Jimmy Garoppolo, QB, Los Angeles Rams

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by OhioNiner:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Cisco0623:

Originally posted by OhioNiner:

Originally posted by Cisco0623:
Until I see Jimmy tossing it deep with accuracy i expect the same results as previous seasons. Assuming he stays healthy himself.

I get it, everyone now is enamored with the deep ball. Kinda like the old "Chicks dig the long ball" baseball commercials.

I mean I like it too. It's exciting and it stresses a defense.

However, much like a home run you only get so many opportunities to even do it in a game and yeah you don't want to miss on it when you do.

Plus it has a *potential* down side.
Trey Lance let's say completes the pass he did to Danny Gray in the preseason and it's the same result. Their defense wasn't on the field very long and ours is right back on the field. Of course the seven points are nice.

Jimmy dinks and dunks and we get some run game mixed in and we still get seven while keeping their defense on the field and ours off of it.

It would be nice if his deep ball improves. But aside from that he just needs to do what he does as well as he can. We didn't win or lose, didn't lose a Super Bowl because of his deep ball accuracy or lack thereof. Yes he overthrew Sanders. But that was no more the sole cause of the loss than Tartt dropping the pick last year.

You're going to have to explain to me and Emmanuel Sanders how missing him late in the 4th quarter of a SB Deep and Wide open to take the lead back didn't cost the team anything.

I said deep ball and people think I'm talking Madden. I mean the threat of a deep ball I know you don't throw it deep 20x a game, but defenses need to respect it and Jimmy throws about 4 a year. They dont worry about him going deep, he ignores guys one on one with a 50/50 deep ball every time.

Aside that fact, when you get into championship football I don't care how amazing your team is. There will come a point in the game where you QB NEEDS to make a throw and often it can be a deep shot. Jimmy has never done that. I don't see why that would change now.

I hope he has a f**k it attitude and plays lights out with instinct and not being timid, but I have seen Jimmy not see the right read or not throw it accurately too often to expect magical improvement.

It was only a small sample but we saw a different Jimmy Sunday. He dropped a 40-yard dime on BA along the far sideline that was dropped. It was not an easy catch but one Aiyuk will make most of the time. He also put up a 50/50 ball to Gray in the end zone. The placement could have been a bit better but it did send the message he is willing to put one up there. Denver will have those on film and they will influence the safeties come Sunday.

Let's hope we see more of those.

I honestly believe, and none of us know, that yes Jimmy left on his own will do those things more often.

It's been said and I see Marc Adams has a reply in his mailbag that Jimmy in 2017 was different than Jimmy ever since.

Yes that's post ACL. But it's also pre knowing all of Kyle's offense.

Only he and Kyle can answer that but I think it has much more to do with what Kyle wants Jimmy to do within his offense than it does with what Jimmy is willing or unwilling to do or able or unable to do. Maybe even in his own head. "If I mess up this throw deep it will mess everything else up."

I mean regardless of it's mental because of the ACL or mental because of what he's supposed to do in the offense one consistent observation with Jimmy is he's not playing the same way he did when he first got here. Not as loose and easy and confidently. Given that the ACL was a one time fluke thing back in 2018 I would tend to believe that's not it.

This is false and I KNOW it. Want to know how? (1) Shanahan said (paraphrasing) you'd always prefer the QB to throw to the open deep guy than the short guy, but if it's completed and move the chains, what are you gonna complain to the QB about?
(2) We can SEE THE FILM OURSELVES and see open guys down field not thrown to.

Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.

Alright, calm down there, buddy.
Here's some nuggets for you since people seem to think I'm not being honest about this. Many of the "deep" throws in Kyle's playbook are "alerts". They're triggered by certain conditions and ONLY by certain conditions. An alert is usually that you only look that way if there's a busted coverage.

FYI, these are all out of the 5-7 step drop portion of his playbook which is only half the passes. The rest are 3 step drop of play-action.


Here you see the corner routes are Alerts and the go route is a coverage adjustment route only against C2 zone


This is Kyle's version of Martz's Short post concept. The outside routes are Alerts and only verticals as coverage adjustments to run a vertical vs C2 zone



Even on a Go Shade the Go is only an Alert



These are only a few examples but what you see in the VAST MAJORITY of our plays. If we're throwing the Alert, it's got to be triggered by the conditions established by KS himself or a busted coverage. On an Alert, even then the QB is to peak quick and if he doesn't like it move on but NEVER let it disrupt the timing of the primary progression.
For example, If you see press-man on an Z stream, you check to make sure the D didn't bust the late motion and if they didn't you move on to your progression. It'll be super fast.

Golden playing Madden and JD teaching a masterclass.

