Jimmy Garoppolo, QB, Los Angeles Rams

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
what nonsense, you saw the evidence, he didn't participate in the 2022 offseason, that's evidence. he didn't do the 2023 offseason, that's evidence. i can point to scars he has, that's evidence.

That's just evidence he was injured during the offseason and had been injured in the past. It's not evidence of any depreciation in skill, especially compared to the last few seasons. If you want to say the ACL cost him a level of mobility he had prior to 18, ok. But there isn't any real evidence to suggest he isn't capable of physically performing at the position any differently than he had in the last few years. Certainly nothing that's being presented in this argument. He didn't get benched because of physical shortcomings.

Guys get old, relative to their contact, injuries, hits and surg. I don't think Jamal Adams is who he was. Dude has hit so many ppl, google Jamal Adams fingers. Just not for the squeamish.

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
Anyone who is saying this, or claiming he is washed up, is 100% making excuses for him. Did you watch his games at all? Velocity of passes were normal. Strength of arm was normal. Footspeed was normal. Mobility was normal. (And when I say normal, I mean the same as it has been the past few years).

His problem clearly was not that his skills were eroding. He was making the exact same mistakes he made as a 49er, just at a much higher frequency.

I think you don't appreciate the impact major injuries and the surg they require has on a guy. Colts cut Shaq Leonard, guy went from All Pro to pretty darn washed. Dalvin Cook washed up, after his shoulder was very jacked and a lot of surg. Injuries took a toll on these guys.

Yes, Faithful. You have tried to push this narrative all season long but have yet to provide any evidence (or even hints of) why what you are saying is true. Everything you are saying could be accurate in theory, but none of it is accurate in reality. If it was, you would see a clear deterioration of his skills. Any objective fan has not seen this. You are just making excuses for him, which I suppose has been par for the course the last 5 or so years.

what nonsense, you saw the evidence, he didn't participate in the 2022 offseason, that's evidence. he didn't do the 2023 offseason, that's evidence. i can point to scars he has, that's evidence.

that is not evidence of being broken down and washed up lol

This just reveals the absurdity of your position. In what world are literal scars not evidence of the beating you took?

His prob he always holds the ball and doesn't have a plan for what to do if the throw isn't on, he just gets the happy feet and eats punishment usually. It's not a recipe for a long career.

LOL

Textbook example of no reply indicating no counter argument

Dude you haven't responded once when I ask you to name a specific thing that makes Jimmy washed up. Not a one. So don't come at me saying I don't have a counter. All of your replies have been narrative filled fluff.

I am responding with real data, actual real world events, you are doing LOL with no counter argument. The insanity of having to try and convince ppl that A) JG is brittle and B) major injuries over and over = no bueno

shouldn't be this hard folks, yet here we are
we all know how he plays, he holds the football, he doesn't throw it away, even vs KC he elected not to take the boundary, that stuff has consequences..
I've been saying for years, he's gonna shorten his career with that stuff, sometimes the best play is ball away, no contact

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
what nonsense, you saw the evidence, he didn't participate in the 2022 offseason, that's evidence. he didn't do the 2023 offseason, that's evidence. i can point to scars he has, that's evidence.

That's just evidence he was injured during the offseason and had been injured in the past. It's not evidence of any depreciation in skill, especially compared to the last few seasons. If you want to say the ACL cost him a level of mobility he had prior to 18, ok. But there isn't any real evidence to suggest he isn't capable of physically performing at the position any differently than he had in the last few years. Certainly nothing that's being presented in this argument. He didn't get benched because of physical shortcomings.

I'd say this is a great post, but this is really just common sense that almost everyone in this thread understands.

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
Guys get old, relative to their contact, injuries, hits and surg. I don't think Jamal Adams is who he was. Dude has hit so many ppl, google Jamal Adams fingers. Just not for the squeamish.

