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Originally posted by cciowa:Originally posted by Kolohe:As much as I would love that, it's not happening. I don't think the Raiders ever worked out a trade together? But if they did the most I'd trade is a 1st and 2nd round picks.
if we believe people here. we will spend a number one on a pass rusher so why wait that long to get one
Originally posted by JustinNiner:but you would be getting an all pro pass rusher, which is the most important position and biggest need on defense. It is not easy to pick out someone of Khalil's caliber in the draft and most likely wont happen if we get into the playoffs
I really do believe that we are a blue chip pass rusher and above average RG away from being a true SB contender. I have my eyes on us acquiring Yanda at some point of the season. He is on his last year and if the Ravens give the reins to Jackson at some point, no doubt they will fall into rebuild mode and start getting what they can older players
Originally posted by Fanaticofnfl:Originally posted by Hardcoreniner559:2 first round picks is something I doubt gruden would reject
If this is true than a trade would have most certainly happened by now.
Originally posted by NYniner85:Originally posted by Giedi:Just my opinion, but it's no accident that the 49er Dynasty was built on elite edge rushers like Fred and Charles. Defense wins super bowls, and we had two elite edge rushers for almost 19-ish years and that's why we had an almost 20 year playoff run and 5 super bowls with no losses. Elite edge rushers makes good defenses elite and operate at a dynasty level, not just playoff level, or a one and done super bowl levels like the Sea Chickens. I just think that's how important an edge rusher is, and ShanaLynch have stated that's who they are looking for, but their actions (so far - hoping for them to try to get Kalil) have been a bit disappointing. Again, I defer to you draft experts, but to me - trading basically 2 second round picks for Kalil isn't overvaluing him at all if what I've read on paper about him is true.
You're bringing up Haley and Dean from like 30 yrs ago...who's the HOF edge rushers that the patriots have had? Dynasties get built in a number of ways.
Throwing multiple 1sts and $100 million is not smart football, this team isn't a elite edge rusher from a SB.
Originally posted by crabman82:Originally posted by NYniner85:Originally posted by Giedi:Just my opinion, but it's no accident that the 49er Dynasty was built on elite edge rushers like Fred and Charles. Defense wins super bowls, and we had two elite edge rushers for almost 19-ish years and that's why we had an almost 20 year playoff run and 5 super bowls with no losses. Elite edge rushers makes good defenses elite and operate at a dynasty level, not just playoff level, or a one and done super bowl levels like the Sea Chickens. I just think that's how important an edge rusher is, and ShanaLynch have stated that's who they are looking for, but their actions (so far - hoping for them to try to get Kalil) have been a bit disappointing. Again, I defer to you draft experts, but to me - trading basically 2 second round picks for Kalil isn't overvaluing him at all if what I've read on paper about him is true.
You're bringing up Haley and Dean from like 30 yrs ago...who's the HOF edge rushers that the patriots have had? Dynasties get built in a number of ways.
Throwing multiple 1sts and $100 million is not smart football, this team isn't a elite edge rusher from a SB.
Well they've won 5 times. 3 with Willie McGinest and 1 with Chandler Jones. The former is the nfls all time leader in postseason sacks. I'd say 4 out of their 5 titles were won with elite edge rushers.
Originally posted by crabman82:Well they've won 5 times. 3 with Willie McGinest and 1 with Chandler Jones. The former is the nfls all time leader in postseason sacks. I'd say 4 out of their 5 titles were won with elite edge rushers.
Originally posted by NYniner85:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Just my opinion, but it's no accident that the 49er Dynasty was built on elite edge rushers like Fred and Charles. Defense wins super bowls, and we had two elite edge rushers for almost 19-ish years and that's why we had an almost 20 year playoff run and 5 super bowls with no losses. Elite edge rushers makes good defenses elite and operate at a dynasty level, not just playoff level, or a one and done super bowl levels like the Sea Chickens. I just think that's how important an edge rusher is, and ShanaLynch have stated that's who they are looking for, but their actions (so far - hoping for them to try to get Kalil) have been a bit disappointing. Again, I defer to you draft experts, but to me - trading basically 2 second round picks for Kalil isn't overvaluing him at all if what I've read on paper about him is true.
You're bringing up Haley and Dean from like 30 yrs ago...who's the HOF edge rushers that the patriots have had? Dynasties get built in a number of ways.
Throwing multiple 1sts and $100 million is not smart football, this team isn't a elite edge rusher from a SB.
