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Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
beating inferior teams is fun in all, but he doesn't win when it counts due to his limitations and constant mistakes
i really hope he can change that this year, but it's year 6 now
Originally posted by TheWooLick:
Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
we still trying blame everyone else due to jimmys limitations .. just call the spade a spade and move on
He is available and he wins.
Those are what concern me.
Originally posted by TheGore49er:
Thankfully Jimmy is modern day Brett Favre when it always comes to his availability. We don't have to worry about his health ever!
Originally posted by eastie:Clearly you haven't been paying attention or knows what winning when it counts means
Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
beating inferior teams is fun in all, but he doesn't win when it counts due to his limitations and constant mistakes
i really hope he can change that this year, but it's year 6 now
That's a dumb comment. He has taken this team to TWO NFC Championship games in the last three years and one Superbowl. That's the very definition of winning when it counts. Your hate for the player is clouding what you see.
Originally posted by NYniner85:
Jimmy do work on SNF! I'll root for you as long as you are in SF. I will also be objective and know he's an avg starting NFL QB, which isn't horrible but the truth. Either way we got some pretty bad QB play across the league and guys starting that have no business being starters. Jimmy is a starter.
when Trey comes back, I will root for him to succeed and understand it's a process. You don't wake up and magically become a great pocket passing QB. It will require reps and getting through all of it. Let's be objective about all of it and understand the process. I would think there's room for 49er fans to support both.
Originally posted by 49ers81:
Originally posted by NYniner85:
Jimmy do work on SNF! I'll root for you as long as you are in SF. I will also be objective and know he's an avg starting NFL QB, which isn't horrible but the truth. Either way we got some pretty bad QB play across the league and guys starting that have no business being starters. Jimmy is a starter.
when Trey comes back, I will root for him to succeed and understand it's a process. You don't wake up and magically become a great pocket passing QB. It will require reps and getting through all of it. Let's be objective about all of it and understand the process. I would think there's room for 49er fans to support both.
You see, this is where you keep getting yourself in trouble. You always claim you're just being objective about something which you assert is an "obvious" truth, which is that Jimmy is an average QB. That's you're opinion and you're entitled to it but that doesn't make it true. It is a common theme in this thread and, from the opposite side posted by others in the Lance thread. People keep mistaking their opinions for some hard truth and so they feel compelled to have to endlessly debate their point to convince everyone else that their opinion is the correct one, and everyone else is just too stupid to realize it, when in fact it's just your opinion.
It's like the hypocrisy of another poster in here who has been going on about how he and others don't REALLY dislike Jimmy, they are just offering valid "criticisms" of his play. Spending ten pages worth of posts arguing about whether or not a pass that Jimmy threw to Deebo against Chicago last year, that resulted in a TD that helped them win the game was a good pass or not. That's not just "criticism" that's pathological. Jimmy threw it, Deebo caught it, they scored a TD, who cares.
It's also like an idea, that is popular in here and is often echoed among some of the talking head class on TV, looking at you Dan Orlovsky, which claims that it's the defense and Kyle's scheme that are primarily responsible for the team's success and that Jimmy has virtually nothing to do with it and is just along for the ride. If that were true then just about any QB of average skill should be able to do it, but so far that hasn't been the case. They win with Jimmy and lose with everyone else. Does Jimmy have his shortcomings? Absolutely, but so far he has been the only one that has manged to keep the team competitive through the course of a whole season.
Now of course the hope with Lance is that he will have a higher ceiling than Jimmy in terms of his ability to attack down the field more frequently, which seems to be the only thing that some people in here care about. They will go on about how the threat of the deep ball puts more pressure on opposing defenses and forces them to defend the whole field and yadda, yadda, yadda. But if you read between the lines a bit you will usually find that they just think it's more "entertaining" to watch a QB throw the ball all around the field then the ground and pound, short passing game which seems to have been the team's philosophy for the past few year's. I will let guys like Jonnydel sort all of that out because he clearly has more insight on it.
The book on Lance has yet to be written. I think it is everyone's hope that he will turn out to be everything the team believed he could be when they drafted him, but he is still, clearly, a work in progress, People say that the conditions in the Chicago game were a big factor in that loss. Probably, but there was a game against Washington in 2019 where it was also pouring down rain and the team had five turnovers and yet they still found a way to win it with Jimmy at the helm.
