intended air yards

and with all that he was 8th worst in INT% which means he threw the ball shorter than just about any QB in the league and yet threw INTs at one of the highest %

LOL at ALEX scores and other meaningless stats that do not translate to winning.

Forget a out TDs, wins and yards. Lets talk about "expected" yards.

Originally posted by TheWooLick:
LOL at ALEX scores and other meaningless stats that do not translate to winning.

Forget a out TDs, wins and yards. Lets talk about "expected" yards.

Yes because paying our QB $27M per yr to throw the ball shorter than just about every QB in the league AND still be top 10 in INT% is totally the way to go LOL.

Just because you don't understand how the analytics translate to what he's actually asked to do or how a player performs doesn't mean it's meaningless. It's more data.

Why does Jimmy get all the credit for throwing a 2 yard screen or forward shovel pass while Deebo/Kittle have to break a bunch of tackles and get a s**t ton of YAC? That's a "yards stat" that he didn't really earn.

I hear every excuse under the sun when Jimmy loses a game, yet when we win that W goes to him for some reason

winning is a team stat. Not a QB stat.

Originally posted by Izyniner:

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by genus49:
Why would I forget Goff unless your goal is to lose a SB? We did that last year and you're looking to replace Jimmy.

Wentz wasn't the starting QB and Foles while cheap wasn't on his rookie deal. Are you going to say the way to win SBs is to find a cheap backup and rely on him in the playoffs?

It's a stretch man. Your ultimate point is to find a stud QB and hope your team is good enough when he's on his rookie deal because that gives you the best window to win multiple but out of all the guys who were on their rookie deals only 1 got back to the SB and none have won it more than once though of course Mahomes is likely on his way to doing it unless something breaks down but he's arguably the best QB in the game right now and has the contract extension of half a billion to show for it.

There have been multiple teams who have invested in QB early who had pretty good teams and they didn't get to the SB or won it. Flacco was the only one who wasn't an elite QB and it was in his 5th year that he went on that crazy tear in the playoffs.

You "simply" need a great QB and a good team around him. These guys can't win on their own and your team has to be pretty much perfect in all other aspects if your QB isn't better than average.

Garoppolo is better than average when healthy but he's certainly nowhere near Mahomes/Wilson levels. That's why I don't mind the idea of adding a guy who MAY be...but I am hesitant to just send Jimmy away without confirming the guy we get is the real deal.

Just thinking about some of these really good teams adding young QBs early

Denver - Paxton Lynch at one point dude was considered the top QB in that class. Denver adds him to a roster that just won the SB with the Corpse of Peyton Manning. Never sniff a SB. He's out of the league in 2 years.

Ravens - Lamar Jackson - this one is still pending and he looked unreal last season but they're falling off big time this year.

Houston - traded up for Deshaun Watson - made the playoffs but fell apart, granted due to some trash GMing

KC - obviously THE decision but once again we're talking about guy considered the best QB in the game so unless your point is "find the best QB in the game in the draft" then why even bring it up?

Can't find too many other examples outside of going back to Aaron Rodgers to the Packers and he didn't win the SB until he was on his 2nd contract with them.

So in summation obviously adding a great QB talent to your team, especially with talent already on the roster is likely to get you great results. But it's not always work out that way as the Paxton Lynch example clearly shows.

Lynch had all the things people are looking to replace Jimmy with - size, athletic ability, big arm, can make all the throws, mobile, great deep ball, throws well on the run.

How'd that work out for Denver?

OMG Genus why are you trying so stubborn about this one?

Yes let's twist everything I said because you don't like it. This is a bad debate on your part dude.

Foles wasn't being paid top money, yet you don't want to bring that up. Wentz most certainly played that yr (first 13 weeks).

Dude P Lynch seriously? Everyone said he wasn't close to a NFL QB coming out of Memphis. Couldn't read a defense worth a s**t. Elway been s**tty at evaluating QBs. He couldn't even take a snap from under center. Now you're just cherry picking

I'm talking about a team being good! Making it to the playoffs...anything after that is gravy. The best QB/teams don't always end up in the SB (let alone win it all) you know this. Health, luck and just getting hot at the right time are big factors in winning it all.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/nfl-quarterback-contracts-qb-with-biggest-salary-cap-hit-has-had-zero-nfl-playoff-success-over-past-decade/

Go look at it currently man...Murray, Allen, jackson, mayfield etc are looking like some more QBs on rookie contracts that are heading towards the playoffs too.

Look if you're gonna pay the QB a f**k ton of money he better be damn good! Because there's only so much cash to go around...you think Jimmy is some amazing QB, I think he's a serviceable starter who's being paid too much cash when we need that cash to maintain the overall roster/upgrade.