Originally posted by 9ers4eva:
Tell Raiders the 2019 1st rounder is on the table. Let us know what you'd like to do.
I'd like to point out neither Fred Dean nor Charles Haley were traded for 2 1sts. Chandler Jones wasn't either.
"We couldn't find a reason why San Diego wanted to get rid of him," Studley said. "From my experience it was the best (in-season) trade ever." […]
"We rely on Fred to cause any number of things," Walsh told the Orlando Sentinel in 1984. "One, he can sack the quarterback. Two, he can hit the QB and cause a fumble. Three, he can force the quarterback into ... an interception or at least an incompletion."
http://www.wickedlocal.com/article/20080730/NEWS/307309952
Originally posted by Giedi:
I think Dynasties are built on franchise QB's and elite pass rushers. You had the Steelers, you had the Raiders, Dallas with Harvy Martin and Randy White, and somebody mentioned McGinest and Jones for the Pat's dynasty. Elite edge rushers are the second most valuable player after the QB in terms of player salary. The question is whether or not Kalil is worth 2 first round picks, and my point is - is it really 2 first round picks when the most probable spot for those picks would be in the 20th spot or lower? That's really not much better than two very high 2nd round picks in my opinion. I think ShanaLynch is right - get a franchise QB passer and then get an elite edge rusher that can stop the pass and knock down the opposing QB.
Originally posted by NYniner85:The ability to pass rush really changes the game dynamics.
Originally posted by Giedi:
I think Dynasties are built on franchise QB's and elite pass rushers. You had the Steelers, you had the Raiders, Dallas with Harvy Martin and Randy White, and somebody mentioned McGinest and Jones for the Pat's dynasty. Elite edge rushers are the second most valuable player after the QB in terms of player salary. The question is whether or not Kalil is worth 2 first round picks, and my point is - is it really 2 first round picks when the most probable spot for those picks would be in the 20th spot or lower? That's really not much better than two very high 2nd round picks in my opinion. I think ShanaLynch is right - get a franchise QB passer and then get an elite edge rusher that can stop the pass and knock down the opposing QB.
How is McGinest an elite edge rusher? I think people throw around the world elite wayyyyy too much. Yes, you need good pass rush no doubt (I was beating the table for one all draft season). NE did't have constant elite edge rushers. They won because of their QB and coaching period.
Also you can't conclude that those picks will be in the low 20s...we're a JG injury away from drafting top 5 imo. What happens if he gets hurt and our draft pick we moved was in place to draft a Nick Bosa? Nah,edge rushers are important but there is no way in hell a football player outside of a top end QB is worth the trade compensation people are talking about...it's a damn joke to even consider it.
People get all infatuated with names and don't really step back and look at everything. Mack is a stud but he helped the 23rd overall defense last yr. that's not worth two 1sts (and $100 million) it's just not.
Fans and media types alike heaped criticism on the New Orleans Saints for their decision at the 2018 NFL Draft to trade a pair of first-round picks (and a fifth-rounder) to move up to the 14th spot where they drafted Texas-San Antonio defensive end Marcus Davenport. Head coach Sean Payton defended the move by pointing out that, as a pass rusher, Davenport played at one of the league's premier positions — the kind of game-changer he couldn't find on the free agent market during the offseason.Also agree that they aren't cheap and that you will devote a significant amount of cap space to said elite edge rusher.
"One of the offseason targets was a pressure player and that might come as a guy who lines up inside, it might come from a player that lines up outside," Payton told the media at a May press conference. "But before we check that box we have to feel like he can affect the quarterback and in our league, there's a premium on a few different positions, one of them is that, one of them is a corner. We saw the quarterbacks and the tackles. We can't find those guys when the season is over with and we start free agency. They're generally players you have to draft.
https://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2018/5/11/17326722/nfl-free-agent-pass-rusher-position-salary
"If the most important person on the field is the quarterback, the second-most important person must be the guy who gets to the quarterback," said Chuck Smith, a former all-pro defensive end and founder of Chuck Smith Training Systems, where he has consulted with and coached some of the best pass rushers in the NFL, including Von Miller, Vic Beasley and Aaron Donald. "You want to hit the quarterback as much as you can because that changes the dynamics of the game."The QB position and the Edge Rusher position are almost similar in value according to the NFL market value. That's not *me* saying it, that's the *market* saying it.
