Chicago Bears vs. San Francisco 49ers Rebuilding Plan

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

^ well now you are changing the parameters of your initial statement. They are 8 starters from 2 drafts who are contributors to this team. And according your logic these are hits, so Lynch is doing his job and actually exceeding it because he has produced 4 starters per year vs. 2.3.
Not sure how you can go out and spend top $ on a all pro CB, top C on the market, a RB and FQB and not have that considered aggressive. Just because they didn't go overspend for someone like Robinson does not negate what they did in FA . You and I just have different views on this

I don't know how to be more clear. The 2.3 study is based on high quality starters that would start on just about every team and clear building blocks. And it's an average since some teams are at the beginning or end of rebuilds and have more or less starting roles open.

"Contributors" are basically every player that played 1 snap for us last year.

I mean, if you wanted to make a buckets/tier of players like Oscar/David did, I'd probably agree with the mass majority of it.

You're not clear though NC. You said starters per draft. Well those guys are starters and have contributed. You also used to label guys like Vance Mcdonald hits. So you can see how it might be a bit confusing.

+ Show all quotes
McDonald was an every down starter for us and a quality starter. He's proven the same on another team in Pittsburgh which proved he was a hit. That doesn't mean he's an all pro talent but clearly a talent that could start on most teams.

Also, the hit is in a vacuum...as of today.

To make it easier: Would X player be a high quality starter on just about every team in the NFL?

That can also include nickel starters too. So Bryce Callahan, of the 1K defensive snaps, he's only going to max log in 600-700 of those as a nickel SCB. But he's one of the best best in the NFL and would be starting on just about every single team. He's about to get paid.

See this is where the disconnect is. Vance McDonald was never a hit nor was he ever a quality starter during his time here (also he was not an every down starter here. He didn't start getting substantial starts until year 3) And if you are saying he was while at the same time poo pooing the guys that I rattled off, then there is some extreme bias at play here and there's probably nothing more to discuss

Vacuum. Once he became the starter he was awarded a starter contract commensurate his TE class. Same with the Steelers latest contract. Guys like he and Daniel Kilgore are borderline starters on most teams...lower end, I agree.

If you don't want to call that a full hit, call him the .3 in the 2.3 average. LOL

Just because Baalke handed him that awful contract on the way out does not mean he's a hit. Everyone was s**tting on that deal when he gave it out (well almost everyone lol). Minus a few game stretch spanning 2 seasons, he was awful here. He was awful his first season in PIT. This year he finally had a decent season.
.3 that made me chuckle NC
I'll go over their 2 drafts and throw something together who knows how accurate it will be lol

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Just because Baalke handed him that awful contract on the way out does not mean he's a hit. Everyone was s**tting on that deal when he gave it out (well almost everyone lol). Minus a few game stretch spanning 2 seasons, he was awful here. He was awful his first season in PIT. This year he finally had a decent season.
.3 that made me chuckle NC
I'll go over their 2 drafts and throw something together who knows how accurate it will be lol

Haha. He was certainly not my favorite player with his hands of stone. His all or nothing game. He was way more important to our run game the first couple years behind Smoothie King. I do remember struggling with that one myself because there just weren't a lot of good TE's...had too look at all the numbers. Some were mostly run blockers and others just pass catchers. Few blanched. Few good in either. His Pittsburgh success did validate my slight lean towards a hit but in the long run but if you wanted to claim otherwise, I certainly wouldn't put up a big debate there. Ha.

Yeah, would love to read it! I would never rip it; that's for sure. Appreciate the discussion as always.

^ ok here you go. It's s little easier to grade Paces first 2 drafts because they were 3 and 4 years ago so you are really seeing who these guys are.

