Jimmy Garoppolo, QB, Los Angeles Rams

Originally posted by MucketyMuck:
For 3 straight healthy years.... Every year Jimmy was healthy the team was extremely successful. The years he wasn't they weren't. I'm poking a huge hole in the insinuation(not you particularly but it's been said for years) that Jimmy was just a long for the ride. It is an anomaly for a bad QB to take a team to the NFCC and Superbowl one single time. It's more than an anomaly when it's every year the QB was healthy. Jimmy was the most successful QB this team has had since Young. Now Jimmy is far from Young... Far from it... but his success was no anomaly.

Well first of all I'm not arguing that he's a bad quarterback. He's an average one. And I'd also argue that being an average QB, and replacing one, is very hard.

He did good things here that were highlighted by brilliant coaching and playmaking around him. He 100 percent played a role in the team's success.

It's a bad argument to say when Jimmy wasn't healthy we didn't have as good an offense therefore Jimmy was really good. We replaced Jimmy in his absences with backup level players. Substandard QB's by NFL starter standards. If we replaced Jimmy with Derek Carr… now you're talking a legitimate comparison.

Beyond that, there are examples of QBs that are worse than Jimmy having similar team successes. I gave you one in Mark Sanchez. These situations are not common. Our team is that good outside of the QB position. Look at them now with a good one.

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:

Originally posted by MucketyMuck:
For 3 straight healthy years.... Every year Jimmy was healthy the team was extremely successful. The years he wasn't they weren't. I'm poking a huge hole in the insinuation(not you particularly but it's been said for years) that Jimmy was just a long for the ride. It is an anomaly for a bad QB to take a team to the NFCC and Superbowl one single time. It's more than an anomaly when it's every year the QB was healthy. Jimmy was the most successful QB this team has had since Young. Now Jimmy is far from Young... Far from it... but his success was no anomaly.

Well first of all I'm not arguing that he's a bad quarterback. He's an average one. And I'd also argue that being an average QB, and replacing one, is very hard.

He did good things here that were highlighted by brilliant coaching and playmaking around him. He 100 percent played a role in the team's success.

It's a bad argument to say when Jimmy wasn't healthy we didn't have as good an offense therefore Jimmy was really good. We replaced Jimmy in his absences with backup level players. Substandard QB's by NFL starter standards. If we replaced Jimmy with Derek Carr… now you're talking a legitimate comparison.

Beyond that, there are examples of QBs that are worse than Jimmy having similar team successes. I gave you one in Mark Sanchez. These situations are not common. Our team is that good outside of the QB position. Look at them now with a good one.

Ok... But what exactly makes Derek Care or say Kirk Cousins better than Jimmy? What exactly have they ever done? You say Jimmy is mediocre I would say he's right there with Derek Carr and Cousins based off of success. That's right there in the good QB range. Like this year, you look in the 10-15 range and what exactly can they do that Jimmy can't? Baker Mayfield? Jordan Love? Fields? Russel? Geno? Based off a few Google searches these guy are 10-15. Jimmy imo is better than most these guys if consistently healthy.

Originally posted by MucketyMuck:
Ok... But what exactly makes Derek Care or say Kirk Cousins better than Jimmy?

Things that show up on film. All 3 players in their prime and there's no question about who's #3.

Originally posted by MucketyMuck:
Ok... But what exactly makes Derek Care or say Kirk Cousins better than Jimmy? What exactly have they ever done? You say Jimmy is mediocre I would say he's right there with Derek Carr and Cousins based off of success. That's right there in the good QB range. Like this year, you look in the 10-15 range and what exactly can they do that Jimmy can't? Baker Mayfield? Jordan Love? Fields? Russel? Geno? Based off a few Google searches these guy are 10-15. Jimmy imo is better than most these guys if consistently healthy.

Cousins sees the field better, is a more accurate passer, is capable of reading defenses pre and post snap much better than Jimmy, and has a better arm. He has outproduced Jimmy in worse situations for the bulk of his career.

That said, I don't think Cousins is significantly better than him. Cousins has been a top 10/fringe top 10 guy for the bulk of his career. I'd say Jimmy is in the 15-20 range for the bulk of his.

Carr and Jimmy, go ahead and flip a coin. I'd only argue that Carr had a better peak, which didn't last very long.