And your hero is wrong. Cherry picking a few plays with the first read short, or even pointing out that most plays have the first read short, is just dodging the point. ALL NFL playbooks have an overwhelming number of plays where the first read is short. That is IRRELEVANT.

What even your hero cannot debate is that mysteriously Jimmy threw short more than most QBs and Trey didn't despite running THE SAME PLAYS.

It's absolutely SAD that this is so obviously true and yet we see these ridiculous hoops jumped through to deny it.

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by OhioNiner:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Cisco0623:

Originally posted by OhioNiner:

Originally posted by Cisco0623:
Until I see Jimmy tossing it deep with accuracy i expect the same results as previous seasons. Assuming he stays healthy himself.

I get it, everyone now is enamored with the deep ball. Kinda like the old "Chicks dig the long ball" baseball commercials.

I mean I like it too. It's exciting and it stresses a defense.

However, much like a home run you only get so many opportunities to even do it in a game and yeah you don't want to miss on it when you do.

Plus it has a *potential* down side.
Trey Lance let's say completes the pass he did to Danny Gray in the preseason and it's the same result. Their defense wasn't on the field very long and ours is right back on the field. Of course the seven points are nice.

Jimmy dinks and dunks and we get some run game mixed in and we still get seven while keeping their defense on the field and ours off of it.

It would be nice if his deep ball improves. But aside from that he just needs to do what he does as well as he can. We didn't win or lose, didn't lose a Super Bowl because of his deep ball accuracy or lack thereof. Yes he overthrew Sanders. But that was no more the sole cause of the loss than Tartt dropping the pick last year.

You're going to have to explain to me and Emmanuel Sanders how missing him late in the 4th quarter of a SB Deep and Wide open to take the lead back didn't cost the team anything.

I said deep ball and people think I'm talking Madden. I mean the threat of a deep ball I know you don't throw it deep 20x a game, but defenses need to respect it and Jimmy throws about 4 a year. They dont worry about him going deep, he ignores guys one on one with a 50/50 deep ball every time.

Aside that fact, when you get into championship football I don't care how amazing your team is. There will come a point in the game where you QB NEEDS to make a throw and often it can be a deep shot. Jimmy has never done that. I don't see why that would change now.

I hope he has a f**k it attitude and plays lights out with instinct and not being timid, but I have seen Jimmy not see the right read or not throw it accurately too often to expect magical improvement.

It was only a small sample but we saw a different Jimmy Sunday. He dropped a 40-yard dime on BA along the far sideline that was dropped. It was not an easy catch but one Aiyuk will make most of the time. He also put up a 50/50 ball to Gray in the end zone. The placement could have been a bit better but it did send the message he is willing to put one up there. Denver will have those on film and they will influence the safeties come Sunday.

Let's hope we see more of those.

I honestly believe, and none of us know, that yes Jimmy left on his own will do those things more often.

It's been said and I see Marc Adams has a reply in his mailbag that Jimmy in 2017 was different than Jimmy ever since.

Yes that's post ACL. But it's also pre knowing all of Kyle's offense.

Only he and Kyle can answer that but I think it has much more to do with what Kyle wants Jimmy to do within his offense than it does with what Jimmy is willing or unwilling to do or able or unable to do. Maybe even in his own head. "If I mess up this throw deep it will mess everything else up."

I mean regardless of it's mental because of the ACL or mental because of what he's supposed to do in the offense one consistent observation with Jimmy is he's not playing the same way he did when he first got here. Not as loose and easy and confidently. Given that the ACL was a one time fluke thing back in 2018 I would tend to believe that's not it.

This is false and I KNOW it. Want to know how? (1) Shanahan said (paraphrasing) you'd always prefer the QB to throw to the open deep guy than the short guy, but if it's completed and move the chains, what are you gonna complain to the QB about?
(2) We can SEE THE FILM OURSELVES and see open guys down field not thrown to.

Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.

Alright, calm down there, buddy.
Here's some nuggets for you since people seem to think I'm not being honest about this. Many of the "deep" throws in Kyle's playbook are "alerts". They're triggered by certain conditions and ONLY by certain conditions. An alert is usually that you only look that way if there's a busted coverage.

FYI, these are all out of the 5-7 step drop portion of his playbook which is only half the passes. The rest are 3 step drop of play-action.


Here you see the corner routes are Alerts and the go route is a coverage adjustment route only against C2 zone


This is Kyle's version of Martz's Short post concept. The outside routes are Alerts and only verticals as coverage adjustments to run a vertical vs C2 zone



Even on a Go Shade the Go is only an Alert



These are only a few examples but what you see in the VAST MAJORITY of our plays. If we're throwing the Alert, it's got to be triggered by the conditions established by KS himself or a busted coverage. On an Alert, even then the QB is to peak quick and if he doesn't like it move on but NEVER let it disrupt the timing of the primary progression.
For example, If you see press-man on an Z stream, you check to make sure the D didn't bust the late motion and if they didn't you move on to your progression. It'll be super fast.