2015 Bears draft
Hit-Goldman and Amos
2016 Bears draft
Hit- Floyd
Hit-Whitehair
Hit-Howard


2017 49ers draft
Hit-Kittle
Hit-Breida
Hit- this one is tough because I'm taking a good year one and a poor year 2 into consideration plus factoring in his skill set, again will have a better idea of this one after this upcoming season...Witherspoon
Hit-Foster. Only putting him in because of your criteria and based on his play and WAS quickly picking him up he fits it. But he also got cut for off field issues so I dunno lol. Kind of hard to say he's a hit, but you said a guy who can be a high level starter in another team, so I guess he needs to be included
2018 49ers draft
Hit-MM
Hit-Warner
Hit-Pettis

So let's say we remove Witherspoon and Foster it's about 5 vs. 5

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

^ ok here you go. It's s little easier to grade Paces first 2 drafts because they were 3 and 4 years ago so you are really seeing who these guys are.

2015 Bears draft
Hit-Goldman and Amos
2016 Bears draft
Hit- Floyd
Hit-Whitehair
Hit-Howard


2017 49ers draft
Hit-Kittle
Hit-Breida
Hit- this one is tough because I'm taking a good year one and a poor year 2 into consideration plus factoring in his skill set, again will have a better idea of this one after this upcoming season...Witherspoon
Hit-Foster. Only putting him in because of your criteria and based on his play and WAS quickly picking him up he fits it. But he also got cut for off field issues so I dunno lol. Kind of hard to say he's a hit, but you said a guy who can be a high level starter in another team, so I guess he needs to be included
2018 49ers draft
Hit-MM
Hit-Warner
Hit-Pettis

So let's say we remove Witherspoon and Foster it's about 5 vs. 5

See, it's not that easy when you're trying to be super objective. LOL.

Overall, that looks pretty fair to me. Fair reasoning. And I do think more have a really good chance to move into that next bucket too...maybe even a couple who had bad sophomore seasons. Better coaches and design on defense will help a ton as will new talent helping to raise the play of others (ER = better CB play).

Can't wait...

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

^ ok here you go. It's s little easier to grade Paces first 2 drafts because they were 3 and 4 years ago so you are really seeing who these guys are.

2015 Bears draft
Hit-Goldman and Amos
2016 Bears draft
Hit- Floyd
Hit-Whitehair
Hit-Howard


2017 49ers draft
Hit-Kittle
Hit-Breida
Hit- this one is tough because I'm taking a good year one and a poor year 2 into consideration plus factoring in his skill set, again will have a better idea of this one after this upcoming season...Witherspoon
Hit-Foster. Only putting him in because of your criteria and based on his play and WAS quickly picking him up he fits it. But he also got cut for off field issues so I dunno lol. Kind of hard to say he's a hit, but you said a guy who can be a high level starter in another team, so I guess he needs to be included
2018 49ers draft
Hit-MM
Hit-Warner
Hit-Pettis

So let's say we remove Witherspoon and Foster it's about 5 vs. 5

See, it's not that easy when you're trying to be super objective. LOL.

Overall, that looks pretty fair to me. Fair reasoning. And I do think more have a really good chance to move into that next bucket too...maybe even a couple who had bad sophomore seasons. Better coaches and design on defense will help a ton as will new talent helping to raise the play of others (ER = better CB play).

Can't wait...

The tough part is trying to grade players from drafts 3-4 years ago vs. guys just finishing their 1st and 2nd season and there are some mixed results on the 2nd year players dc year 1. The objective part is what kind of threw me for a loop with the rationale used when you classified McDonald a hit yet left guys like Pettis and Breida off the hit list. But hey we don't always have to see eye to eye
And yes agree, I really hope some of these sophomore slump guys return to freshman form and someone like Thomas turns into a player. Would be huge for the team.
Can't wait for combine, FA, trades, draft etc. hopefully they are very aggressive, as this year, unlike last, there really appears to be top level talent at major positions of need available

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

^ ok here you go. It's s little easier to grade Paces first 2 drafts because they were 3 and 4 years ago so you are really seeing who these guys are.