Although it was a very limited sample size, the offense did not look particularly dynamic in the first couple of drives against Seattle. They were running the ball well but there was just something about it that seemed a bit off. It was pointed out by some analyst I was watching that on Deebo's long run on a read option Lance made the wrong read on that play and should have kept the ball himself. Deebo's skill turned what looked like a sure loss into a huge gain so it worked out, which I am cool with, but it was still, apparently the wrong call by Lance, which is just his inexperience, So now this whole experiment has been put on hold for another year, which is unfortunate in some ways but may allow for the short term benefit of the team being more competitive this year.
This whole situation is an odd one with a lot of competing narratives. Steve Young, who lost two straight NFC championship games as I recall because of ill timed picks, is telling anyone who will listen that Jimmy got "fired" from the job, which is hard to argue with. Dan Orlovsky, is telling anyone who will listen that Jimmy is just along for the ride and can't get the team over the hump. This from a guy who I don't think ever took his team to an NFL playoff game. However there is someone else out there, whose name escapes me for the moment, pointing out that one of the underlying dynamics at play here is that Lance was handed the job, because of his draft status, without the benefit of actually having earned it which is something that may have led to some of the recent talk being rumored to have come out of the locker room.
When Jimmy's status was still unclear as training camp approached and the team was saying, at least publicly, that they weren't going to release him I suggested that if that were the case they should just bring him back to camp and let he and Lance compete for the job and may the best man win. That would help ease any unspoken issues among the team about who should start and might have been beneficial in terms of Lance's development in terms of making him compete for a job that he had already planned on being his. I mean, if Lance is destined to be so much better than Jimmy than he shouldn't have had any problem beating him out in camp, right?
But that's not the way things worked out and now Jimmy is back as QB1 and we'll see how far he can take us. I am of the camp who believes that Jimmy is perfectly capable of taking the team to the Super Bowl and winning it but that it will require his consistently best play to do so. There seem to be a couple of pretty good teams out there at the moment so this may well be a tougher get than their 2019 run. But, if they can pull it off, that will just make it that much sweeter. Go Niners!
Originally posted by eastie:
Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
beating inferior teams is fun in all, but he doesn't win when it counts due to his limitations and constant mistakes
i really hope he can change that this year, but it's year 6 now
That's a dumb comment. He has taken this team to TWO NFC Championship games in the last three years and one Superbowl. That's the very definition of winning when it counts. Your hate for the player is clouding what you see.
Originally posted by YACBros85:
Originally posted by 49ers81:
Originally posted by NYniner85:
Jimmy do work on SNF! I'll root for you as long as you are in SF. I will also be objective and know he's an avg starting NFL QB, which isn't horrible but the truth. Either way we got some pretty bad QB play across the league and guys starting that have no business being starters. Jimmy is a starter.
when Trey comes back, I will root for him to succeed and understand it's a process. You don't wake up and magically become a great pocket passing QB. It will require reps and getting through all of it. Let's be objective about all of it and understand the process. I would think there's room for 49er fans to support both.
You see, this is where you keep getting yourself in trouble. You always claim you're just being objective about something which you assert is an "obvious" truth, which is that Jimmy is an average QB. That's you're opinion and you're entitled to it but that doesn't make it true. It is a common theme in this thread and, from the opposite side posted by others in the Lance thread. People keep mistaking their opinions for some hard truth and so they feel compelled to have to endlessly debate their point to convince everyone else that their opinion is the correct one, and everyone else is just too stupid to realize it, when in fact it's just your opinion.
It's like the hypocrisy of another poster in here who has been going on about how he and others don't REALLY dislike Jimmy, they are just offering valid "criticisms" of his play. Spending ten pages worth of posts arguing about whether or not a pass that Jimmy threw to Deebo against Chicago last year, that resulted in a TD that helped them win the game was a good pass or not. That's not just "criticism" that's pathological. Jimmy threw it, Deebo caught it, they scored a TD, who cares.
It's also like an idea, that is popular in here and is often echoed among some of the talking head class on TV, looking at you Dan Orlovsky, which claims that it's the defense and Kyle's scheme that are primarily responsible for the team's success and that Jimmy has virtually nothing to do with it and is just along for the ride. If that were true then just about any QB of average skill should be able to do it, but so far that hasn't been the case. They win with Jimmy and lose with everyone else. Does Jimmy have his shortcomings? Absolutely, but so far he has been the only one that has manged to keep the team competitive through the course of a whole season.