Golden playing Madden and JD teaching a masterclass.

And your hero is wrong. Cherry picking a few plays with the first read short, or even pointing out that most plays have the first read short, is just dodging the point. ALL NFL playbooks have an overwhelming number of plays where the first read is short. That is IRRELEVANT.

What even your hero cannot debate is that mysteriously Jimmy threw short more than most QBs and Trey didn't despite running THE SAME PLAYS.

It's absolutely SAD that this is so obviously true and yet we see these ridiculous hoops jumped through to deny it.

Same play, two different QB's. #49ers pic.twitter.com/IQIY8vfk7w

— Jack Hammer (@JackHammer_NFL) November 8, 2021

Lol Uncle Rico accusing others of cherry picking while JD provided multiple plays while he cherry picks one. Lol the audacity. If you're going to accuse others of cherry picking you probably shouldn't do it yourself. One tweet compared to many of hours that JD has put out.

Originally posted by Garce:

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by OhioNiner:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Cisco0623:

Originally posted by OhioNiner:

Originally posted by Cisco0623:
Until I see Jimmy tossing it deep with accuracy i expect the same results as previous seasons. Assuming he stays healthy himself.

I get it, everyone now is enamored with the deep ball. Kinda like the old "Chicks dig the long ball" baseball commercials.

I mean I like it too. It's exciting and it stresses a defense.

However, much like a home run you only get so many opportunities to even do it in a game and yeah you don't want to miss on it when you do.

Plus it has a *potential* down side.
Trey Lance let's say completes the pass he did to Danny Gray in the preseason and it's the same result. Their defense wasn't on the field very long and ours is right back on the field. Of course the seven points are nice.

Jimmy dinks and dunks and we get some run game mixed in and we still get seven while keeping their defense on the field and ours off of it.

It would be nice if his deep ball improves. But aside from that he just needs to do what he does as well as he can. We didn't win or lose, didn't lose a Super Bowl because of his deep ball accuracy or lack thereof. Yes he overthrew Sanders. But that was no more the sole cause of the loss than Tartt dropping the pick last year.

You're going to have to explain to me and Emmanuel Sanders how missing him late in the 4th quarter of a SB Deep and Wide open to take the lead back didn't cost the team anything.

I said deep ball and people think I'm talking Madden. I mean the threat of a deep ball I know you don't throw it deep 20x a game, but defenses need to respect it and Jimmy throws about 4 a year. They dont worry about him going deep, he ignores guys one on one with a 50/50 deep ball every time.

Aside that fact, when you get into championship football I don't care how amazing your team is. There will come a point in the game where you QB NEEDS to make a throw and often it can be a deep shot. Jimmy has never done that. I don't see why that would change now.

I hope he has a f**k it attitude and plays lights out with instinct and not being timid, but I have seen Jimmy not see the right read or not throw it accurately too often to expect magical improvement.

It was only a small sample but we saw a different Jimmy Sunday. He dropped a 40-yard dime on BA along the far sideline that was dropped. It was not an easy catch but one Aiyuk will make most of the time. He also put up a 50/50 ball to Gray in the end zone. The placement could have been a bit better but it did send the message he is willing to put one up there. Denver will have those on film and they will influence the safeties come Sunday.

Let's hope we see more of those.

I honestly believe, and none of us know, that yes Jimmy left on his own will do those things more often.

It's been said and I see Marc Adams has a reply in his mailbag that Jimmy in 2017 was different than Jimmy ever since.

Yes that's post ACL. But it's also pre knowing all of Kyle's offense.

Only he and Kyle can answer that but I think it has much more to do with what Kyle wants Jimmy to do within his offense than it does with what Jimmy is willing or unwilling to do or able or unable to do. Maybe even in his own head. "If I mess up this throw deep it will mess everything else up."

I mean regardless of it's mental because of the ACL or mental because of what he's supposed to do in the offense one consistent observation with Jimmy is he's not playing the same way he did when he first got here. Not as loose and easy and confidently. Given that the ACL was a one time fluke thing back in 2018 I would tend to believe that's not it.

This is false and I KNOW it. Want to know how? (1) Shanahan said (paraphrasing) you'd always prefer the QB to throw to the open deep guy than the short guy, but if it's completed and move the chains, what are you gonna complain to the QB about?
(2) We can SEE THE FILM OURSELVES and see open guys down field not thrown to.

Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.