You can actually see physical differences in someone like Adam's play when they are on the field, especially in the context of the position they play. It's like comparing a running back to a QB, lol. Until there is some kind of evidence presented that Jimmy is physically lacking something he had in the last few years, this point is completely unsupported. He still has the same ability to move (again post '18), the same quick release, hasn't 'lost his fastball'… his poor play is mental, as it always has been.

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
Anyone who is saying this, or claiming he is washed up, is 100% making excuses for him. Did you watch his games at all? Velocity of passes were normal. Strength of arm was normal. Footspeed was normal. Mobility was normal. (And when I say normal, I mean the same as it has been the past few years).

His problem clearly was not that his skills were eroding. He was making the exact same mistakes he made as a 49er, just at a much higher frequency.

I think you don't appreciate the impact major injuries and the surg they require has on a guy. Colts cut Shaq Leonard, guy went from All Pro to pretty darn washed. Dalvin Cook washed up, after his shoulder was very jacked and a lot of surg. Injuries took a toll on these guys.

Yes, Faithful. You have tried to push this narrative all season long but have yet to provide any evidence (or even hints of) why what you are saying is true. Everything you are saying could be accurate in theory, but none of it is accurate in reality. If it was, you would see a clear deterioration of his skills. Any objective fan has not seen this. You are just making excuses for him, which I suppose has been par for the course the last 5 or so years.

what nonsense, you saw the evidence, he didn't participate in the 2022 offseason, that's evidence. he didn't do the 2023 offseason, that's evidence. i can point to scars he has, that's evidence.

that is not evidence of being broken down and washed up lol

This just reveals the absurdity of your position. In what world are literal scars not evidence of the beating you took?

His prob he always holds the ball and doesn't have a plan for what to do if the throw isn't on, he just gets the happy feet and eats punishment usually. It's not a recipe for a long career.

LOL

Textbook example of no reply indicating no counter argument

Dude you haven't responded once when I ask you to name a specific thing that makes Jimmy washed up. Not a one. So don't come at me saying I don't have a counter. All of your replies have been narrative filled fluff.

I am responding with real data, actual real world events, you are doing LOL with no counter argument. The insanity of having to try and convince ppl that A) JG is brittle and B) major injuries over and over = no bueno

shouldn't be this hard folks, yet here we are
we all know how he plays, he holds the football, he doesn't throw it away, even vs KC he elected not to take the boundary, that stuff has consequences..
I've been saying for years, he's gonna shorten his career with that stuff, sometimes the best play is ball away, no contact

You absolutely did not now, or anytime anyone has ever asked you to specifically name the skills which have deteriorated since the end of last season.

LOL at real data.

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
Anyone who is saying this, or claiming he is washed up, is 100% making excuses for him. Did you watch his games at all? Velocity of passes were normal. Strength of arm was normal. Footspeed was normal. Mobility was normal. (And when I say normal, I mean the same as it has been the past few years).

His problem clearly was not that his skills were eroding. He was making the exact same mistakes he made as a 49er, just at a much higher frequency.

I think you don't appreciate the impact major injuries and the surg they require has on a guy. Colts cut Shaq Leonard, guy went from All Pro to pretty darn washed. Dalvin Cook washed up, after his shoulder was very jacked and a lot of surg. Injuries took a toll on these guys.

Yes, Faithful. You have tried to push this narrative all season long but have yet to provide any evidence (or even hints of) why what you are saying is true. Everything you are saying could be accurate in theory, but none of it is accurate in reality. If it was, you would see a clear deterioration of his skills. Any objective fan has not seen this. You are just making excuses for him, which I suppose has been par for the course the last 5 or so years.

what nonsense, you saw the evidence, he didn't participate in the 2022 offseason, that's evidence. he didn't do the 2023 offseason, that's evidence. i can point to scars he has, that's evidence.

that is not evidence of being broken down and washed up lol

This just reveals the absurdity of your position. In what world are literal scars not evidence of the beating you took?

