Jimmy Garoppolo, QB, Los Angeles Rams

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
He is using other players who you can clearly see a difference on the field as comparisons, but theres nothing similar with them and Jimmy. He is using stats or "data" when there really isnt any statistic or data point that can back up his claims. Its been maddening for me to try to engage in a conversation with him about this over many months, and him refusing to answer the question presented (even though he claims he has answered this every time I asked).

Jimmy is no different this year than he was last year (arguably his best season as a professional) from a physical standpoint. If there was any evidence to support the contrary, we would have seen it.

I would push back on this pretty hard, clearly he was doing a lot better in 2016, 2017, and 2019, I would say 2021 also. QBR agrees on all but 2021. You, in my opinion, saw JG play with CMC and concluded that JG is playing his best ball. No he wasn't. He was getting a HOF caliber upgrade. Recall JG in 2022 vs DEN without CMC as an example...

just consider a 50 something QBR with our loaded 2022 team; vs a 80 something QBR with a bunch of no namers in 2017, there is not much comparison as to which was better

Yes, we know you push back on this. Because it doesn't support your baseless argument that Jimmy is washed now.

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
I mean it's really easy to destroy the JG Club argument that Jimmy "just wins." All you got to do is look at the Raiders.

If some particular people who are still under Jimmy's spell were to take off the JG Club glasses, they'll see our gameplans were funneled around Jimmy's weaknesses, and his job was to limit the game losing mistakes to one per game, which our defense was good enough to overcome.

But they won't. Because they know if they do they'll end up soiling their limited edition Mulberry silk Jimmy G underwear.

Jimmy is washed up because of injury now. He always has success otherwise.

come on here, he doesn't always have success, but this is the box we find certain ppl
5GR for instance, did his QB metrics and to my understanding came to the determination JG was QB12
ok, well if he was QB12, and he's the same now as he always was (y'alls argument, not mine), then teams will be beating down his door in the offseason right?
this is where you have a problem,

he's no longer QB12 or anything close, 5GR may have been close to it at one point, but players change. Dalvin Cook is no longer RB5, more like RB55. That happens. NFL is not for long.

Yup. I remember this. 5GR actually put a lot of time and effort into that which was great but he seems to disagree with himself now.

Jimmy is not washed btw... He's consistently injured. It's impossible to do anything when your QB can't even finish 5-6 games in a row.

Originally posted by MucketyMuck:
Lol this is called moving the goal post. And yes unlike you and fantasy stats I do thinks SB wins is a metric of success. You refuse to name what your metrics are besides stats. I have concrete things like wins, playoff wins, NFCC's, SB... You have reading a defense lol and stats.

I told you the exact basis I'm using for my comparison multiple times. Repeatedly told you its not based on stats. And I clearly understand your basis as well. It leads to some of the dumbest conclusions a fan can have about QB play, lol.

JFC.

Originally posted by MucketyMuck:
Jimmy is not washed btw... He's consistently injured. It's impossible to do anything when your QB can't even finish 5-6 games in a row.

Ok perfect. He's not washed. Why were the Raiders not having success and why was he benched.

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:

Originally posted by MucketyMuck:
Lol this is called moving the goal post. And yes unlike you and fantasy stats I do thinks SB wins is a metric of success. You refuse to name what your metrics are besides stats. I have concrete things like wins, playoff wins, NFCC's, SB... You have reading a defense lol and stats.

I told you the exact basis I'm using for my comparison multiple times. Repeatedly told you its not based on stats. And I clearly understand your basis as well. It leads to some of the dumbest conclusions a fan can have about QB play, lol.

JFC.

You used opinion based things like reading a field. I used factual things like playoff wins. Success within a team.

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
I mean it's really easy to destroy the JG Club argument that Jimmy "just wins." All you got to do is look at the Raiders.

If some particular people who are still under Jimmy's spell were to take off the JG Club glasses, they'll see our gameplans were funneled around Jimmy's weaknesses, and his job was to limit the game losing mistakes to one per game, which our defense was good enough to overcome.

But they won't. Because they know if they do they'll end up soiling their limited edition Mulberry silk Jimmy G underwear.

Jimmy is washed up because of injury now. He always has success otherwise.

come on here, he doesn't always have success, but this is the box we find certain ppl
5GR for instance, did his QB metrics and to my understanding came to the determination JG was QB12
ok, well if he was QB12, and he's the same now as he always was (y'alls argument, not mine), then teams will be beating down his door in the offseason right?
this is where you have a problem,

he's no longer QB12 or anything close, 5GR may have been close to it at one point, but players change. Dalvin Cook is no longer RB5, more like RB55. That happens. NFL is not for long.

(a) 12 isn't saying much, because that year there was a vast gulf between the top 7 or so and the next tier. FTR he was 13th in Total QBR that year.
(b) That was only one iteration of the metric. I think the lowest I got him was 15. Regardless, he was in the top half of the mid tier. For the record, there was an equally massive gulf between tier two and tier three.
(c) That was one season, and IMHO his best season.
(d) That metric's formula was based on one season of data. I now have four seasons of data so at some point I'll create a more reliable one. When I get off my ass. But without more data points, the correlation between stats and winning is not as strong.

Oh, and lastly, the only portion of that metric which differentiated between QB and WR contribution was air yards (and Jimmy G was actually pretty good that year with air yards). But it had no means of differentiating scheme.