Alright, calm down there, buddy.
Here's some nuggets for you since people seem to think I'm not being honest about this. Many of the "deep" throws in Kyle's playbook are "alerts". They're triggered by certain conditions and ONLY by certain conditions. An alert is usually that you only look that way if there's a busted coverage.

FYI, these are all out of the 5-7 step drop portion of his playbook which is only half the passes. The rest are 3 step drop of play-action.


Here you see the corner routes are Alerts and the go route is a coverage adjustment route only against C2 zone


This is Kyle's version of Martz's Short post concept. The outside routes are Alerts and only verticals as coverage adjustments to run a vertical vs C2 zone



Even on a Go Shade the Go is only an Alert



These are only a few examples but what you see in the VAST MAJORITY of our plays. If we're throwing the Alert, it's got to be triggered by the conditions established by KS himself or a busted coverage. On an Alert, even then the QB is to peak quick and if he doesn't like it move on but NEVER let it disrupt the timing of the primary progression.
For example, If you see press-man on an Z stream, you check to make sure the D didn't bust the late motion and if they didn't you move on to your progression. It'll be super fast.

Phenomenal post and super insightful. Makes total sense as we never attack deep in most games. I'm disappointed to see this but not surprising.

He posted a few plays. Jimmy passes up deep passes to throw short. That's a fact, no matter what johnnydel says regarding this. It's a fact of reality. All he has done is point out an irrelevant side note about plays that he selected which have a short first read and an alert deep, and then argued that all Shanahan plays are like that. Meanwhile he posted one with a deep post as the primary read, which undermines the argument you guys think he's making.

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Golden playing Madden and JD teaching a masterclass.

we all know the HC adjusts to his QBs and not the QB adjusting to the HC

the plays are to help with jimmy's weakness

LOL, that playbook is from spring of 2018. Which, BTW, is VERY similar to Kyle's 2015 Falcons playbook. I guess Matt Ryan had the same, "weaknesses" that Kyle had to "help" with.

It's also pretty similar to Mike Shanahans' late 90's playbooks with John Elway, save for adding some more stuff like from the Martz offense and some other wrinkles here and there.
I guess Elway had the same weaknesses as Jimmy.....

If you've followed any of Shanahan's(his or his dads) work you know that they're both system guys. They expect the players to run their system and adjust to them. There is the element of trying to utilize players' strengths but for the most part the guys are expected to run the system. If Mike had Barry Sanders, he still would've had him run the wide-zone based scheme. Same if he had Frank Gore. It's why guys like Mark Schlereth who played in Mike's system in Denver really like Jimmy G because they know a lot of the passing concepts and run scheme from running it for years with Mike.

And yet mysteriously Matt Ryan threw the ball down the field so well.

https://brickwallblitz.com/2017/03/26/the-2016-17-deep-ball-project-part-33/

If Jimmy is throwing deep more it's because Jimmy is taking more chances.

Imagine being so amazingly bitter and negative after a win against a divisional foe. Can't even be positive for a week even though after a loss guys like Uncle Rico spent all week making excuses, some of them rightfully so. Then you guys get all defensive when people call you haters because you can't even give the guy a single compliment after a good win. Instead, after a good win it's in your nature to just have to bring the guy down and be negative.

This is every week with you certain guys. You were even this way after playoff wins. I understand Jimmy is faaaaaaar from perfect but can't you give a little credit for once? Why must a few of you always just tear the guy down? And I'm not sitting here saying that Jimmy doesn't have some glaring flaws and that he doesn't deserve criticism but he also has some damn good traits too that have helped us win a lot of games. It'd be nice if we could focus on those for once...after a win.

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:


And your hero is wrong. Cherry picking a few plays with the first read short, or even pointing out that most plays have the first read short, is just dodging the point. ALL NFL playbooks have an overwhelming number of plays where the first read is short. That is IRRELEVANT.

What even your hero cannot debate is that mysteriously Jimmy threw short more than most QBs and Trey didn't despite running THE SAME PLAYS.

It's absolutely SAD that this is so obviously true and yet we see these ridiculous hoops jumped through to deny it.

Same play, two different QB's. #49ers pic.twitter.com/IQIY8vfk7w

— Jack Hammer (@JackHammer_NFL) November 8, 2021

Nick Mullens also threw the ball deeper down the field. One of the reasons I thought our offense looked better with Mullens in 2018

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by Garce:

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by OhioNiner:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Cisco0623:

Originally posted by OhioNiner:

Originally posted by Cisco0623:
Until I see Jimmy tossing it deep with accuracy i expect the same results as previous seasons. Assuming he stays healthy himself.

I get it, everyone now is enamored with the deep ball. Kinda like the old "Chicks dig the long ball" baseball commercials.

I mean I like it too. It's exciting and it stresses a defense.