His prob he always holds the ball and doesn't have a plan for what to do if the throw isn't on, he just gets the happy feet and eats punishment usually. It's not a recipe for a long career.

LOL

Textbook example of no reply indicating no counter argument

Dude you haven't responded once when I ask you to name a specific thing that makes Jimmy washed up. Not a one. So don't come at me saying I don't have a counter. All of your replies have been narrative filled fluff.

I am responding with real data, actual real world events, you are doing LOL with no counter argument. The insanity of having to try and convince ppl that A) JG is brittle and B) major injuries over and over = no bueno

shouldn't be this hard folks, yet here we are
we all know how he plays, he holds the football, he doesn't throw it away, even vs KC he elected not to take the boundary, that stuff has consequences..
I've been saying for years, he's gonna shorten his career with that stuff, sometimes the best play is ball away, no contact

You absolutely did not now, or anytime anyone has ever asked you to specifically name the skills which have deteriorated since the end of last season.

LOL at real data.

It's an unrealistic ask. Show me some data on Gore getting washed. I mean he clearly got washed. The YPC, his age, and common sense tell you that. Yet where's the data, SWH. Let's see the data in terms of his speed, change of direction, etc. I challenge you to find it. Being washed is the eye test and common sense. Dalvin Cook is washed. Jamal isn't who he was. JG is washed. Russ is to a degree washed. Where is your data?

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
It's an unrealistic ask. Show me some data on Gore getting washed. I mean he clearly got washed. The YPC, his age, and common sense tell you that. Yet where's the data, SWH. Let's see the data in terms of his speed, change of direction, etc. I challenge you to find it. Being washed is the eye test and common sense. Dalvin Cook is washed. Jamal isn't who he was. JG is washed. Russ is to a degree washed. Where is your data?

Im not the one claiming I have "data."

With Gore, it was incredibly easy to identify he wasn't the same. His burst through the line wasn't the same. His top end speed, while never the strength of his game, was clearly slower. It took him longer to get up to his top speed.

Are we really doing this? It was super easy to tell Gore was losing it. You STILL cannot identify things that showed Jimmy was losing it.

The difference between all the players you mentioned and Jimmy is that YOU are the only one who is claiming that Jimmy is washed. And when the multiple people challenged you about it, you mention surgeries, injuries and lack of an offseason rather than actually talking about what it is he does worse.

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
It's an unrealistic ask. Show me some data on Gore getting washed. I mean he clearly got washed. The YPC, his age, and common sense tell you that. Yet where's the data, SWH. Let's see the data in terms of his speed, change of direction, etc. I challenge you to find it. Being washed is the eye test and common sense. Dalvin Cook is washed. Jamal isn't who he was. JG is washed. Russ is to a degree washed. Where is your data?

Im not the one claiming I have "data."

With Gore, it was incredibly easy to identify he wasn't the same. His burst through the line wasn't the same. His top end speed, while never the strength of his game, was clearly slower. It took him longer to get up to his top speed.

Are we really doing this? It was super easy to tell Gore was losing it. You STILL cannot identify things that showed Jimmy was losing it.

The difference between all the players you mentioned and Jimmy is that YOU are the only one who is claiming that Jimmy is washed. And when the multiple people challenged you about it, you mention surgeries, injuries and lack of an offseason rather than actually talking about what it is he does worse.

It exposes how nonsensical an ask it is. If you want me to get data, surely you can do the same. Or do you admit, it's not from data as you claim, it's more from common sense / eye test. You have no data.

The market speaks volumes, he was worth a round 2 (2x), $137m, $71m, etc. If you are right, and he's the same now as he was, then his valuation should remain the same. I say you are essentially already demonstrated wrong. His value clearly fluctuates over time, $137m is a big difference from $71m, particularly when you factor $137m was a then record, you would have to go up to like $400m today. So contracts going up, and JGs value going down. Easy answer, he's not as good as he once was. I think in FA now he would get a lot less than $71m, would he even get an offer? That's him being washed.