Regardless, a ranking of 12 FIRMLY would have put Jimmy in TIER TWO that year, out of three tiers. I suspect when I redo this metric with more data points to more accurately design the mathematical formula, Brock is going to be NUMERO UNO and by a huge margin.

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
come on here, he doesn't always have success, but this is the box we find certain ppl
5GR for instance, did his QB metrics and to my understanding came to the determination JG was QB12
ok, well if he was QB12, and he's the same now as he always was (y'alls argument, not mine), then teams will be beating down his door in the offseason right?
this is where you have a problem,

he's no longer QB12 or anything close, 5GR may have been close to it at one point, but players change. Dalvin Cook is no longer RB5, more like RB55. That happens. NFL is not for long.

To be fair, I'm not 5GR. I remember reading his ranking at the time. Promise you I didn't agree that Jimmy was the 12th best QB in the league at that time, or really any other. Could he play like that in spurts… sure.

I could probably link you a poll I made on a different site from that same time period where I was surveying non Niner fan opinion on where he ranked. I think I had him about 18 at the time.

Originally posted by MucketyMuck:
You used opinion based things like reading a field. I used factual things like playoff wins. Success within a team.

Sweet. Now apply it to the Raiders.

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:

Originally posted by MucketyMuck:
Jimmy is not washed btw... He's consistently injured. It's impossible to do anything when your QB can't even finish 5-6 games in a row.

Ok perfect. He's not washed. Why were the Raiders not having success and why was he benched.

Jimmy has 3 wins before he was hurt then benched. I predicted 7-8 wins from 6 last year and I think he would've hit that. He was 3-4 when benched. They were on target to be more successful with him than Carr. Jimmy is not the answer there and they though AOC could be.

Originally posted by MucketyMuck:
Jimmy has 3 wins before he was hurt then benched. I predicted 7-8 wins from 6 last year and I think he would've hit that. He was 3-4 when benched. They were on target to be more successful with him than Carr. Jimmy is not the answer there and they though AOC could be.

I'm confused (not really). Your definition of success is playoff wins. You just said this. You also said Jimmy always has success when he's healthy.

Why wasn't your Raiders/Jimmy prediction including playoff wins and at least an AFC championship appearance? Jimmy was healthy. Jimmy always has success.

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:

Originally posted by MucketyMuck:
You used opinion based things like reading a field. I used factual things like playoff wins. Success within a team.

Sweet. Now apply it to the Raiders.

I just did. Raiders under Jimmy were on track to have a better record than with Carr. It's just in a smaller scale. Jimmy is not a franchise QB that will turn an organization around. He's a good QB but not a franchise QB.

Originally posted by MucketyMuck:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
I mean it's really easy to destroy the JG Club argument that Jimmy "just wins." All you got to do is look at the Raiders.

If some particular people who are still under Jimmy's spell were to take off the JG Club glasses, they'll see our gameplans were funneled around Jimmy's weaknesses, and his job was to limit the game losing mistakes to one per game, which our defense was good enough to overcome.

But they won't. Because they know if they do they'll end up soiling their limited edition Mulberry silk Jimmy G underwear.

Jimmy is washed up because of injury now. He always has success otherwise.

come on here, he doesn't always have success, but this is the box we find certain ppl
5GR for instance, did his QB metrics and to my understanding came to the determination JG was QB12
ok, well if he was QB12, and he's the same now as he always was (y'alls argument, not mine), then teams will be beating down his door in the offseason right?
this is where you have a problem,

he's no longer QB12 or anything close, 5GR may have been close to it at one point, but players change. Dalvin Cook is no longer RB5, more like RB55. That happens. NFL is not for long.

Yup. I remember this. 5GR actually put a lot of time and effort into that which was great but he seems to disagree with himself now.

I don't. You guys just don't appreciate what 12-15 meant. You think it means he was an elite QB. But the data clearly showed three distinct tiers of QBs, and there was a massive drop from one tier to the next (really it was four tiers, with the top three or so being even more detached from the rest of the top tier). I don't remember specifically what it was, but there were about 7 or 8 guys at the top, and HUGE drop, then about 12 or so guys, then another HUGE drop where the bottom tier guys lived.

Originally posted by MucketyMuck:
I just did. Raiders under Jimmy were on track to have a better record than with Carr. It's just in a smaller scale. Jimmy is not a franchise QB that will turn an organization around. He's a good QB but not a franchise QB.

Ok cool. Follow along now:

Why was your prediction for Jimmy's Raiders at 7-8 wins, while in San Francisco Jimmy repeatedly made the NFC championship? Why not AFC championship for the Raiders?

What's the difference?

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:

Originally posted by MucketyMuck:
Jimmy has 3 wins before he was hurt then benched. I predicted 7-8 wins from 6 last year and I think he would've hit that. He was 3-4 when benched. They were on target to be more successful with him than Carr. Jimmy is not the answer there and they though AOC could be.

I'm confused (not really). Your definition of success is playoff wins. You just said this. You also said Jimmy always has success when he's healthy.

Why wasn't your Raiders/Jimmy prediction including playoff wins and at least an AFC championship appearance? Jimmy was healthy. Jimmy always has success.

I would consider taking a 6 win team to potential playoff fight success. You are confused unfortunately. Improvement is also a metric to success. I didn't expect Jimmy to completely turn a franchise around.

Now you say Jimmy is a good QB then you spend all night making any positive about him you turn to a negative. Your motive is clear as day. Rag on Jimmy