2015 Bears draft
Hit-Goldman and Amos
2016 Bears draft
Hit- Floyd
Hit-Whitehair
Hit-Howard


2017 49ers draft
Hit-Kittle
Hit-Breida
Hit- this one is tough because I'm taking a good year one and a poor year 2 into consideration plus factoring in his skill set, again will have a better idea of this one after this upcoming season...Witherspoon
Hit-Foster. Only putting him in because of your criteria and based on his play and WAS quickly picking him up he fits it. But he also got cut for off field issues so I dunno lol. Kind of hard to say he's a hit, but you said a guy who can be a high level starter in another team, so I guess he needs to be included
2018 49ers draft
Hit-MM
Hit-Warner
Hit-Pettis

So let's say we remove Witherspoon and Foster it's about 5 vs. 5

See, it's not that easy when you're trying to be super objective. LOL.

Overall, that looks pretty fair to me. Fair reasoning. And I do think more have a really good chance to move into that next bucket too...maybe even a couple who had bad sophomore seasons. Better coaches and design on defense will help a ton as will new talent helping to raise the play of others (ER = better CB play).

Can't wait...

The tough part is trying to grade players from drafts 3-4 years ago vs. guys just finishing their 1st and 2nd season and there are some mixed results on the 2nd year players dc year 1. The objective part is what kind of threw me for a loop with the rationale used when you classified McDonald a hit yet left guys like Pettis and Breida off the hit list. But hey we don't always have to see eye to eye
And yes agree, I really hope some of these sophomore slump guys return to freshman form and someone like Thomas turns into a player. Would be huge for the team.
Can't wait for combine, FA, trades, draft etc. hopefully they are very aggressive, as this year, unlike last, there really appears to be top level talent at major positions of need available

Yeah, just time really. VM had been on the team a while and had a clear role at the time I first did that exercise (and I still struggled with it --- ha).

The fun part will be doing this this time next year. It should be much clearer esp. for players like Breida and Pettis.

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

^ well now you are changing the parameters of your initial statement. They are 8 starters from 2 drafts who are contributors to this team. And according your logic these are hits, so Lynch is doing his job and actually exceeding it because he has produced 4 starters per year vs. 2.3.
Not sure how you can go out and spend top $ on a all pro CB, top C on the market, a RB and FQB and not have that considered aggressive. Just because they didn't go overspend for someone like Robinson does not negate what they did in FA . You and I just have different views on this

You both make great points I am a little more skewed to hoovs argument but also we need more quality starters just not starters that contribute. Both of you are right. Either way, we need more quality starters

I liked what we did last year in free agency and hope this year we get earl Thomas and Brandon graham

Originally posted by elguapo:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

^ well now you are changing the parameters of your initial statement. They are 8 starters from 2 drafts who are contributors to this team. And according your logic these are hits, so Lynch is doing his job and actually exceeding it because he has produced 4 starters per year vs. 2.3.
Not sure how you can go out and spend top $ on a all pro CB, top C on the market, a RB and FQB and not have that considered aggressive. Just because they didn't go overspend for someone like Robinson does not negate what they did in FA . You and I just have different views on this

You both make great points I am a little more skewed to hoovs argument but also we need more quality starters just not starters that contribute. Both of you are right. Either way, we need more quality starters

I liked what we did last year in free agency and hope this year we get earl Thomas and Brandon graham

Thanks...just gotta keep adding to the talent pool and developing players properly within the schemes.

This project could see a big jump in players into that quality starter bucket. Fingers crossed.

Originally posted by elguapo:

You both make great points I am a little more skewed to hoovs argument but also we need more quality starters just not starters that contribute. Both of you are right. Either way, we need more quality starters

I liked what we did last year in free agency and hope this year we get earl Thomas and Brandon graham

Man. You want Thomas? I don't think I could stomach another seahawk on the team. Plus, I think he would get hurt and miss some games.