He did well in NE with McD, that's where you take the L thinking it's simply a product of being with Shanny. Shanny had a lot of QBs who couldn't do half of what JG did. But those days are over..

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
It's an unrealistic ask. Show me some data on Gore getting washed. I mean he clearly got washed. The YPC, his age, and common sense tell you that. Yet where's the data, SWH. Let's see the data in terms of his speed, change of direction, etc. I challenge you to find it. Being washed is the eye test and common sense. Dalvin Cook is washed. Jamal isn't who he was. JG is washed. Russ is to a degree washed. Where is your data?

Im not the one claiming I have "data."

With Gore, it was incredibly easy to identify he wasn't the same. His burst through the line wasn't the same. His top end speed, while never the strength of his game, was clearly slower. It took him longer to get up to his top speed.

Are we really doing this? It was super easy to tell Gore was losing it. You STILL cannot identify things that showed Jimmy was losing it.

Are you really asking if we're really doing this??? It's faithful we're talking about....

Originally posted by Waterbear:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
It's an unrealistic ask. Show me some data on Gore getting washed. I mean he clearly got washed. The YPC, his age, and common sense tell you that. Yet where's the data, SWH. Let's see the data in terms of his speed, change of direction, etc. I challenge you to find it. Being washed is the eye test and common sense. Dalvin Cook is washed. Jamal isn't who he was. JG is washed. Russ is to a degree washed. Where is your data?

Im not the one claiming I have "data."

With Gore, it was incredibly easy to identify he wasn't the same. His burst through the line wasn't the same. His top end speed, while never the strength of his game, was clearly slower. It took him longer to get up to his top speed.

Are we really doing this? It was super easy to tell Gore was losing it. You STILL cannot identify things that showed Jimmy was losing it.

Are you really asking if we're really doing this??? It's faithful we're talking about....

for 124 more pages, it's on

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
It exposes how nonsensical an ask it is. If you want me to get data, surely you can do the same. Or do you admit, it's not from data as you claim, it's more from common sense / eye test. You have no data.

The market speaks volumes, he was worth a round 2 (2x), $137m, $71m, etc. If you are right, and he's the same now as he was, then his valuation should remain the same. I say you are essentially already demonstrated wrong. His value clearly fluctuates over time, $137m is a big difference from $71m, particularly when you factor $137m was a then record, you would have to go up to like $400m today. So contracts going up, and JGs value going down. Easy answer, he's not as good as he once was. I think in FA now he would get a lot less than $71m, would he even get an offer? That's him being washed.

He did well in NE with McD, that's where you take the L thinking it's simply a product of being with Shanny. Shanny had a lot of QBs who couldn't do half of what JG did. But those days are over..

Lol. He started two games. Had less than 100 pass attempts across his entire Patriots tenure. He was a virtual unknown beyond the fact that he was a decent prospect and had tutored in the best situation in the NFL.

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
It exposes how nonsensical an ask it is. If you want me to get data, surely you can do the same. Or do you admit, it's not from data as you claim, it's more from common sense / eye test. You have no data.

The market speaks volumes, he was worth a round 2 (2x), $137m, $71m, etc. If you are right, and he's the same now as he was, then his valuation should remain the same. I say you are essentially already demonstrated wrong. His value clearly fluctuates over time, $137m is a big difference from $71m, particularly when you factor $137m was a then record, you would have to go up to like $400m today. So contracts going up, and JGs value going down. Easy answer, he's not as good as he once was. I think in FA now he would get a lot less than $71m, would he even get an offer? That's him being washed.

He did well in NE with McD, that's where you take the L thinking it's simply a product of being with Shanny. Shanny had a lot of QBs who couldn't do half of what JG did. But those days are over..

Lol. He started two games. Had less than 100 pass attempts across his entire Patriots tenure. He was a virtual unknown beyond the fact that he was a decent prospect and had tutored in the best situation in the NFL.