I have faith in our coaching staff/scouts to find a good young QB....in a ideal world Jimmy would be that bridge QB. Pre-Covid that was probably a realistic scenario.

Too each their own man.

lol not being stubborn you brought up the whole rookie contract thing like it was the secret sauce to SB wins.

I just pointed out that's not the case or you'd see a lot more young QBs winning SBs.

Out of the last 10 years only 3 guys fit the bill of what you describe and two of them are arguably the two best QBs playing the game right now. So was it their small contract that was the formula or was it their ability? Mahomes it was certainly his ability. Wilson is a toss up. The SB they won his defense outscored Denver but if I recall correctly it was also before their key guys got paid big time.

I understand your point. If we can find a young QB who is better than Jimmy it would be terrific. We know we have some heavy hitters who will need to get paid and we have guys we have to retain or wait out some of these bad contracts while trying to stay afloat. A good QB on a rookie deal would certainly do that.

But my point the whole time has been be careful what you wish for. No guarantee the young guy ends up being better than Jimmy. I understand you want to get rid of Jimmy's contract because you think he's not playing up to it but going to an unknown doesn't always guarantee the success KC or Seattle saw.

We'll just have to wait and see what happens and hope whatever move the 49ers make will not haunt us.

The Chargers say hi! Great defense really good to great offensive weapons and a hot shot rookie QB. Oh and they can't win a game to save their lives.

Not a bad example though they sucked last year too.

Originally posted by Sickaa:

Originally posted by NinerPrideinNJ:
I understand that but the HC/OC still is an overseer of this. Look at what Harbaugh did to help transform Alex Smith from a bum to a very competent QB. I'm not saying Harbaugh is better, just using it as an example.

Maybe it's more of a QB coaching issue then. I'm just saying it feels weird that Garoppolo looked his best when he was his rawest and first joined. He's never looked as sharp or confident since. The injury certainly is a prime culprit as well. Just hard to delineate where his lack of assurance/tentativeness is due to fear of getting hurt/hit or of having too many things to think about in terms of the play execution.

That was a 5 game span in which the league has now Figured Jimmy out. Take away the short and Intermediate routes and Jimmy struggles.

it's not like Jimmy was some "unconventional" QB like Kap that got 'figured' out. a lot of his issues are on himself. accuracy inconsistency, staring guys down, missing underneath linebackers.

could not disagree more. lol

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by TheWooLick:
What about 2019? JG had a good year.
5th in TDs, 8th in passer rating, 3rd in yards per attempt...

-Near the bottom of the league football ALEX score
-2nd worst in the league in air yards to the sticks
-worst in the league in avg air yard differential
-3rd worst in avg intended air yards

and with all that he was 8th worst in INT% which means he threw the ball shorter than just about any QB in the league and yet threw INTs at one of the highest %

who f**king cares about all of those? was like top 5 in 3rd down conversions. which outweigh any of those stats besides INT's. we never had that with Alex. moving the chains consistently was something we had with Jimmy we hadn't had with any other QB in a long ass time.

Originally posted by TheWooLick:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by TheWooLick:
What about 2019? JG had a good year.
5th in TDs, 8th in passer rating, 3rd in yards per attempt...

-Near the bottom of the league football ALEX score
-2nd worst in the league in air yards to the sticks
-worst in the league in avg air yard differential
-3rd worst in avg intended air yards

and with all that he was 8th worst in INT% which means he threw the ball shorter than just about any QB in the league and yet threw INTs at one of the highest %

LOL at ALEX scores and other meaningless stats that do not translate to winning.

Forget a out TDs, wins and yards. Lets talk about "expected" yards.

lol i know right? what was Jimmy in 3rd down conversions? what was Jimmy in 4th quarter comebacks vs the rest of the league? s**t that matters.

Originally posted by SkyZer0:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by TheWooLick:

What about 2019? JG had a good year.
5th in TDs, 8th in passer rating, 3rd in yards per attempt...

-Near the bottom of the league football ALEX score
-2nd worst in the league in air yards to the sticks
-worst in the league in avg air yard differential
-3rd worst in avg intended air yards

and with all that he was 8th worst in INT% which means he threw the ball shorter than just about any QB in the league and yet threw INTs at one of the highest %

who f**king cares about all of those? was like top 5 in 3rd down conversions. which outweigh any of those stats besides INT's. we never had that with Alex. moving the chains consistently was something we had with Jimmy we hadn't had with any other QB in a long ass time.

I don't mean to speak for NY but I don't think he is content with having the best 49er QB we have had in 15 years. He wants a legit franchise QB and who can keep this franchise in contention for the next 10 years. People can throw out stats that say Jimmy is good and people can throw out stats that say he isn't good. For me as a fan it comes down to how does he look and as a QB he looks average and it limits what an offense can do.