And that type of game changer doesn't come cheap. Among the 25 highest contracts being paid to NFL players, 10 are quarterbacks and nine are pass-rushing specialists, including Miller, J.J. Watt, Fletcher Cox and Olivier Vernon, each of whom average more than $17 million per season. But the return on investment is substantial because, put simply, sacks kill drives
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fancy-stats/wp/2017/08/01/the-value-of-a-sack-and-why-pass-rusher-is-the-nfls-second-most-important-position/?utm_term=.6f8eb5aebb2f
Originally posted by Giedi:The ability to pass rush really changes the game dynamics.Originally posted by NYniner85:Originally posted by Giedi:I think Dynasties are built on franchise QB's and elite pass rushers. You had the Steelers, you had the Raiders, Dallas with Harvy Martin and Randy White, and somebody mentioned McGinest and Jones for the Pat's dynasty. Elite edge rushers are the second most valuable player after the QB in terms of player salary. The question is whether or not Kalil is worth 2 first round picks, and my point is - is it really 2 first round picks when the most probable spot for those picks would be in the 20th spot or lower? That's really not much better than two very high 2nd round picks in my opinion. I think ShanaLynch is right - get a franchise QB passer and then get an elite edge rusher that can stop the pass and knock down the opposing QB.
How is McGinest an elite edge rusher? I think people throw around the world elite wayyyyy too much. Yes, you need good pass rush no doubt (I was beating the table for one all draft season). NE did't have constant elite edge rushers. They won because of their QB and coaching period.
Also you can't conclude that those picks will be in the low 20s...we're a JG injury away from drafting top 5 imo. What happens if he gets hurt and our draft pick we moved was in place to draft a Nick Bosa? Nah,edge rushers are important but there is no way in hell a football player outside of a top end QB is worth the trade compensation people are talking about...it's a damn joke to even consider it.
People get all infatuated with names and don't really step back and look at everything. Mack is a stud but he helped the 23rd overall defense last yr. that's not worth two 1sts (and $100 million) it's just not.
Here's a team that traded two first rounders to get a pass rusher. I'm not saying Kalil is worth two first rounders but am saying that this is a data point that you *have* to account for in valuing Pass rushers from a draft value perspective.
Also agree that they aren't cheap and that you will devote a significant amount of cap space to said elite edge rusher.
Fans and media types alike heaped criticism on the New Orleans Saints for their decision at the 2018 NFL Draft to trade a pair of first-round picks (and a fifth-rounder) to move up to the 14th spot where they drafted Texas-San Antonio defensive end Marcus Davenport. Head coach Sean Payton defended the move by pointing out that, as a pass rusher, Davenport played at one of the league's premier positions — the kind of game-changer he couldn't find on the free agent market during the offseason.
"One of the offseason targets was a pressure player and that might come as a guy who lines up inside, it might come from a player that lines up outside," Payton told the media at a May press conference. "But before we check that box we have to feel like he can affect the quarterback and in our league, there's a premium on a few different positions, one of them is that, one of them is a corner. We saw the quarterbacks and the tackles. We can't find those guys when the season is over with and we start free agency. They're generally players you have to draft.
https://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2018/5/11/17326722/nfl-free-agent-pass-rusher-position-salary
The QB position and the Edge Rusher position are almost similar in value according to the NFL market value. That's not *me* saying it, that's the *market* saying it.
"If the most important person on the field is the quarterback, the second-most important person must be the guy who gets to the quarterback," said Chuck Smith, a former all-pro defensive end and founder of Chuck Smith Training Systems, where he has consulted with and coached some of the best pass rushers in the NFL, including Von Miller, Vic Beasley and Aaron Donald. "You want to hit the quarterback as much as you can because that changes the dynamics of the game."
And that type of game changer doesn't come cheap. Among the 25 highest contracts being paid to NFL players, 10 are quarterbacks and nine are pass-rushing specialists, including Miller, J.J. Watt, Fletcher Cox and Olivier Vernon, each of whom average more than $17 million per season. But the return on investment is substantial because, put simply, sacks kill drives
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fancy-stats/wp/2017/08/01/the-value-of-a-sack-and-why-pass-rusher-is-the-nfls-second-most-important-position/?utm_term=.6f8eb5aebb2f
Originally posted by mojave45:
All that Fri b said you don't use both draft capital and cap space at the same time on one player at ER who doesn't absolutely take over games. Certainly not on a ten that's not one player away from contending thus season. And we aren't.
Originally posted by SisterFister:
Mack fined 814k for missing 1st preseason game. Armstead + a 1st and a 3rd seems like reasonable compensation. Not sure why we aren't calling Oakland every day. We have the money to pay him without damaging the future.
Talk about the 1 player who could make this defense elite.