Now of course the hope with Lance is that he will have a higher ceiling than Jimmy in terms of his ability to attack down the field more frequently, which seems to be the only thing that some people in here care about. They will go on about how the threat of the deep ball puts more pressure on opposing defenses and forces them to defend the whole field and yadda, yadda, yadda. But if you read between the lines a bit you will usually find that they just think it's more "entertaining" to watch a QB throw the ball all around the field then the ground and pound, short passing game which seems to have been the team's philosophy for the past few year's. I will let guys like Jonnydel sort all of that out because he clearly has more insight on it.
The book on Lance has yet to be written. I think it is everyone's hope that he will turn out to be everything the team believed he could be when they drafted him, but he is still, clearly, a work in progress, People say that the conditions in the Chicago game were a big factor in that loss. Probably, but there was a game against Washington in 2019 where it was also pouring down rain and the team had five turnovers and yet they still found a way to win it with Jimmy at the helm.
Although it was a very limited sample size, the offense did not look particularly dynamic in the first couple of drives against Seattle. They were running the ball well but there was just something about it that seemed a bit off. It was pointed out by some analyst I was watching that on Deebo's long run on a read option Lance made the wrong read on that play and should have kept the ball himself. Deebo's skill turned what looked like a sure loss into a huge gain so it worked out, which I am cool with, but it was still, apparently the wrong call by Lance, which is just his inexperience, So now this whole experiment has been put on hold for another year, which is unfortunate in some ways but may allow for the short term benefit of the team being more competitive this year.
This whole situation is an odd one with a lot of competing narratives. Steve Young, who lost two straight NFC championship games as I recall because of ill timed picks, is telling anyone who will listen that Jimmy got "fired" from the job, which is hard to argue with. Dan Orlovsky, is telling anyone who will listen that Jimmy is just along for the ride and can't get the team over the hump. This from a guy who I don't think ever took his team to an NFL playoff game. However there is someone else out there, whose name escapes me for the moment, pointing out that one of the underlying dynamics at play here is that Lance was handed the job, because of his draft status, without the benefit of actually having earned it which is something that may have led to some of the recent talk being rumored to have come out of the locker room.
When Jimmy's status was still unclear as training camp approached and the team was saying, at least publicly, that they weren't going to release him I suggested that if that were the case they should just bring him back to camp and let he and Lance compete for the job and may the best man win. That would help ease any unspoken issues among the team about who should start and might have been beneficial in terms of Lance's development in terms of making him compete for a job that he had already planned on being his. I mean, if Lance is destined to be so much better than Jimmy than he shouldn't have had any problem beating him out in camp, right?
But that's not the way things worked out and now Jimmy is back as QB1 and we'll see how far he can take us. I am of the camp who believes that Jimmy is perfectly capable of taking the team to the Super Bowl and winning it but that it will require his consistently best play to do so. There seem to be a couple of pretty good teams out there at the moment so this may well be a tougher get than their 2019 run. But, if they can pull it off, that will just make it that much sweeter. Go Niners!
The issue for me is that when the run game gets shut down, so does the entire offense. Jimmy is great at converting 3rd downs and keeping drives alive when the run game is gaining positive yards. However, when the run game isn't working and he is asked to throw the ball 40 times the offense cannot put points on the board and we typically lose those games. Imo, its because Jimmy cannot beat teams over the top with his arm. No QB in the league throws 40+ short passes in a game and wins consistently. Defenses are too good, especially in the playoffs, to get beat one dimensionally.
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by eastie:
Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
beating inferior teams is fun in all, but he doesn't win when it counts due to his limitations and constant mistakes
i really hope he can change that this year, but it's year 6 now
That's a dumb comment. He has taken this team to TWO NFC Championship games in the last three years and one Superbowl. That's the very definition of winning when it counts. Your hate for the player is clouding what you see.
The way some folks feel about Jimmy is how I feel about Kyle. Be lucky we have him even if he is flawed. Except I think Kyle can improve since he's a young coach.
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by eastie:
Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
beating inferior teams is fun in all, but he doesn't win when it counts due to his limitations and constant mistakes
i really hope he can change that this year, but it's year 6 now
That's a dumb comment. He has taken this team to TWO NFC Championship games in the last three years and one Superbowl. That's the very definition of winning when it counts. Your hate for the player is clouding what you see.