However, much like a home run you only get so many opportunities to even do it in a game and yeah you don't want to miss on it when you do.

Plus it has a *potential* down side.
Trey Lance let's say completes the pass he did to Danny Gray in the preseason and it's the same result. Their defense wasn't on the field very long and ours is right back on the field. Of course the seven points are nice.

Jimmy dinks and dunks and we get some run game mixed in and we still get seven while keeping their defense on the field and ours off of it.

It would be nice if his deep ball improves. But aside from that he just needs to do what he does as well as he can. We didn't win or lose, didn't lose a Super Bowl because of his deep ball accuracy or lack thereof. Yes he overthrew Sanders. But that was no more the sole cause of the loss than Tartt dropping the pick last year.

You're going to have to explain to me and Emmanuel Sanders how missing him late in the 4th quarter of a SB Deep and Wide open to take the lead back didn't cost the team anything.

I said deep ball and people think I'm talking Madden. I mean the threat of a deep ball I know you don't throw it deep 20x a game, but defenses need to respect it and Jimmy throws about 4 a year. They dont worry about him going deep, he ignores guys one on one with a 50/50 deep ball every time.

Aside that fact, when you get into championship football I don't care how amazing your team is. There will come a point in the game where you QB NEEDS to make a throw and often it can be a deep shot. Jimmy has never done that. I don't see why that would change now.

I hope he has a f**k it attitude and plays lights out with instinct and not being timid, but I have seen Jimmy not see the right read or not throw it accurately too often to expect magical improvement.

It was only a small sample but we saw a different Jimmy Sunday. He dropped a 40-yard dime on BA along the far sideline that was dropped. It was not an easy catch but one Aiyuk will make most of the time. He also put up a 50/50 ball to Gray in the end zone. The placement could have been a bit better but it did send the message he is willing to put one up there. Denver will have those on film and they will influence the safeties come Sunday.

Let's hope we see more of those.

I honestly believe, and none of us know, that yes Jimmy left on his own will do those things more often.

It's been said and I see Marc Adams has a reply in his mailbag that Jimmy in 2017 was different than Jimmy ever since.

Yes that's post ACL. But it's also pre knowing all of Kyle's offense.

Only he and Kyle can answer that but I think it has much more to do with what Kyle wants Jimmy to do within his offense than it does with what Jimmy is willing or unwilling to do or able or unable to do. Maybe even in his own head. "If I mess up this throw deep it will mess everything else up."

I mean regardless of it's mental because of the ACL or mental because of what he's supposed to do in the offense one consistent observation with Jimmy is he's not playing the same way he did when he first got here. Not as loose and easy and confidently. Given that the ACL was a one time fluke thing back in 2018 I would tend to believe that's not it.

This is false and I KNOW it. Want to know how? (1) Shanahan said (paraphrasing) you'd always prefer the QB to throw to the open deep guy than the short guy, but if it's completed and move the chains, what are you gonna complain to the QB about?
(2) We can SEE THE FILM OURSELVES and see open guys down field not thrown to.

Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.

Alright, calm down there, buddy.
Here's some nuggets for you since people seem to think I'm not being honest about this. Many of the "deep" throws in Kyle's playbook are "alerts". They're triggered by certain conditions and ONLY by certain conditions. An alert is usually that you only look that way if there's a busted coverage.

FYI, these are all out of the 5-7 step drop portion of his playbook which is only half the passes. The rest are 3 step drop of play-action.


Here you see the corner routes are Alerts and the go route is a coverage adjustment route only against C2 zone


This is Kyle's version of Martz's Short post concept. The outside routes are Alerts and only verticals as coverage adjustments to run a vertical vs C2 zone



Even on a Go Shade the Go is only an Alert



These are only a few examples but what you see in the VAST MAJORITY of our plays. If we're throwing the Alert, it's got to be triggered by the conditions established by KS himself or a busted coverage. On an Alert, even then the QB is to peak quick and if he doesn't like it move on but NEVER let it disrupt the timing of the primary progression.
For example, If you see press-man on an Z stream, you check to make sure the D didn't bust the late motion and if they didn't you move on to your progression. It'll be super fast.

Phenomenal post and super insightful. Makes total sense as we never attack deep in most games. I'm disappointed to see this but not surprising.

He posted a few plays. Jimmy passes up deep passes to throw short. That's a fact, no matter what johnnydel says regarding this. It's a fact of reality. All he has done is point out an irrelevant side note about plays that he selected which have a short first read and an alert deep, and then argued that all Shanahan plays are like that. Meanwhile he posted one with a deep post as the primary read, which undermines the argument you guys think he's making.

It is glaringly obvious that Jonnydel knows much more about the game than you think you do, lol.