We are talking 94 attempts in NE and 168 in LV, it's fairly small sample in both
106.2 rating in NE
78.1 in Vegas
QBR in 2016 is 87.5 - this is the deflategate year, and he was opening day starter, it's his highest career QBR

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
It exposes how nonsensical an ask it is. If you want me to get data, surely you can do the same. Or do you admit, it's not from data as you claim, it's more from common sense / eye test. You have no data.

The market speaks volumes, he was worth a round 2 (2x), $137m, $71m, etc. If you are right, and he's the same now as he was, then his valuation should remain the same. I say you are essentially already demonstrated wrong. His value clearly fluctuates over time, $137m is a big difference from $71m, particularly when you factor $137m was a then record, you would have to go up to like $400m today. So contracts going up, and JGs value going down. Easy answer, he's not as good as he once was. I think in FA now he would get a lot less than $71m, would he even get an offer? That's him being washed.

He did well in NE with McD, that's where you take the L thinking it's simply a product of being with Shanny. Shanny had a lot of QBs who couldn't do half of what JG did. But those days are over..

Lol. He started two games. Had less than 100 pass attempts across his entire Patriots tenure. He was a virtual unknown beyond the fact that he was a decent prospect and had tutored in the best situation in the NFL.

We are talking 94 attempts in NE and 168 in LV, it's fairly small sample in both
106.2 rating in NE
78.1 in Vegas
QBR in 2016 is 87.5 - this is the deflategate year, and he was opening day starter, it's his highest career QBR

Faithful, is 168 attempts not a big enough sample size to accurately judge a player?

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
We are talking 94 attempts in NE and 168 in LV, it's fairly small sample in both
106.2 rating in NE
78.1 in Vegas
QBR in 2016 is 87.5 - this is the deflategate year, and he was opening day starter, it's his highest career QBR

It's two games man, lol. You could come up with many examples of extremely high QBR in a two game sample. He was traded for a 2nd round pick.

Couldn't care less about his passer rating, which is going to be heavily influenced by situation especially in a small sample. Of course it was better in a two game sample in NE, or over the course of his career in SF, than it was this season in LV. He's not as good as his team stats suggested in SF, but I also think he's better than his team stats suggest in LV.

Originally posted by Waterbear:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
It exposes how nonsensical an ask it is. If you want me to get data, surely you can do the same. Or do you admit, it's not from data as you claim, it's more from common sense / eye test. You have no data.

The market speaks volumes, he was worth a round 2 (2x), $137m, $71m, etc. If you are right, and he's the same now as he was, then his valuation should remain the same. I say you are essentially already demonstrated wrong. His value clearly fluctuates over time, $137m is a big difference from $71m, particularly when you factor $137m was a then record, you would have to go up to like $400m today. So contracts going up, and JGs value going down. Easy answer, he's not as good as he once was. I think in FA now he would get a lot less than $71m, would he even get an offer? That's him being washed.

He did well in NE with McD, that's where you take the L thinking it's simply a product of being with Shanny. Shanny had a lot of QBs who couldn't do half of what JG did. But those days are over..

Lol. He started two games. Had less than 100 pass attempts across his entire Patriots tenure. He was a virtual unknown beyond the fact that he was a decent prospect and had tutored in the best situation in the NFL.

We are talking 94 attempts in NE and 168 in LV, it's fairly small sample in both
106.2 rating in NE
78.1 in Vegas
QBR in 2016 is 87.5 - this is the deflategate year, and he was opening day starter, it's his highest career QBR

Faithful, is 168 attempts not a big enough sample size to accurately judge a player?

I don't think 94 vs 168 are that different. Let's not keep one and toss the other, you can view both, and say they are both fairly small samples
I think JG has been poor this year, he looks washed up to me, to say I am trying to say the sample is so small it can't be regarded would be not accurate of my position WB

I am saying to say 168 = valid and 94 is too small a sample, is bogus.