The way some folks feel about Jimmy is how I feel about Kyle. Be lucky we have him even if he is flawed. Except I think Kyle can improve since he's a young coach.
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by jonnydel:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Ultimately this comes down to the delicate balance of recognizing Kyle is a control-freak within his offense, which shouldn't shock anyone, vs. trying to weed out how much control/freedom his QB (Jimmy) really has within it.
Jimmy's own quotes over the years give great insight into that. In fact, Kyle's own quotes saying Jimmy had a good game in post game interviews (when we as fans may think otherwise) gives more credence to Jimmy doing what he's instructed within the play designs.
Kyle's head is buried in his playbook and playsheet. This is who he is. He controls every aspect of the offensive personnel and how it operates. It's why we hired him!
But I have this sneaky suspicion Kyle is about to let go a tad and let Jimmy incorporate his own style and preference even more now. Less blind PA's, more receiving options out there, etc. We'll see!
Mike was the same way. Steve said he used to call him, Mike "go over it one more time" Shanahan because he would sit there and hammer in the exact way to react to each and every situation with Steve. They'd go through the play calls, this is the read vs this, this is the read vs this, this is the read vs this for 300 plays. They went through it twice the morning before the super bowl. Steve said it was like Rain man.
I don't understand how this makes a coach a control freak. Are there coaches that tell their QB, "if it's Cover2 do this and this, but if you don't want to then that's okay too".
Pass plays have adjustments and progressions and reads built into them. There are route conversions by the WRs, hot routes where if it's a blitz then adjust the play accordingly.
I'll let you guys get into the details but it sure sounds like QB's are given varying degrees of "control" within their offenses. Some spread offenses are driven by the QB, so-to-speak, while other QB's are nothing but a video game controller for their HC/OC. We've seen that from Walsh to Roman to Shanahan. To the other side, you can have two QB's coached up within the same exact play design, differently. JT O'Picks-A-Lot speaks to that all the time. Sometimes that could be because of the strengths of the QB and sometimes it's dictated by the game situation (ahead or behind, strength of that defense, etc.). I think the Shanahan's are both at one extreme.
Perhaps a coach won't allow a QB to audible out of a playcall. That's the first thing I think of when I think 'control freak'. But when it comes to individual pass plays, there has to be structure to the play design so that every player is on the same page. Progressions tell the QB where to look versus what coverage. This is the NFL, there isn't a playcall that tells the QB "do whatever you want, this play diagram with progressions are just suggestions".
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by eastie:
Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
beating inferior teams is fun in all, but he doesn't win when it counts due to his limitations and constant mistakes
i really hope he can change that this year, but it's year 6 now
That's a dumb comment. He has taken this team to TWO NFC Championship games in the last three years and one Superbowl. That's the very definition of winning when it counts. Your hate for the player is clouding what you see.
The way some folks feel about Jimmy is how I feel about Kyle. Be lucky we have him even if he is flawed. Except I think Kyle can improve since he's a young coach.
+1
I will add that JG is still relatively young in terms of actual playing time. Both Kyle and Jimmy have time to improve. Some of the passes Garoppolo threw in this last game were not passes he has often attempted in previous games. (I'm thinking particularly about the 40-yard sideline throw to Aiyuk that went through his hands, and the 50/50 ball to Gray.) If Kyle will evolve and let Jimmy open up a bit more, perhaps they both reach their goal. One thing is sure, you can't keep doing the same thing over and over and expect the result to change.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Even playoff Jimmy and Kyle have both helped to get us up 2 scores in the Superbowl and NFCCG in the 4Q only to see the defense immediately collapse. That resulted in having to pass more in predictable sets...another clear weakness in the playoffs.
Now? That defense, esp. the secondary, seems much stronger and far more deep and the pressure rate is there again. The OL actually looks great out of the gate. If they prove to be a top unit, these two issues plus an improved ST puts both Kyle and Jimmy in the best position to deliver when it matters most and finally close these games out...like we just saw in the 9 minute drive against Seattle after a momentum shift (and being up 2 scores).