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by OhioNiner:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Cisco0623:

Originally posted by OhioNiner:

Originally posted by Cisco0623:
Until I see Jimmy tossing it deep with accuracy i expect the same results as previous seasons. Assuming he stays healthy himself.

I get it, everyone now is enamored with the deep ball. Kinda like the old "Chicks dig the long ball" baseball commercials.

I mean I like it too. It's exciting and it stresses a defense.

However, much like a home run you only get so many opportunities to even do it in a game and yeah you don't want to miss on it when you do.

Plus it has a *potential* down side.
Trey Lance let's say completes the pass he did to Danny Gray in the preseason and it's the same result. Their defense wasn't on the field very long and ours is right back on the field. Of course the seven points are nice.

Jimmy dinks and dunks and we get some run game mixed in and we still get seven while keeping their defense on the field and ours off of it.

It would be nice if his deep ball improves. But aside from that he just needs to do what he does as well as he can. We didn't win or lose, didn't lose a Super Bowl because of his deep ball accuracy or lack thereof. Yes he overthrew Sanders. But that was no more the sole cause of the loss than Tartt dropping the pick last year.

You're going to have to explain to me and Emmanuel Sanders how missing him late in the 4th quarter of a SB Deep and Wide open to take the lead back didn't cost the team anything.

I said deep ball and people think I'm talking Madden. I mean the threat of a deep ball I know you don't throw it deep 20x a game, but defenses need to respect it and Jimmy throws about 4 a year. They dont worry about him going deep, he ignores guys one on one with a 50/50 deep ball every time.

Aside that fact, when you get into championship football I don't care how amazing your team is. There will come a point in the game where you QB NEEDS to make a throw and often it can be a deep shot. Jimmy has never done that. I don't see why that would change now.

I hope he has a f**k it attitude and plays lights out with instinct and not being timid, but I have seen Jimmy not see the right read or not throw it accurately too often to expect magical improvement.

It was only a small sample but we saw a different Jimmy Sunday. He dropped a 40-yard dime on BA along the far sideline that was dropped. It was not an easy catch but one Aiyuk will make most of the time. He also put up a 50/50 ball to Gray in the end zone. The placement could have been a bit better but it did send the message he is willing to put one up there. Denver will have those on film and they will influence the safeties come Sunday.

Let's hope we see more of those.

I honestly believe, and none of us know, that yes Jimmy left on his own will do those things more often.

It's been said and I see Marc Adams has a reply in his mailbag that Jimmy in 2017 was different than Jimmy ever since.

Yes that's post ACL. But it's also pre knowing all of Kyle's offense.

Only he and Kyle can answer that but I think it has much more to do with what Kyle wants Jimmy to do within his offense than it does with what Jimmy is willing or unwilling to do or able or unable to do. Maybe even in his own head. "If I mess up this throw deep it will mess everything else up."

I mean regardless of it's mental because of the ACL or mental because of what he's supposed to do in the offense one consistent observation with Jimmy is he's not playing the same way he did when he first got here. Not as loose and easy and confidently. Given that the ACL was a one time fluke thing back in 2018 I would tend to believe that's not it.

This is false and I KNOW it. Want to know how? (1) Shanahan said (paraphrasing) you'd always prefer the QB to throw to the open deep guy than the short guy, but if it's completed and move the chains, what are you gonna complain to the QB about?
(2) We can SEE THE FILM OURSELVES and see open guys down field not thrown to.

Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.

Alright, calm down there, buddy.
Here's some nuggets for you since people seem to think I'm not being honest about this. Many of the "deep" throws in Kyle's playbook are "alerts". They're triggered by certain conditions and ONLY by certain conditions. An alert is usually that you only look that way if there's a busted coverage.

FYI, these are all out of the 5-7 step drop portion of his playbook which is only half the passes. The rest are 3 step drop of play-action.


Here you see the corner routes are Alerts and the go route is a coverage adjustment route only against C2 zone


This is Kyle's version of Martz's Short post concept. The outside routes are Alerts and only verticals as coverage adjustments to run a vertical vs C2 zone



Even on a Go+Shade the Go is only an Alert



These are only a few examples but what you see in the VAST MAJORITY of our plays. If we're throwing the Alert, it's got to be triggered by the conditions established by KS himself or a busted coverage. On an Alert, even then the QB is to peak quick and if he doesn't like it move on but NEVER let it disrupt the timing of the primary progression.
For example, If you see press-man on an Z stream, you check to make sure the D didn't bust the late motion and if they didn't you move on to your progression. It'll be super fast.

My comment was to Ohioniner, not you. I am not sure of the custom here, but as I understand it, the last person in the quote chain is usually the one being responded to on most websites. But this has happened a couple of times here so I'm wondering if people think that if they are in the chain of quotes that the most recent comment is to them.