Originally posted by Morgan49:

Originally posted by elguapo:

You both make great points I am a little more skewed to hoovs argument but also we need more quality starters just not starters that contribute. Both of you are right. Either way, we need more quality starters

I liked what we did last year in free agency and hope this year we get earl Thomas and Brandon graham

Man. You want Thomas? I don't think I could stomach another seahawk on the team. Plus, I think he would get hurt and miss some games.

As long as he plays closer to Richard Sherman than Malcolm Smith.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Morgan49:

Originally posted by elguapo:

You both make great points I am a little more skewed to hoovs argument but also we need more quality starters just not starters that contribute. Both of you are right. Either way, we need more quality starters

I liked what we did last year in free agency and hope this year we get earl Thomas and Brandon graham

Man. You want Thomas? I don't think I could stomach another seahawk on the team. Plus, I think he would get hurt and miss some games.

As long as he plays closer to Richard Sherman than Malcolm Smith.

I definitely want Thomas. What did he have three interceptions in three games last year? He still has it and if we got him and Antonio Brown you can throw in 3 to 4 more wins a year just on that alone and that's not counting Jimmy Garoppolo.

Originally posted by elguapo:

I definitely want Thomas. What did he have three interceptions in three games last year? He still has it and if we got him and Antonio Brown you can throw in 3 to 4 more wins a year just on that alone and that's not counting Jimmy Garoppolo.

That would certainly be an enormous boost.

Originally posted by elguapo:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Morgan49:

Originally posted by elguapo:

You both make great points I am a little more skewed to hoovs argument but also we need more quality starters just not starters that contribute. Both of you are right. Either way, we need more quality starters

I liked what we did last year in free agency and hope this year we get earl Thomas and Brandon graham

+ Show all quotes Man. You want Thomas? I don't think I could stomach another seahawk on the team. Plus, I think he would get hurt and miss some games.

As long as he plays closer to Richard Sherman than Malcolm Smith.

I definitely want Thomas. What did he have three interceptions in three games last year? He still has it and if we got him and Antonio Brown you can throw in 3 to 4 more wins a year just on that alone and that's not counting Jimmy Garoppolo.

Lol. Isn't that more ints than our whole team had last year?

Originally posted by Morgan49:

Originally posted by elguapo:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Morgan49:

Originally posted by elguapo:

You both make great points I am a little more skewed to hoovs argument but also we need more quality starters just not starters that contribute. Both of you are right. Either way, we need more quality starters

I liked what we did last year in free agency and hope this year we get earl Thomas and Brandon graham

Man. You want Thomas? I don't think I could stomach another seahawk on the team. Plus, I think he would get hurt and miss some games.

+ Show all quotes
As long as he plays closer to Richard Sherman than Malcolm Smith.

I definitely want Thomas. What did he have three interceptions in three games last year? He still has it and if we got him and Antonio Brown you can throw in 3 to 4 more wins a year just on that alone and that's not counting Jimmy Garoppolo.

Lol. Isn't that more ints than our whole team had last year?

I know right? Sherman is the man (I still hate saying that...a little) if Dallas doesn't get him he's ours. But Dallas is going to get him dammit

Originally posted by elguapo:

Originally posted by Morgan49:

Originally posted by elguapo:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Morgan49:

Originally posted by elguapo:
You both make great points I am a little more skewed to hoovs argument but also we need more quality starters just not starters that contribute. Both of you are right. Either way, we need more quality starters

I liked what we did last year in free agency and hope this year we get earl Thomas and Brandon graham

Man. You want Thomas? I don't think I could stomach another seahawk on the team. Plus, I think he would get hurt and miss some games.

As long as he plays closer to Richard Sherman than Malcolm Smith.

+ Show all quotes
I definitely want Thomas. What did he have three interceptions in three games last year? He still has it and if we got him and Antonio Brown you can throw in 3 to 4 more wins a year just on that alone and that's not counting Jimmy Garoppolo.

Lol. Isn't that more ints than our whole team had last year?

I know right? Sherman is the man (I still hate saying that...a little) if Dallas doesn't get him he's ours. But Dallas is going to get him dammit

With what money though?