Javon Kinlaw is a Jet!-Pick #14, 2020 NFL Draft.

Originally posted by Kolohe:
Instead of copying and pasting show me each sack where you say it was a "clean up".

LOL. You don't know what a clean up sack is? Jesus.

It's when you pick up a sack off of pressure someone else generated redirecting the passer your way.

Would like to see all 16 as you say, instead of what PFF is saying.

And I would like world peace. If you want that go find it yourself.

But I will run you down video of his breakout 2018 Pro-Bowl season where he tallied 12 sacks. Here is the video:



Go look at:
0:01-0:07 (clean up sack off the corner blitz/Williams forces Cousins out of the pocket and Buckner gets him in pursuit)
0:15-0:21 (clean up sack/Marsh forces Cousins to scramble)
0:41-0:44 (blown assignment/totally lost pulling guard led to a wide open lane at Rodgers)
1:35-1:41 (clean up sack/Wilson ran right at him on scramble after good coverage shut down his recievers)
1:55-2:00 (clean up sack/ Blair pushed Wilson back on the opposite edge)
2:13-2:20 (clean up sack off the blitz/Thomas and Blair generated pressure and Buckner cleaned up with great pursuit)
2:25-2:30 (clean up coverage sack on yet another scramble/QB was stonewalled by Warner and Buckner got him in pursuit)

That's 7 out 12 sacks --which matches up almost perfectly with his career 57% rate) that were either from missed assignment or clean up sacks generated when some other defender pressured the passer into his direction or outside of the pocket.

Personally, I am amazed at how many of Defo's sacks came from pursuit of the passer considering he's an "interior lineman." His motor was amazing. But he vultured a lot of sacks that year from pressure coming at the edges that redirected QBs around his way. Dude got stonewalled a few times in these highlights.

Again, funny now that Buckner is off the team his sack numbers are clean ups. To say Buckner wasn't elite (when you just stated he was elite lol) is down right silly.

I dunno if its that you can't read or that you just don't get it. I am just reiterating what PFF argued so ascribing this ulterior motive to me doesn't make sense. I thought Buck was far more elite than the article described and was myself surprised about his relatively meh pressure rates and pumped up sack totals. All I did was present the evidence they used in making the case against Defo's new contract to add to the debate going on here about his value.

But now that I've seen the video, I am more inclined to agree with PFF. He's been overhyped by fellow Niner fans. His raw sack totals have been inflated and are diminished when contextualized with an objective study of the video.

You're just mad and homering it up in denial.

Originally posted by Kolohe:

Originally posted by DonnieDarko:

Originally posted by RasSuar:

His WAR isn't even in the top 4.

Most valuable interior linemen since 2016, per PFF WAR:

➤ Aaron Donald
➤ Fletcher Cox
➤ Ndamukong Suh
➤ Chris Jones pic.twitter.com/euqLwNWCYI

— PFF (@PFF) July 18, 2020

Suh?? lmao he sucks

Still hasn't told us what this WAR stat is.

Wins above replacement

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by CatchMaster80:

Originally posted by Giedi:
Thats one of the many reasons I hate the cap, you end up losing great players, and it really forces teams to draft well every year. Going to miss Buckster, but I'm totally excited to see if Kinlaw can make Defensive rookie of the year.

It's also one of the main reasons predictions for a dynasty or several SBs is a laugh. Every fan base does this when their team has a good year as if they are going to be able to keep the team together. With the average NFL career at 3.3 years you in effect turn over your roster that often. With the exception of a handful of key players the rest are always coming and going and some of the guys that go are pretty good. As we saw with Buckner, even key players get traded or cut to make room under the cap. Team chemistry is always changing and injuries make it even harder to predict long runs of success. It's not like it was before the cap and free agency.

Agree to a good portion, but Dynasties are still possible in the Salary Cap era. How the Pats did it is amazing. Cheating is a factor in how they did it. But overall, they used the cap to their advantage, and I think ShanaLynch can use it to their advantage too. We shall see.

The Pats were in a very unique position. Yes they had Belichick and Brady but the real thing they had going for them was playing in the weakest division in the league for the last 20 years. Constant QB and coaching changes with the 3 other teams so they basically had a first round bye in the playoffs automatically. Then they played in the AFC which hasn't been loaded with a lot of great teams during that period. The NFC was much more competitive and the road for them was harder. NE only really had to worry about the Steelers and the Ravens in most seasons.