Anyway, as far as these random plays, Shanahan generally has a progression offense, and we can see on the tape when a guy is open down the field and the short pass is taken. For example:

Same play, two different QB's. #49ers pic.twitter.com/IQIY8vfk7w

— Jack Hammer (@JackHammer_NFL) November 8, 2021

I really, really hope you're not arguing that the above isn't real. It happened, and it happens frequently. Like last year on the Texans on the pa boot to the left where Trey through the deep cross while everyone knows Jimmy would have taken the throw to the tight end.

So I will say unequivocally that Shanahan is NOT why Jimmy throws it short so often. That's Jimmy's reads most of the time; and they are not always the ideal read, even if they are safer.

Well a couple things, it's not like we haven't seen Jimmy throw the corner-post and Trey threw it because the middle safety was out of position. Surely, since you played QB you know that a safety can be in position or out of position on a deep post and still be back deep.

Your post from Jack, whom I will admit I'm friendly with Jack, but it's 2 different coverages. One is C3 sky the other is C3 cloud. The safety in sky is shaded to the double post/in side so the throwing lane isn't there. The clouds the late rotation of the middle safety opens up the play.

In go+Shade we've seen Jimmy throw the high cross a bunch of times - it's actually a route people use as the "Jimmy only throws over the middle" thing. He's thrown it to Kittle on these umpteen million times. It's a hi/lo read on the WILL as it crosses the face of the middle safety or a hi/lo on the MIKE in C2.

Did you read Lombardis article when he talked to Jimmy at his locker after the game and then asked him about it in his presser?

He said Jimmy was THRILLED to push the ball down the field in the last game. Then Lombardi followed up on it in the presser, Jimmy said, "yeah like we were talking about earlier felt more like 2017 when it was go out there, throw it and make plays. That's different from what we normally do around here, but sometimes you need that."

Everything I've read from Shanahan and see from his QB's, all of them, and the playbook is very structured.

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by OhioNiner:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Cisco0623:

Originally posted by OhioNiner:

Originally posted by Cisco0623:
Until I see Jimmy tossing it deep with accuracy i expect the same results as previous seasons. Assuming he stays healthy himself.

I get it, everyone now is enamored with the deep ball. Kinda like the old "Chicks dig the long ball" baseball commercials.

I mean I like it too. It's exciting and it stresses a defense.

However, much like a home run you only get so many opportunities to even do it in a game and yeah you don't want to miss on it when you do.

Plus it has a *potential* down side.
Trey Lance let's say completes the pass he did to Danny Gray in the preseason and it's the same result. Their defense wasn't on the field very long and ours is right back on the field. Of course the seven points are nice.

Jimmy dinks and dunks and we get some run game mixed in and we still get seven while keeping their defense on the field and ours off of it.

It would be nice if his deep ball improves. But aside from that he just needs to do what he does as well as he can. We didn't win or lose, didn't lose a Super Bowl because of his deep ball accuracy or lack thereof. Yes he overthrew Sanders. But that was no more the sole cause of the loss than Tartt dropping the pick last year.

You're going to have to explain to me and Emmanuel Sanders how missing him late in the 4th quarter of a SB Deep and Wide open to take the lead back didn't cost the team anything.

I said deep ball and people think I'm talking Madden. I mean the threat of a deep ball I know you don't throw it deep 20x a game, but defenses need to respect it and Jimmy throws about 4 a year. They dont worry about him going deep, he ignores guys one on one with a 50/50 deep ball every time.

Aside that fact, when you get into championship football I don't care how amazing your team is. There will come a point in the game where you QB NEEDS to make a throw and often it can be a deep shot. Jimmy has never done that. I don't see why that would change now.

I hope he has a f**k it attitude and plays lights out with instinct and not being timid, but I have seen Jimmy not see the right read or not throw it accurately too often to expect magical improvement.

It was only a small sample but we saw a different Jimmy Sunday. He dropped a 40-yard dime on BA along the far sideline that was dropped. It was not an easy catch but one Aiyuk will make most of the time. He also put up a 50/50 ball to Gray in the end zone. The placement could have been a bit better but it did send the message he is willing to put one up there. Denver will have those on film and they will influence the safeties come Sunday.

Let's hope we see more of those.

I honestly believe, and none of us know, that yes Jimmy left on his own will do those things more often.

It's been said and I see Marc Adams has a reply in his mailbag that Jimmy in 2017 was different than Jimmy ever since.

Yes that's post ACL. But it's also pre knowing all of Kyle's offense.

Only he and Kyle can answer that but I think it has much more to do with what Kyle wants Jimmy to do within his offense than it does with what Jimmy is willing or unwilling to do or able or unable to do. Maybe even in his own head. "If I mess up this throw deep it will mess everything else up."