Originally posted by 49ers81:
You see, this is where you keep getting yourself in trouble. You always claim you're just being objective about something which you assert is an "obvious" truth, which is that Jimmy is an average QB. That's you're opinion and you're entitled to it but that doesn't make it true. It is a common theme in this thread and, from the opposite side posted by others in the Lance thread. People keep mistaking their opinions for some hard truth and so they feel compelled to have to endlessly debate their point to convince everyone else that their opinion is the correct one, and everyone else is just too stupid to realize it, when in fact it's just your opinion.
It's like the hypocrisy of another poster in here who has been going on about how he and others don't REALLY dislike Jimmy, they are just offering valid "criticisms" of his play. Spending ten pages worth of posts arguing about whether or not a pass that Jimmy threw to Deebo against Chicago last year, that resulted in a TD that helped them win the game was a good pass or not. That's not just "criticism" that's pathological. Jimmy threw it, Deebo caught it, they scored a TD, who cares.
It's also like an idea, that is popular in here and is often echoed among some of the talking head class on TV, looking at you Dan Orlovsky, which claims that it's the defense and Kyle's scheme that are primarily responsible for the team's success and that Jimmy has virtually nothing to do with it and is just along for the ride. If that were true then just about any QB of average skill should be able to do it, but so far that hasn't been the case. They win with Jimmy and lose with everyone else. Does Jimmy have his shortcomings? Absolutely, but so far he has been the only one that has manged to keep the team competitive through the course of a whole season.
Now of course the hope with Lance is that he will have a higher ceiling than Jimmy in terms of his ability to attack down the field more frequently, which seems to be the only thing that some people in here care about. They will go on about how the threat of the deep ball puts more pressure on opposing defenses and forces them to defend the whole field and yadda, yadda, yadda. But if you read between the lines a bit you will usually find that they just think it's more "entertaining" to watch a QB throw the ball all around the field then the ground and pound, short passing game which seems to have been the team's philosophy for the past few year's. I will let guys like Jonnydel sort all of that out because he clearly has more insight on it.
The book on Lance has yet to be written. I think it is everyone's hope that he will turn out to be everything the team believed he could be when they drafted him, but he is still, clearly, a work in progress, People say that the conditions in the Chicago game were a big factor in that loss. Probably, but there was a game against Washington in 2019 where it was also pouring down rain and the team had five turnovers and yet they still found a way to win it with Jimmy at the helm.
Although it was a very limited sample size, the offense did not look particularly dynamic in the first couple of drives against Seattle. They were running the ball well but there was just something about it that seemed a bit off. It was pointed out by some analyst I was watching that on Deebo's long run on a read option Lance made the wrong read on that play and should have kept the ball himself. Deebo's skill turned what looked like a sure loss into a huge gain so it worked out, which I am cool with, but it was still, apparently the wrong call by Lance, which is just his inexperience, So now this whole experiment has been put on hold for another year, which is unfortunate in some ways but may allow for the short term benefit of the team being more competitive this year.
This whole situation is an odd one with a lot of competing narratives. Steve Young, who lost two straight NFC championship games as I recall because of ill timed picks, is telling anyone who will listen that Jimmy got "fired" from the job, which is hard to argue with. Dan Orlovsky, is telling anyone who will listen that Jimmy is just along for the ride and can't get the team over the hump. This from a guy who I don't think ever took his team to an NFL playoff game. However there is someone else out there, whose name escapes me for the moment, pointing out that one of the underlying dynamics at play here is that Lance was handed the job, because of his draft status, without the benefit of actually having earned it which is something that may have led to some of the recent talk being rumored to have come out of the locker room.
When Jimmy's status was still unclear as training camp approached and the team was saying, at least publicly, that they weren't going to release him I suggested that if that were the case they should just bring him back to camp and let he and Lance compete for the job and may the best man win. That would help ease any unspoken issues among the team about who should start and might have been beneficial in terms of Lance's development in terms of making him compete for a job that he had already planned on being his. I mean, if Lance is destined to be so much better than Jimmy than he shouldn't have had any problem beating him out in camp, right?
But that's not the way things worked out and now Jimmy is back as QB1 and we'll see how far he can take us. I am of the camp who believes that Jimmy is perfectly capable of taking the team to the Super Bowl and winning it but that it will require his consistently best play to do so. There seem to be a couple of pretty good teams out there at the moment so this may well be a tougher get than their 2019 run. But, if they can pull it off, that will just make it that much sweeter. Go Niners!
