Alex Smith

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by NineFourNiner:
"His skills didn't translate." (?)
"He couldn't read defenses." (Kaep)
"His arm sucked." (Sean ___, our former QB)
"He lacked drive." (The big-armed raider QB from a few years ago.)
"He got lazy." (Ryan Leaf)

Those seem like reasons why a college player's skills and success didn't carry over into the pros. Why did Smith immediately turn from a QB winning-type QB to something else when he put the Niners' cap on? (Not "what he became," but "what we got.")

Like I said before, there are plenty of reasons why a player's college skills and success didnt translate into the pros. Some are physical, some are mental, some are both.

For Alex specifically, I would say his arm strength after injury, his timidness, his field reading and trusting what he sees, inability to let it rip (whatever the reason may be, he often times played scared), his inaccuracy throwing deep/outside the numbers were the biggest issues he had here individually. Now, it didnt help matters that he had to learn new systems and had mediocre or bad talent around him either, which was also part of it.

And for the record, this......

Your post strongly suggested there was a radical difference between the two - college Alex and pro Alex and that change occurred right away.

.....is not something I said, suggested or believed. You clearly cant keep your emotions out of this. I have no idea how you gathered that. There was a radical difference between what we saw at Utah and what we saw in SF. But I never suggested it magically happened right away. Players take time to develop, and unfortunately for us, Alex never developed into what we all hoped he would.

Lol. You are getting hyped up and claiming I am emotional? Rich. I simply asked you questions about your position. I took no position. I called you out on your normal hyperbole and you backtracked. I used your words. Not mine. Here they are:. "If we got college Alex instead of the version we got,"

Your words are that we GOT a different version. What changed from when he left the U of U to when we "got" (I.e. drafted) him? Based on your new analysis, nothing. Rather, the change came over time in part due to poor coaching. What you've argued above is that Smith evolved, or de-volved, into a lesser quarterback. I agree with that position. And that happened for a myriad of reasons including external things that he couldn't control (coaching, injuries, surrounding talent).

I won't agree with the hyperbolic, emotional, and intentionally degrading hot take that we "got" (inherited/ drafted) a different QB than he was at U of U. That was your knee-jerk bias talking. Once you actually thought about it as stated above, you realized that we didn't "get" a lesser QB (making it all the QB's fault), but rather that circumstances, including those the QB could not control, led to that result. Your statement that we "got" a worse QB was poorly worded, at best.

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by Waterbear:
I'm pretty sure we broke a record for new offensive coordinators with Alex Smith. He finally had success with Norv Turner and bam he was gone.

This context is far different from what Jimmy had. Not to mention the system itself was much better for Jimmy.

Knowing this, I believe Smith was the better player in a vacuum. Jimmy performed better with the 49ers, and had more arm talent, but Smith had higher highs individually and was the better player overall, even with his conservative play style.

My friend, I disagree with almost this entire post.

First off, saying he "finally had success with Norv" is one of the more overblown narratives that Alex fans believe but isnt close to reality. He averaged 1 TD and 1 interception per game. His QBR was below 50. His passer rating was below 75. Did he have a better 2nd year than 1st? Sure. But his 1st year was among the worst years in NFL history for rookies. He showed some improvement, but he definitely didnt have "success."

I agree with the context part. Much different for Jimmy and Jimmy had a much better system.

I dont believe Smith was the better player, even in a vacuum. As much as I was ready to move off Jimmy, I would take 49er Jimmy over 49er Alex all day. Alex wasnt functional until Harbaugh. Jimmy was functional every season he was healthy enough to play.

I misspoke a little bit. Lol What I meant to say was he finally showed improvement with Norv, and they switched coordinators. And they did it again and again and again. Meanwhile Jimmy had the best coordinator in football and a good team around him throughout his career. I loved Harbaugh, but Greg Roman was not a good pass game coordinator by any stretch of the imagination, and Kyle is probably the best.

The issue I see with your logic is that we didn't see Jimmy in a comparable situation to Alex's early years in SF. Actually, we did, and Jimmy proceeded to get benched just the same, and yet the Raiders had far superior receiving weapons and defense then the seasons Alex was benched.

Jimmy had more success overall, and Jimmy was the better 49er, but Alex imo was the better player. Because I don't view numbers being the end all be all, and even though Alex was the ultimate game manager, and Jimmy had better arm talent and would try more throws, Jimmy was essentially immobile and couldn't run. Alex was an underutilized runner and IMO had pretty good pocket presence. When it clicked for him, he understood how to protect the football, and Jimmy never did. Alex's final 9 seasons, he through 8 or less interceptions. Sure he didn't have high touchdown numbers, but part of that was due to Greg Roman like I mentioned.

Another point I would like to make is that Alex showed he could turn it up a notch in the playoffs, when Jimmy never could. Alex proved he could be a a 3:1 touchdown guy, even 5:1 one year in KC and Jimmy couldn't get to a 3:1 in any season he finished and only one year of 2:1 when he played 16 games.