You can't take away the fact that they won 6 SBs but they also lost 3 ( 2 to the Giants and one to the Eagles neither of which were great teams). The chances of one division being that weak again for so long aren't great.

Originally posted by RasSuar:

Originally posted by Kolohe:
Instead of copying and pasting show me each sack where you say it was a "clean up".

LOL. You don't know what a clean up sack is? Jesus.

It's when you pick up a sack off of pressure someone else generated redirecting the passer your way.

Would like to see all 16 as you say, instead of what PFF is saying.

And I would like world peace. If you want that go find it yourself.

But I will run you down video of his breakout 2018 Pro-Bowl season where he tallied 12 sacks. Here is the video:



Go look at:
0:01-0:07 (clean up sack off the corner blitz/Williams forces Cousins out of the pocket and Buckner gets him in pursuit)
0:15-0:21 (clean up sack/Marsh forces Cousins to scramble)
0:41-0:44 (blown assignment/totally lost pulling guard led to a wide open lane at Rodgers)
1:35-1:41 (clean up sack/Wilson ran right at him on scramble after good coverage shut down his recievers)
1:55-2:00 (clean up sack/ Blair pushed Wilson back on the opposite edge)
2:13-2:20 (clean up sack off the blitz/Thomas and Blair generated pressure and Buckner cleaned up with great pursuit)
2:25-2:30 (clean up coverage sack on yet another scramble/QB was stonewalled by Warner and Buckner got him in pursuit)

That's 7 out 12 sacks --which matches up almost perfectly with his career 57% rate) that were either from missed assignment or clean up sacks generated when some other defender pressured the passer into his direction or outside of the pocket.

Personally, I am amazed at how many of Defo's sacks came from pursuit of the passer considering he's an "interior lineman." His motor was amazing. But he vultured a lot of TDs that year from pressure coming at the edges that redirected QBs around his way. Dude got stonewalled a few times in these sack highlights.

Again, funny now that Buckner is off the team his sack numbers are clean ups. To say Buckner wasn't elite (when you just stated he was elite lol) is down right silly.

I dunno if its that you can't read or that you just don't get it. I am just reiterating what PFF argued so ascribing this ulterior motive to me doesn't make sense. I thought Buck was far more elite than the article described and was myself surprised about his relatively meh pressure rates and pumped up sack totals. All I did was present the evidence they used in making the case against Defo's new contract to add to the debate going on here about his value.

But now that I've seen the video, I am more inclined to agree with PFF. He's been overhyped by fellow Niner fans. His raw sack totals have been inflated and are diminished when contextualized with an objective study of the video.

You're just mad and homering it up in denial.

Now do the same breakdown for Cox and Jones?? I already saw their highlight videos, I can tell you right now they have clean up sacks too, are they overhyped, no why not?? My point is clean up sacks happen, what matters is he was in the backfield to begin with right or did the QB just run right into Buckner?? Your whole argument of clean up sacks still doesn't make him overrated or overhyped either, seems you're just mad that that those sacks count on his stat sheet.

And lol now that you've seen the video, bro I've been watching Buckner since he was drafted, you call yourself a 9er fan by just now watching a highlight video of him.

Originally posted by Kolohe:

Originally posted by RasSuar:

Originally posted by Kolohe:
Instead of copying and pasting show me each sack where you say it was a "clean up".

LOL. You don't know what a clean up sack is? Jesus.

It's when you pick up a sack off of pressure someone else generated redirecting the passer your way.

Would like to see all 16 as you say, instead of what PFF is saying.

And I would like world peace. If you want that go find it yourself.

But I will run you down video of his breakout 2018 Pro-Bowl season where he tallied 12 sacks. Here is the video:



Go look at:
0:01-0:07 (clean up sack off the corner blitz/Williams forces Cousins out of the pocket and Buckner gets him in pursuit)
0:15-0:21 (clean up sack/Marsh forces Cousins to scramble)
0:41-0:44 (blown assignment/totally lost pulling guard led to a wide open lane at Rodgers)
1:35-1:41 (clean up sack/Wilson ran right at him on scramble after good coverage shut down his recievers)
1:55-2:00 (clean up sack/ Blair pushed Wilson back on the opposite edge)
2:13-2:20 (clean up sack off the blitz/Thomas and Blair generated pressure and Buckner cleaned up with great pursuit)
2:25-2:30 (clean up coverage sack on yet another scramble/QB was stonewalled by Warner and Buckner got him in pursuit)

That's 7 out 12 sacks --which matches up almost perfectly with his career 57% rate) that were either from missed assignment or clean up sacks generated when some other defender pressured the passer into his direction or outside of the pocket.