One issue I have with your point here is that you say your argument is based off 'success'. What does that actually mean? Because outside of team success both of those guys have better production (at least peak production for Carr) and have more individual accolades while playing in clearly worse environments for the bulk of their time.

As far as the other QB's you rattled off in the post… I'd take Jimmy over all of them except for Russ (who was clearly better) and possibly Love (who is basically a talented unknown).

None of those guys (Geno, Love, Baker, Fields or Russ) are top 10-15 QBs currently IMO.

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:

Originally posted by MucketyMuck:
Ok... But what exactly makes Derek Care or say Kirk Cousins better than Jimmy? What exactly have they ever done? You say Jimmy is mediocre I would say he's right there with Derek Carr and Cousins based off of success. That's right there in the good QB range. Like this year, you look in the 10-15 range and what exactly can they do that Jimmy can't? Baker Mayfield? Jordan Love? Fields? Russel? Geno? Based off a few Google searches these guy are 10-15. Jimmy imo is better than most these guys if consistently healthy.

Cousins sees the field better, is a more accurate passer, is capable of reading defenses pre and post snap much better than Jimmy, and has a better arm. He has outproduced Jimmy in worse situations for the bulk of his career.

That said, I don't think Cousins is significantly better than him. Cousins has been a top 10/fringe top 10 guy for the bulk of his career. I'd say Jimmy is in the 15-20 range for the bulk of his.

Carr and Jimmy, go ahead and flip a coin. I'd only argue that Carr had a better peak, which didn't last very long.

One issue I have with your point here is that you say your argument is based off 'success'. What does that actually mean? Because outside of team success both of those guys have better production (at least peak production for Carr) and have more individual accolades while playing in clearly worse environments for the bulk of their time.

As far as the other QB's you rattled off in the post… I'd take Jimmy over all of them except for Russ (who was clearly better) and possibly Love (who is basically a talented unknown).

None of those guys (Geno, Love, Baker, Fields or Russ) are top 10-15 QBs currently IMO.

Production in what exactly? Fantasy stats? What exactly has their "production" brought to the team exactly? Nothing... Literally nothing. To me, that nots production. What's production is things like leadership and the ability to match your team down the field when needed which what Jimmy was good at. He was never really blown out and continually kept his team within striking distance and most of the time(not the Super Bowl unfortunately) produced when it mattered. Jimmy could have the most infuriating 2-3 quarters but he usually found a way to get the points needed. Cousins and Carr could throw for 300 air yards but it was mostly meaningless.

Originally posted by MucketyMuck:
Production in what exactly? Fantasy stats? What exactly has their "production" brought to the team exactly? Nothing... Literally nothing. To me, that nots production. What's production is things like leadership and the ability to match your team down the field when needed which what Jimmy was good at. He was never really blown out and continually kept his team within striking distance and most of the time(not the Super Bowl unfortunately) produced when it mattered. Jimmy could have the most infuriating 2-3 quarters but he usually found a way to get the points needed. Cousins and Carr could throw for 300 air yards but it was mostly meaningless.

This is all team related success, lol. What does it tell you that Jimmy could play like s**t for 2-3 quarters and still be in position to lead the team to victory with a clutch drive? You simply can't play like s**t for 2-3 quarters and be in that position consistently on a less than stellar team.

Peyton Manning throws two picks… the Colts are f**ked. Brady throws two picks… and the Pats* elite defense and run game might still beat you.

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:

Originally posted by MucketyMuck:
Production in what exactly? Fantasy stats? What exactly has their "production" brought to the team exactly? Nothing... Literally nothing. To me, that nots production. What's production is things like leadership and the ability to match your team down the field when needed which what Jimmy was good at. He was never really blown out and continually kept his team within striking distance and most of the time(not the Super Bowl unfortunately) produced when it mattered. Jimmy could have the most infuriating 2-3 quarters but he usually found a way to get the points needed. Cousins and Carr could throw for 300 air yards but it was mostly meaningless.

This is all team related success, lol. What does it tell you that Jimmy could play like s**t for 2-3 quarters and still be in position to lead the team to victory with a clutch drive? You simply can't play like s**t for 2-3 quarters and be in that position consistently on a less than stellar team.

Peyton Manning throws two picks… the Colts are f**ked. Brady throws two picks… and the Pats* elite defense and run game might still beat you.