So if I'm running a team, and I have a good run game and defense, give me Alex (at the end of his career) to manage the game. I have a higher chance of winning with that, then a gunslinger who doesn't target or complete many deep passes, and doesn't perform well in the playoffs.

^saying "in a vacuum" eliminates the context. SWH blends the two in his last paragraph.

I think you and I are on the same page, i.e., though Jimmy had more success in less time for the team, we'd take a freshly drafted Smith over a freshly drafted Jimmy (i.e., in a vacuum). In other words, Jimmy was the better Niner but Alex had more upside. Fair?

Originally posted by NineFourNiner:
^saying "in a vacuum" eliminates the context. SWH blends the two in his last paragraph.

I think you and I are on the same page, i.e., though Jimmy had more success in less time for the team, we'd take a freshly drafted Smith over a freshly drafted Jimmy (i.e., in a vacuum). In other words, Jimmy was the better Niner but Alex had more upside. Fair?

I go back and forth when I hypothetically decide between the two. I honestly lean Jimmy, but also would speculate the vast majority of coaches would choose Smith.

Smith is more talented and his performance (at least as his career played out) was much more steady and reliable. Jimmy is more of a wild card. He'll take more chances but I don't think his playmaking potential is good enough to elevate him over a more trustworthy and versatile player in Smith.

^Smith at the end of his career or Jimmy today (end of career)?

Smith at peak or Jimmy at peak?

Smith out of the draft or Jimmy out of the draft?

Originally posted by NineFourNiner:
^Smith at the end of his career or Jimmy today (end of career)?

Smith at peak or Jimmy at peak?

Smith out of the draft or Jimmy out of the draft?

Taking Smith out of the draft and at the end of his career. Taking Jimmy in terms of peak performance, which I think was pretty rare.

Neither are ideal.

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:

Originally posted by NineFourNiner:
^Smith at the end of his career or Jimmy today (end of career)?

Smith at peak or Jimmy at peak?

Smith out of the draft or Jimmy out of the draft?

Taking Smith out of the draft and at the end of his career. Taking Jimmy in terms of peak performance, which I think was pretty rare.

Neither are ideal.

if i had to choose between the two, Jimmy easily

Originally posted by NineFourNiner:
Lol. You are getting hyped up and claiming I am emotional? Rich. I simply asked you questions about your position. I took no position. I called you out on your normal hyperbole and you backtracked. I used your words. Not mine. Here they are:. "If we got college Alex instead of the version we got,"

Your words are that we GOT a different version. What changed from when he left the U of U to when we "got" (I.e. drafted) him? Based on your new analysis, nothing. Rather, the change came over time in part due to poor coaching. What you've argued above is that Smith evolved, or de-volved, into a lesser quarterback. I agree with that position. And that happened for a myriad of reasons including external things that he couldn't control (coaching, injuries, surrounding talent).

I won't agree with the hyperbolic, emotional, and intentionally degrading hot take that we "got" (inherited/ drafted) a different QB than he was at U of U. That was your knee-jerk bias talking. Once you actually thought about it as stated above, you realized that we didn't "get" a lesser QB (making it all the QB's fault), but rather that circumstances, including those the QB could not control, led to that result. Your statement that we "got" a worse QB was poorly worded, at best.

No one is hyped up sir. I don't know how you are interpreting my post as being hyped up and emotional. It's not.

After all of this, you are basically saying that you took issue with my wording, which is fine. I'm not an English major. I never said nor meant that we inherited a lesser version of Alex....more so that we never experienced the high level college play that Alex showed. That's why I was perplexed when you replied asking me about what changed between college and him coming here. That wasn't at all what I was saying. Simply, l meant we never got an Alex that developed into a really good QB, like he was in college. Whether that was his fault, our coaches/organizations fault, or somewhere in between is up to everyone's own interpretation.

And again, this wasn't me backtracking or rethinking my position. I just never meant what you interpreted my post to mean. When I said got, I was speaking about the entire time he was a 49er, not rookie Alex. In college, every team that played Utah game planned to stop Alex. As a 49er, the game plan was to stop Gore and Alex was an afterthought. That's what I meant.

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:

Originally posted by NineFourNiner:
^Smith at the end of his career or Jimmy today (end of career)?

Smith at peak or Jimmy at peak?

Smith out of the draft or Jimmy out of the draft?

Taking Smith out of the draft and at the end of his career. Taking Jimmy in terms of peak performance, which I think was pretty rare.

Neither are ideal.

Reasonable.