Originally posted by Hysterikal:

Originally posted by SkyZer0:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by TheWooLick:
What about 2019? JG had a good year.
5th in TDs, 8th in passer rating, 3rd in yards per attempt...

-Near the bottom of the league football ALEX score
-2nd worst in the league in air yards to the sticks
-worst in the league in avg air yard differential
-3rd worst in avg intended air yards

and with all that he was 8th worst in INT% which means he threw the ball shorter than just about any QB in the league and yet threw INTs at one of the highest %

who f**king cares about all of those? was like top 5 in 3rd down conversions. which outweigh any of those stats besides INT's. we never had that with Alex. moving the chains consistently was something we had with Jimmy we hadn't had with any other QB in a long ass time.

I don't mean to speak for NY but I don't think he is content with having the best 49er QB we have had in 15 years. He wants a legit franchise QB and who can keep this franchise in contention for the next 10 years. People can throw out stats that say Jimmy is good and people can throw out stats that say he isn't good. For me as a fan it comes down to how does he look and as a QB he looks average and it limits what an offense can do.

it was just to make a point in regards to 3rd down. ive been on the bandwagon of moving on and looking elsewhere for a while now. just brought that up for perspective

Originally posted by SkyZer0:

Originally posted by Hysterikal:

Originally posted by SkyZer0:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by TheWooLick:

What about 2019? JG had a good year.
5th in TDs, 8th in passer rating, 3rd in yards per attempt...

-Near the bottom of the league football ALEX score
-2nd worst in the league in air yards to the sticks
-worst in the league in avg air yard differential
-3rd worst in avg intended air yards

and with all that he was 8th worst in INT% which means he threw the ball shorter than just about any QB in the league and yet threw INTs at one of the highest %

who f**king cares about all of those? was like top 5 in 3rd down conversions. which outweigh any of those stats besides INT's. we never had that with Alex. moving the chains consistently was something we had with Jimmy we hadn't had with any other QB in a long ass time.

I don't mean to speak for NY but I don't think he is content with having the best 49er QB we have had in 15 years. He wants a legit franchise QB and who can keep this franchise in contention for the next 10 years. People can throw out stats that say Jimmy is good and people can throw out stats that say he isn't good. For me as a fan it comes down to how does he look and as a QB he looks average and it limits what an offense can do.

it was just to make a point in regards to 3rd down. ive been on the bandwagon of moving on and looking elsewhere for a while now. just brought that up for perspective

I think most fans understand that Jimmy is good enough to win with. And if we can't get an upgrade which with every win becomes less and less likely. But if Jimmy comes back I won't be mad but I still don't ever have confidence any time he drops back to pass. I'm always waiting for the "how did you not see that linebacker" pass.

Originally posted by SkyZer0:
who f**king cares about all of those? was like top 5 in 3rd down conversions. which outweigh any of those stats besides INT's. we never had that with Alex. moving the chains consistently was something we had with Jimmy we hadn't had with any other QB in a long ass time.

If you actually understand the data it backs up a lot of what some of us have been saying.

Yes top 5 in 3rd down conversions, these stats directly tie into 3rd downs....

ALEX: Air Less EXpected. ALEX measures the average difference between how far a quarterback threw a pass (air yards) and how many yards he needed for a first down. If a quarterback throws a pass 5 yards behind the line of scrimmage on third-and-15, that would be minus-20 ALEX. The best application of ALEX is to look at third and fourth down when it's really crucial to get 100 percent of the need yards to extend the drive. A high ALEX would be indicative of a quarterback who aggressively attacks the sticks, while a low ALEX is indicative of a conservative quarterback more likely to check down and/or rely on YAC. Yes, the name is inspired by Alex Smith, who frequently has one of the lowest ALEX averages in the league.

He was 6th worst in the league in ALEX according to Football Outsiders, right next to Haskins.

Air Yards to the Sticks (AYTS)Air Yards to the Sticks shows the amount of Air Yards ahead or behind the first down marker on all attempts for a passer. The metric indicates if the passer is attempting his passes past the 1st down marker, or if he is relying on his skill position players to make yards after catch.

2nd worst in the league last yr in AYTS...So he basically relied on his skilled playmakers to get 3rd down conversions. Why does he get all the credit for that? It's why air yards is an important stat. It's not just about throwing deep balls all game. It's about actually throwing the ball forward consistently lol. It's the difference between a game manger type and guys who play are the next level.

context dude.

Originally posted by SkyZer0:
it was just to make a point in regards to 3rd down. ive been on the bandwagon of moving on and looking elsewhere for a while now. just brought that up for perspective

two of those stats are directly about 3rd down.