I see you ran from my question... Any QB throws two picks it's game over including Jimmy. Has Brock won a game throwing two picks despite our stellar defense? He's lost both games despite our defense holding the teams to 19 and 22 points. Jimmy has few games where he threw 2 picks and he lost most of those. One of his few losses which proves his impact.

And I've made this point ad nauseam and it baffles me that people don't understand it, but many QBs play pretty up and down all game. Especially guys like Cousins, Jimmy, and Carr. You guys act like they were spot on all game and have no weaknesses...Just Jimmy. Well they 100% do. They have every bit of weaknesses as Jimmy just im different areas.

Jimmy is the most successful QB of the bunch btw. It's not even slightly close. Cousins and Carr have very little if any success

Originally posted by MucketyMuck:
I see you ran from my question... Any QB throws two picks it's game over including Jimmy. Has Brock won a game throwing two picks despite our stellar defense? He's lost both games despite our defense holding the teams to 19 and 22 points. Jimmy has few games where he threw 2 picks and he lost most of those. One of his few losses which proves his impact.

And I've made this point ad nauseam and it baffles me that people don't understand it, but many QBs play pretty up and down all game. Especially guys like Cousins, Jimmy, and Carr. You guys act like they were spot on all game and have no weaknesses...Just Jimmy. Well they 100% do. They have every bit of weaknesses as Jimmy just im different areas.

I didn't run from any question. And you actually did in fact run from the reasons I said Cousins was better after you asked. You legitimately did not address it at all. You also didn't acknowledge the examples I provided of situations similar to what Jimmy was in across the recent past in the league.

Tom Brady won an AFC championship game against the Ravens, on the road, throwing two picks, lol. That's why I used the example. Aaron Rodgers won an NFC championship, on the road, throwing no TDs and 2 picks. His elite defense helped by scoring a TD and dominating the game. Joe Montana won an NFC championship throwing 3 interceptions. There are many more examples.

Look at the playoff game the 49ers played against the Vikings. Both QB's struggled. Jimmy threw a ridiculous interception and our coach said f**k this and just jammed the run down the Vikings throat over and over again for the win. Was that an option for the Vikings against our elite defense? Absolutely not. Could that Viking team beat the Packers completing less than 10 passes? Absolutely not.

Last year Cousins lost a playoff game in which he completed 80 percent of his balls, had multiple touchdowns and no picks, and almost 300 yards passing. You know why they lost? Because the Vikings defense couldn't stop the Daniel Jones led Giants offense. 1 punt for the entire game, lol. At home!

To your last point, of course QBs have up and down play. We're talking their play in general over very large samples (their careers).

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:

Originally posted by MucketyMuck:
I see you ran from my question... Any QB throws two picks it's game over including Jimmy. Has Brock won a game throwing two picks despite our stellar defense? He's lost both games despite our defense holding the teams to 19 and 22 points. Jimmy has few games where he threw 2 picks and he lost most of those. One of his few losses which proves his impact.

And I've made this point ad nauseam and it baffles me that people don't understand it, but many QBs play pretty up and down all game. Especially guys like Cousins, Jimmy, and Carr. You guys act like they were spot on all game and have no weaknesses...Just Jimmy. Well they 100% do. They have every bit of weaknesses as Jimmy just im different areas.

I didn't run from any question. And you actually did in fact run from the reasons I said Cousins was better after you asked. You legitimately did not address it at all. You also didn't acknowledge the examples I provided of situations similar to what Jimmy was in across the recent past in the league.

Tom Brady won an AFC championship game against the Ravens, on the road, throwing two picks, lol. That's why I used the example. Aaron Rodgers won an NFC championship, on the road, throwing no TDs and 2 picks. His elite defense helped by scoring a TD and dominating the game. Joe Montana won an NFC championship throwing 3 interceptions. There are many more examples.

Look at the playoff game the 49ers played against the Vikings. Both QB's struggled. Jimmy threw a ridiculous interception and our coach said f**k this and just jammed the run down the Vikings throat over and over again for the win. Was that an option for the Vikings against our elite defense? Absolutely not. Could that Viking team beat the Packers completing less than 10 passes? Absolutely not.

Last year Cousins lost a playoff game in which he completed 80 percent of his balls, had multiple touchdowns and no picks, and almost 300 yards passing. You know why they lost? Because the Vikings defense couldn't stop the Daniel Jones led Giants offense. 1 punt for the entire game, lol. At home!