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by NineFourNiner:
Lol. You are getting hyped up and claiming I am emotional? Rich. I simply asked you questions about your position. I took no position. I called you out on your normal hyperbole and you backtracked. I used your words. Not mine. Here they are:. "If we got college Alex instead of the version we got,"

Your words are that we GOT a different version. What changed from when he left the U of U to when we "got" (I.e. drafted) him? Based on your new analysis, nothing. Rather, the change came over time in part due to poor coaching. What you've argued above is that Smith evolved, or de-volved, into a lesser quarterback. I agree with that position. And that happened for a myriad of reasons including external things that he couldn't control (coaching, injuries, surrounding talent).

I won't agree with the hyperbolic, emotional, and intentionally degrading hot take that we "got" (inherited/ drafted) a different QB than he was at U of U. That was your knee-jerk bias talking. Once you actually thought about it as stated above, you realized that we didn't "get" a lesser QB (making it all the QB's fault), but rather that circumstances, including those the QB could not control, led to that result. Your statement that we "got" a worse QB was poorly worded, at best.

No one is hyped up sir. I don't know how you are interpreting my post as being hyped up and emotional. It's not.

After all of this, you are basically saying that you took issue with my wording, which is fine. I'm not an English major. I never said nor meant that we inherited a lesser version of Alex....more so that we never experienced the high level college play that Alex showed. That's why I was perplexed when you replied asking me about what changed between college and him coming here. That wasn't at all what I was saying. Simply, l meant we never got an Alex that developed into a really good QB, like he was in college. Whether that was his fault, our coaches/organizations fault, or somewhere in between is up to everyone's own interpretation.

And again, this wasn't me backtracking or rethinking my position. I just never meant what you interpreted my post to mean. When I said got, I was speaking about the entire time he was a 49er, not rookie Alex.

Ok. Poorly worded. Note that my first post offered you the opportunity to rephrase and clarify. You chose not to. Your later explanation is reasonable and, FWIW, one that I agree with.

Originally posted by NineFourNiner:
Ok. Poorly worded. Note that my first post offered you the opportunity to rephrase and clarify. You chose not to. Your later explanation is reasonable and, FWIW, one that I agree with.

I think if I said that "if we had college Alex instead..." you wouldn't have objected at all. I was super confused why you were asking me about the change in Alex from college to his first year. That's why I didn't backtracknor change what I said.

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:

Originally posted by NineFourNiner:
^Smith at the end of his career or Jimmy today (end of career)?

Smith at peak or Jimmy at peak?

Smith out of the draft or Jimmy out of the draft?

Taking Smith out of the draft and at the end of his career. Taking Jimmy in terms of peak performance, which I think was pretty rare.

Neither are ideal.

I really think Alex with Kyle would have a higher peak performance. I just trusted Alex more even though he was arguably less dynamic as a thrower. I was at the playoff game vs the Saints. It wasn't a great game like some make it out to be but that last drive he flipped a switch that I'd argue we only saw Jimmy have in 2019 Rams game at home. He made all the correct reads and only held onto the ball too long on one play, but the deep throw to Swain, and the two to Vernon to march down the field in 1:37 after running in the previous touchdown. That waaayyy better than anything Jimmy did in the playoffs, and that game for Alex wasn't even his best playoff game.

I definitely go back and forth and I do believe it's closer than people think.

Originally posted by Waterbear:
I really think Alex with Kyle would have a higher peak performance. I just trusted Alex more even though he was arguably less dynamic as a thrower. I was at the playoff game vs the Saints. It wasn't a great game like some make it out to be but that last drive he flipped a switch that I'd argue we only saw Jimmy have in 2019 Rams game at home. He made all the correct reads and only held onto the ball too long on one play, but the deep throw to Swain, and the two to Vernon to march down the field in 1:37 after running in the previous touchdown. That waaayyy better than anything Jimmy did in the playoffs, and that game for Alex wasn't even his best playoff game.

I definitely go back and forth and I do believe it's closer than people think.

Only thing I'll say to argue about that Saints game performance was that the Saints defense was really bad and Greg Williams had one of the more memorable atrocious play calling sequences late in the game. Have to give credit still for making the plays. What a great game that was.

That said, on this current team, I think Alex would be a good fit. He's heavy in targets to the TE-RB and we have the best pass catching back in the league by far and an elite TE as well. Plus Deebo would fit his skillset. Aiyuk would probably be a forgotten man. I would bet significant money that Kyle would choose Alex.

^ but, man, I love Brock's deep throws and explosive plays. Veteran Smith would be the guy that the negative talking heads say Brock is - relying on YAC to do it all.

Originally posted by NineFourNiner:
^ but, man, I love Brock's deep throws and explosive plays. Veteran Smith would be the guy that the negative talking heads say Brock is - relying on YAC to do it all.

Agree. Definitely taking Brock over both of them. Brock has tangible skills we haven't seen since Garcia. Anticipatory throwing, ability to go through progressions, field vision, great feel in the pocket. All the other guys: Jimmy, Alex, Kaep were flawed players in some or all of these areas.