Originally posted by 49ers81:
Originally posted by 9ers4eva:
Originally posted by Waterbear:
Silky,
While I don't have a problem with anyone calling out NY for that statement. I think the statement is pretty fair if it's a comment about the past, if it's for this season, yes it's entirety possible Jimmy elevates his game to be considered elite, so you could make the argument that it's not being objective in the present.
My problem is that the poster who called NY out makes the exact same mistake that he claims NY did. He contributes to definitive claims about Trey, and ignores the egregious ones like Trey's a bust, Trey wouldn't have made the playoffs, and then simultaneously he's the king of fairness for Jimmy. It's so incredibly hypocritical and yet people gobble that s**t up like it's fair and reasonable.
Can we just stop making "factual" claims that we cannot prove? I will indeed call out posters who make claims that Trey would have played better than Jimmy going forward, and all while knowing how many posters will claim it's a fact Jimmy will perform better than Trey. You cannot prove either of those statements. And yet only one is socially acceptable on this board.
Absolutely. The reality is there is no basis for anyone saying they know how Trey would play as there is not a large enough sample. It's the definition of an unknown.
Jimmy is not an unknown. There is lots of data. It's not being a "hater" to question can he be better than he has been.
I want Jimmy to play better. I also want Trey to succeed when it's his turn. It's how every 9er fan should be feeling.
I have never said or suggested that I have any idea how Lance will turn out and in fact have gone out of my way to always say that I hope he turns out to be everything the team envisioned when they drafted him As I said above, his story remains to be written. For the other poster to suggest there is some kind of equivalency to my not defending Lance against people who are claiming he is a bust and my willingness to call out others for claiming that their opinions about Jimmy represent some sort of undeniable truth is just misguided.
Jimmy has a pretty large body of work on which he can be judged and people have formed whatever opinions they have about him by now. But the fact is that they remain just opinions with the truth probably lying somewhere in the middle. The irony of all this is that, in essence, the criticisms of the people who like to come in here and diss Jimmy all the time are probably not all that different from the criticisms of the people who support him which are that he doesn't throw a consistently accurate deep ball and that he has a way of throwing picks where you're just not sure what it is he is seeing. The only real difference is that there are people who think those inconsistencies make him a "bad' QB where I look at those very same inconsistencies and say that they are what keeps him from being a really good QB. It really just seems to boil down to a matter of perception.
On the other hand Lance remains pretty much of an unknown quantity. i actually don't have much of an opinion about him one way or the other and don't feel I need to go out of my way to defend him against people who, for whatever reason, have already decided he wasn't worth what they gave up to get him. Some people clearly have an issue with him which I don't quite get but he has plenty of others in here to carry that water for him, he doesn't need me for that.
I think where people get confused is in my derision for the stupid arguments that are often used to attack Jimmy's game, like IAY and TOWP and for the kind of over the top response to Lance's being drafted. "Oh, he's going to be the best at this and he is going to be elite at that", without the benefit of, well you know, having actually seen him play a down in the NFL. I mean there's nothing wrong with a little enthusiasm but that was kind of off the charts. And that's all I have to say on that topic.
"For the other poster to suggest there is some kind of equivalency to my not defending Lance against people who are claiming he is a bust and my willingness to call out others for claiming that their opinions about Jimmy represent some sort of undeniable truth is just misguided."
If you can't apply the same rules to both QBs, how can you honestly say you're seeking fairness? It is very hypocritical to me. Especially since you post one of these Jimmy anti-hate essays every so often, but have nothing to say in regards to unfair criticism of Lance. That's why I specifically am calling you out, because you're always one of the loudest in expressing you feel the hate for Jimmy is unwarranted.
"Some people clearly have an issue with him which I don't quite get but he has plenty of others in here to carry that water for him, he doesn't need me for that."
Yes because Jimmy who's had many more years as our starting QB and won many important games for this franchise, has a real lack of supporters on this forum.
You acknowledge you don't treat both QBs equally (in terms of what you decide actively defend) and your reasoning is that there's enough supporters for Lance that you don't have to? Again. That speaks for itself.
Listen, we could go back and forth like we've done in the past about this. I've taken a jab at you, so feel free to do the same to me if you like. I'm not perfect, I have my biases like anyone else, and I have made hypocritical posts before. But I also admit my mistakes quite often and strive to be as fair as I can. Ultimately, the only thing that matters are rules that we can apply to both QBs. For example:
1. It's not fair to Jimmy if/when he fails this season, to make a claim that Lance would have performed better. On the flipside, its also not fair to Trey to make those same types of claims about how Jimmy would/is playing better than Trey. This should be understood by both sides. And yet you have everyone from the webzones biggest trolls to respected posters and mods making this mistake. This is why I cringed last year when people made claims that Trey would beat out Jimmy or play better than him if given the chance, and I also cringed at the people who said we would have wasted the season starting him. NO ONE KNOWS. It's all speculation. You can have your opinions but as you said to NY, you can't represent that opinion as "fact".
2. The sole act of posting negative film is not and should not be considered hate, for either QB. If you want to criticize the overall use of context (or lack there of) with those negative videos...I think that's completely fair to do just that. Not only fair, but perfectly logical. But to continue to act like the posting and discussion of negative clips is an example for the bias against Jimmy (or Trey), is so incredibly backwards I don't know where to begin. This is a football forum. I feel like at the very least, we should be allowed to discuss football. Every time a positive video gets posted, most posters make positive comments and people move on. Not always, but most of the time. When negative film gets posted, everyone usually disagrees on what to take from it. That's where the conversations become interesting to me when they're respectful. Instantly calling those posts "Jimmy hate" or "Trey hate" detracts from those respectful disagreements. Respectful disagreements are exactly what this forum should be striving for.
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