Personally, I am amazed at how many of Defo's sacks came from pursuit of the passer considering he's an "interior lineman." His motor was amazing. But he vultured a lot of TDs that year from pressure coming at the edges that redirected QBs around his way. Dude got stonewalled a few times in these sack highlights.

Again, funny now that Buckner is off the team his sack numbers are clean ups. To say Buckner wasn't elite (when you just stated he was elite lol) is down right silly.

I dunno if its that you can't read or that you just don't get it. I am just reiterating what PFF argued so ascribing this ulterior motive to me doesn't make sense. I thought Buck was far more elite than the article described and was myself surprised about his relatively meh pressure rates and pumped up sack totals. All I did was present the evidence they used in making the case against Defo's new contract to add to the debate going on here about his value.

But now that I've seen the video, I am more inclined to agree with PFF. He's been overhyped by fellow Niner fans. His raw sack totals have been inflated and are diminished when contextualized with an objective study of the video.

You're just mad and homering it up in denial.

Now do the same breakdown for Cox and Jones?? I already saw their highlight videos, I can tell you right now they have clean up sacks too, are they overhyped, no why not?? My point is clean up sacks happen, what matters is he was in the backfield to begin with right or did the QB just run right into Buckner?? Your whole argument of clean up sacks still doesn't make him overrated or overhyped either, seems you're just mad that that those sacks count on his stat sheet.

And lol now that you've seen the video, bro I've been watching Buckner since he was drafted, you call yourself a 9er fan by just now watching a highlight video of him.

This always happens. When a good player is on your team he's elite/top 3 in the league. Once that good player leaves, he's above average and over paid.

Is this the Defo Buckner thread? He was really good for the Niners but is not worth the money he made IMO. Neither is Armstead but at least he was cheaper.
Defo wasn't stout enough against the run either. Being super tall and lean hurt his leverage at the point of attack.

Buckner isn't better than Donald or Jones fact. Fletcher Cox it's debatable. They had to let him walk for that price tag especially when they're getting a first in return. No brainer.

The clean up sack stat makes sense for such a high motor guy. When he's tasked with picking up that many double teams most likely he's not going to be the first one to the QB. There is no denying his durability and motor though.

Originally posted by Kolohe:

Now do the same breakdown for Cox and Jones?? I already saw their highlight videos, I can tell you right now they have clean up sacks too, are they overhyped, no why not?? My point is clean up sacks happen, what matters is he was in the backfield to begin with right or did the QB just run right into Buckner?? Your whole argument of clean up sacks still doesn't make him overrated or overhyped either, seems you're just mad that that those sacks count on his stat sheet.

And lol now that you've seen the video, bro I've been watching Buckner since he was drafted, you call yourself a 9er fan by just now watching a highlight video of him.

He just now watched the highlight video. Doesn't mean he's never watched the games. Can you remember off the top of your head the times his sacks were clean up sacks? Or the times he beat 2 defenders? Don't think so.

In a few years they'll wonder how Kinlaw made it to #14. In a re-draft a few years from now he will go top 5. Teach him technique and this guy is going to beast out!

Originally posted by Howlett49:

Originally posted by Kolohe:
Now do the same breakdown for Cox and Jones?? I already saw their highlight videos, I can tell you right now they have clean up sacks too, are they overhyped, no why not?? My point is clean up sacks happen, what matters is he was in the backfield to begin with right or did the QB just run right into Buckner?? Your whole argument of clean up sacks still doesn't make him overrated or overhyped either, seems you're just mad that that those sacks count on his stat sheet.

And lol now that you've seen the video, bro I've been watching Buckner since he was drafted, you call yourself a 9er fan by just now watching a highlight video of him.