I mean regardless of it's mental because of the ACL or mental because of what he's supposed to do in the offense one consistent observation with Jimmy is he's not playing the same way he did when he first got here. Not as loose and easy and confidently. Given that the ACL was a one time fluke thing back in 2018 I would tend to believe that's not it.

This is false and I KNOW it. Want to know how? (1) Shanahan said (paraphrasing) you'd always prefer the QB to throw to the open deep guy than the short guy, but if it's completed and move the chains, what are you gonna complain to the QB about?
(2) We can SEE THE FILM OURSELVES and see open guys down field not thrown to.

Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.
Shanahan is not preventing Jimmy from throwing deep.

Alright, calm down there, buddy.
Here's some nuggets for you since people seem to think I'm not being honest about this. Many of the "deep" throws in Kyle's playbook are "alerts". They're triggered by certain conditions and ONLY by certain conditions. An alert is usually that you only look that way if there's a busted coverage.

FYI, these are all out of the 5-7 step drop portion of his playbook which is only half the passes. The rest are 3 step drop of play-action.


Here you see the corner routes are Alerts and the go route is a coverage adjustment route only against C2 zone


This is Kyle's version of Martz's Short post concept. The outside routes are Alerts and only verticals as coverage adjustments to run a vertical vs C2 zone



Even on a Go+Shade the Go is only an Alert



These are only a few examples but what you see in the VAST MAJORITY of our plays. If we're throwing the Alert, it's got to be triggered by the conditions established by KS himself or a busted coverage. On an Alert, even then the QB is to peak quick and if he doesn't like it move on but NEVER let it disrupt the timing of the primary progression.
For example, If you see press-man on an Z stream, you check to make sure the D didn't bust the late motion and if they didn't you move on to your progression. It'll be super fast.

Golden playing Madden and JD teaching a masterclass.

Yeah no. What JD did was cherry pick okays with the first read short because he thought my post to Ohioniner was an attack on him. Look at the last one he posted. What is the number one read? Where is Jimmy throwing it 90% of the time?

You can believe I'm Cherry picking all you want, it's not true. Don't accuse me of something with zero evidence to the contrary. I actually picked the first play with multiple deep routes in the 5-7 step drop portion BECAUSE I knew if I didn't, you would say I was cherry picking. But sure, accuse me of pure horsesh--

Originally posted by Memphis9er:

It is glaringly obvious that Jonnydel knows much more about the game than you think you do, lol.

Jonny does push narratives that aren't always true so I wouldn't take what he says as gospel

Originally posted by CharlieSheen:

Originally posted by Memphis9er:
It is glaringly obvious that Jonnydel knows much more about the game than you think you do, lol.

Jonny does push narratives that aren't always true so I wouldn't take what he says as gospel

But don't some of you do the same when you post three plays from twitter and act like that's Jimmy's career.

Originally posted by CharlieSheen:

Originally posted by Memphis9er:
It is glaringly obvious that Jonnydel knows much more about the game than you think you do, lol.

Jonny does push narratives that aren't always true so I wouldn't take what he says as gospel

A narrative, by its nature, is an opinion. Gospel doesn't enter into it. Jonny brings a good deal of knowledge to his posts, He may on occasion state an opinion that I disagree with, but that doesn't make it untrue.

This is the second post on this single page that attacks a poster, or in the case of the other one, a whole group of posters.

Originally posted by English:

A narrative, by its nature, is an opinion. Gospel doesn't enter into it. Jonny brings a good deal of knowledge to his posts, He may on occasion state an opinion that I disagree with, but that doesn't make it untrue.

This is the second post on this single page that attacks a poster, or in the case of the other one, a whole group of posters.

The post I replied to was an attack. Im just telling him to be careful attacking peoples intelligence because Jonny has pushed narratives that weren't true.

That's not an attack it's fact

Originally posted by Kolohe:
But don't some of you do the same when you post three plays from twitter and act like that's Jimmy's career.

Think that works both ways…it's either the good plays which the "over the top Jimmy fans" seem to act like that's the normal or it's the bad plays which the "move on from Jimmy crowd" jump too.

maybe just maybe it's somewhere in the middle. Kinda like where Jimmy is within the pecking order of starting QBs in the league?

Originally posted by Kolohe:

Originally posted by CharlieSheen:

Originally posted by Memphis9er:

It is glaringly obvious that Jonnydel knows much more about the game than you think you do, lol.

Jonny does push narratives that aren't always true so I wouldn't take what he says as gospel

But don't some of you do the same when you post three plays from twitter and act like that's Jimmy's career.

I am happy that Jimmy is starting.