To your last point, of course QBs have up and down play. We're talking their play in general over very large samples (their careers).

Cousins had every chance to win that game and failed. Proving your fantasy stats worthless. Literally worthless.

Originally posted by MucketyMuck:
Cousins had every chance to win that game and failed. Proving your fantasy stats worthless. Literally worthless.

What did you not understand about my post earlier where I said I wasn't judging them based on team stats?

I gave you reasons why Cousins is better. They are all over the film. He's more accurate, has a stronger arm, has better field vision, makes better reads. He's also more durable. You can pretend I didn't say this. But it's right there.

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:

Originally posted by MucketyMuck:
Cousins had every chance to win that game and failed. Proving your fantasy stats worthless. Literally worthless.

What did you not understand about my post earlier where I said I wasn't judging them based on team stats?

I gave you reasons why Cousins is better. They are all over the film. He's more accurate, has a stronger arm, has better field vision, makes better reads. He's also more durable. You can pretend I didn't say this. But it's right there.

Agree to disagree... Cousins has done nothing ever and has historically lost to good teams. He can light it up but that has never amounted to much success. I'd take Jimmy's game management and football IQ over a strong arm any day. I disagree about field vision and reads too. I think those two are the reason why one got to a SB and the other is something like 9-30(rough estimate but close) against winning teams.

Originally posted by MucketyMuck:
Agree to disagree... Cousins has done nothing ever and has historically lost to good teams. He can light it up but that has never amounted to much success. I'd take Jimmy's game management and football IQ over a strong arm any day. I disagree about field vision and reads too. I think those two are the reason why one got to a SB and the other is something like 9-30(rough estimate but close) against winning teams.

Jimmy's teams have had more success because Jimmy's teams have been way better. This isn't rocket science.

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:

Originally posted by MucketyMuck:
Agree to disagree... Cousins has done nothing ever and has historically lost to good teams. He can light it up but that has never amounted to much success. I'd take Jimmy's game management and football IQ over a strong arm any day. I disagree about field vision and reads too. I think those two are the reason why one got to a SB and the other is something like 9-30(rough estimate but close) against winning teams.

Jimmy's teams have had more success because Jimmy's teams have been way better. This isn't rocket science.

And Cousins has never ever had success in a single important metric. This isnt rocket science either. I'll take success over literally no success.

Originally posted by MucketyMuck:
And Cousins has never ever had success in a single important metric. This isnt rocket science either.

Umm, yes he has. Though I don't know what you think is an important metric. You seem to only be able to argue team success. There's nothing else there.

You should know your understanding is f**ked when you can use the same reasoning to argue Mark Sanchez was better than Tom Brady in 2010 and 11.

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
Realize your commentary on 2023, is based on less of a sample than 2016-2018. And you use it nonetheless. I am of the position you can use all the data, and you can preface with small sample size disclaimers. Certainly when SF is making the trade, they are using the data, and reviewing the film, what they have to go off of at least. If you have a game, you look at that game.

McD can do X's and O's. He cannot lead a team of men. So he's at best OC material imo.

I am actually basing my opinion on gameplay and film, and not the stats. I watched every one of Jimmy's games this year and there is no discernable physical difference in his play between this season and any other in his career. What is a constant is the same carelessness with the ball and hit and miss decision making that often results in turnovers. We were able to succeed with him by calling plays around his strengths and generally limiting his impact on the game in nearly every situation that we could. The Raiders didn't have that luxury.



He is the same Jimmy from a physical perspective. Same arm strength, quick release, mobility. All on display.



He is the same Jimmy from a mental perspective too.

In a small sample size you can have a set of games where you don't get punished for bad decision making or fundamentally questionable play at a position (see 17). You can also have a set of games where bad decision making and fundamentally questionable play leads to outlier poor statistics (see 18). The truth is between.

Either way, there's no actual evidence presented that he is now broken physically. There was obvious evidence for the other players you used in comparison.

Nice work SmokeyJoe.

The real way in which he was "broken" is that teams got tape on him and recognized that he predetermines way too many reads, which means disguised coverages timed right will get interceptions, and he loves throwing over the middle, which means those disguised coverages should be robber coverages most of the time.