He just now watched the highlight video. Doesn't mean he's never watched the games. Can you remember off the top of your head the times his sacks were clean up sacks? Or the times he beat 2 defenders? Don't think so.

Obviously you just read my post and missed the point here. But thanks for your input bro.

Originally posted by Kolohe:

Obviously you just read my post and missed the point here. But thanks for your input bro.

I've read pretty much your whole argument with dude which you're losing at btw. I've watched all the games too homie don't worry! Lmao

Is this the Kinlaw thread?

Originally posted by Howlett49:

Originally posted by Kolohe:
Obviously you just read my post and missed the point here. But thanks for your input bro.

I've read pretty much your whole argument with dude which you're losing at btw. I've watched all the games too homie don't worry! Lmao

Wow I'm losing, didn't know we were keeping score. WTF is this a kids game. smfh

I'm losing because clean up sacks overrate Buckner?? I mean if that's the case every interior lineman listed is overrated, or are you gonna tell me they also don't have clean up sacks??

Originally posted by miked1978:
Is this the Kinlaw thread?

My fault, its the DeForest Buckner is over hyped now that he's off the team thread.

Originally posted by Kolohe:

Wow I'm losing, didn't know we were keeping score. WTF is this a kids game. smfh

I'm losing because clean up sacks overrate Buckner?? I mean if that's the case every interior lineman listed is overrated, or are you gonna tell me they also don't have clean up sacks??

You just learned what a clean up sack is. I laughed when I saw that you put it in quotes as if it wasn't a real thing and something the poster made up. Maybe I phrased the winning losing thing wrong but I disagree with your perspective more than the other guy who was just going off of pure facts rather than fanboy allegence. I wasn't even trying to get into a debate with you on this. You tried to call dude out for only watching a video and not the games. It was a lousy argument to try and prove you're more of a fan. That s**t is annoying because anyone on here must be a fan otherwise they wouldn't be here.

I guess you missed the point. Thanks for your input bro!

Originally posted by Kolohe:
Now do the same breakdown for Cox and Jones??

Again, it's clear you didn't read the PFF article well, if at all. They explained that the most elite NFL interior defensive linemen like Chris Jones or Aaron Donald collect way less sacks from cleanup situations or missed blocking assignments and generate them off of pressure they create themselves. If you don't believe them just do a breakdown yourself like I did.

I already saw their highlight videos, I can tell you right now they have clean up sacks too, are they overhyped, no why not??

Great! If you saw their videos then you can go through their entire sack totals for a season and show me where they collect more than half their total sacks from cleanup situations or missed assignment like I showed you with Buckner's career 2018 season. Go ahead, I proved my point with a sack by sack video breakdown. I'll wait for you to prove yours with actual video proof....

My point is clean up sacks happen...

Now you're the expert on the fact that clean up sacks happen when I had to explain to what they were in my last post? You have to be some low grade troll. No way someone can be this obliviously dull in earnest.

Anyways, neither I nor PFF denied that clean up sacks happened, so your point here is irrelevant. Our point is that Buckner's sack totals are inflated by collecting more clean up sacks than any interior DL in the NFL since he came into the league in 2016 - a point which my video breakdown partly supports.

Your whole argument of clean up sacks still doesn't make him overrated or overhyped either, seems you're just mad that that those sacks count on his stat sheet.

Um, no. My point isn't that he didn't earn the sacks, but that not all sacks are of the same quality. The very very best pass rushers produce most of their sacks from pressure they generated themselves whereas Buckner does not. More than half of his sacks came from being able to capitalize from the work of surrounding pass rushers who forced the passer at him or out of the pocket. And that's a major difference. It's just like the difference between an elite basketball player on offense can create their own shot vs. another one who is dependent upon collecting easy layups or dunks from good passers around them. Buckner is more of the latter than the former.

And lol now that you've seen the video, bro I've been watching Buckner since he was drafted, you call yourself a 9er fan by just now watching a highlight video of him.

You watched all of Defo's NFL games yet you didn't even know about his majority of cleanup sacks until I broke down the video for you?

Most fans don't because few ever go back to rewatch the games and break down the video down again and again. We just see the games and don't pay attention to all of the teamwork that went into producing a sack that only one player gets statistical credit for.

At least I am honest enough to admit this. You, on the other hand, are still pretending to be an authority on a player you clearly knew less about than you originally thought.