Idk if that's the answer, but something needs to change. A league that's mostly black players, barely has any black GMs or HCs? Doesn't make sense
Maybe because the skill set for being a player, head coach and GM are different? When are they going to start giving incentives to bring in asian or hispanic players?
Abosolutely true. By that logic, the nba is even more racist than the nfl
It holds no relevance to how many players are black, white, hispanic or even asian as to if they are qualified to be the best coach at any given time that a head coaching job is available. The best coaching candidate should be the first choice, regardless of race. Just because you played in the league, it doesn't mean crap as to you being a great coach. Obviously that's been proven for many decades with many examples ie Billick, Walsh and Parcells. Stupid point.
Should the most qualified candidate be hired? Yes, regardless of race.
Originally posted by TheGore49er:
Idk if that's the answer, but something needs to change. A league that's mostly black players, barely has any black GMs or HCs? Doesn't make sense
Maybe because the skill set for being a player, head coach and GM are different? When are they going to start giving incentives to bring in asian or hispanic players?
There are barely any hispanic or asian players in the league, or college. what are you talking about lol
Originally posted by TheGore49er:
Idk if that's the answer, but something needs to change. A league that's mostly black players, barely has any black GMs or HCs? Doesn't make sense
Maybe because the skill set for being a player, head coach and GM are different? When are they going to start giving incentives to bring in asian or hispanic players?
Abosolutely true. By that logic, the nba is even more racist than the nfl
It holds no relevance to how many players are black, white, hispanic or even asian as to if they are qualified to be the best coach at any given time that a head coaching job is available. The best coaching candidate should be the first choice, regardless of race. Just because you played in the league, it doesn't mean crap as to you being a great coach. Obviously that's been proven for many decades with many examples ie Billick, Walsh and Parcells. Stupid point.
Should the most qualified candidate be hired? Yes, regardless of race.
All those coaches you mentioned at one point played pro or semi pro football. All of them played college football at least.
You two are really bad at this and not proving your point at all. Try again.
All those coaches you mentioned at one point played pro or semi pro football. All of them played college football at least.
You two are really bad at this and not proving your point at all. Try again.
Lol, you're not an educated person I assume with this statement. Your statement was "a league that's mostly black players" unless you're talking about some other league that's not the nfl, then you should clarify. There's been many previous nfl players that went on to head coaching jobs in the nfl, of those players, not all of them went on to be in the top 5 winningest coaches that the nfl has recorded to date.
There are also many nfl coaches that never played in the league, that proved to be some of the best coaches the league has had to date.
The winningest super bowl coach is Bill Billick who never played in the nfl.
The third winningest super bowl coach is Bill Walsh who never played in the nfl.
The fourth winningest super bowl coach is Joe Gibbs who never played in the nfl.
Don Shula is the overall winningest coach in the entire history of the nfl, he did play in the nfl, he is also not a minority.
Chuck Knoll is the second winningest super bowl coach, he did play in the nfl, he is also not a minority.
Vince Lombardi is the fifth winningest super bowl coach, he did play in the nfl, he is also not a minority.
Congratulations, you are the weakest link, lol.
[ Edited by ChicoCorrales on May 22, 2020 at 4:38 PM ]
Originally posted by TheGore49er:
All those coaches you mentioned at one point played pro or semi pro football. All of them played college football at least.
You two are really bad at this and not proving your point at all. Try again.
Lol, you're not an educated person I assume with this statement. Your statement was "a league that's mostly black players" unless you're talking some other league that's not the nfl, then you should clarify. There's been many previous nfl players that went on to head coaching jobs in the nfl, of those players, none of them went on to be in to top 5 winningest coaches that the nfl has recorded to date.
There are also many nfl coaches that never played in the league, that proved to be some of the best coaches the league has had to date.
The winningest super bowl coach is Bill Billick who never played in the nfl.
The third winningest super bowl coach is Bill Walsh who never played in the nfl.
The fourth winningest super bowl coach is Joe Gibbs who never played in the nfl.
Don Shula is the overall winningest coach in the entire history of the nfl, he did play in the nfl, he is also not a minority.
Chuck Knoll is the second winningest super bowl coach, he did play in the nfl, he is also not a minority.
Vince Lombardi is the fifth winningest super bowl coach, he did play in the nfl, he is also not a minority.
Congratulations, you are the weakest link, lol.
im not saying you have to play in the NFL. it was more of a general statement, that includes college football, AFL, CFL, etc. point was that a majority of football players at the semi pro level or pro level are black. Walsh, BB, Parcells, all played at least college ball.
and you are referencing coaches that played ball in the 60s lol. that has little to do with today. obviously it was a different atmosphere back then when it came to black people even being allowed to attend college, let alone play sports or coach.
and don't resort to calling out my education, you sound ignorant when you do that.
im not saying you have to play in the NFL. it was more of a general statement, that includes college football, AFL, CFL, etc. point was that a majority of football players at the semi pro level or pro level are black. Walsh, BB, Parcells, all played at least college ball.
and you are referencing coaches that played ball in the 60s lol. that has little to do with today. obviously it was a different atmosphere back then when it came to black people even being allowed to attend college, let alone play sports or coach.
and don't resort to calling out my education, you sound ignorant when you do that.
Oh, your statement required conditions? Lol, you are correct, conditioned statements have a heavy tone of ignorance to them ,thanks for the clarity, lol.
[ Edited by ChicoCorrales on May 22, 2020 at 4:44 PM ]
Right now there's only 2 African American offensive coordinators so good luck thinking this will change without the league stepping in. It's an offensive league, everyone wants that qb whisperer like Shanny. Whatever they do they really need to look at the ranks in general and not just the head coaching spot.
This. What more can Bieniemy do? Lafleur and Kingsbury are getting hired with below average resumes. While a guy running a top odfense gets nothing. Even his predeccessor with less success got a HC gig. And college football is even worse.
Why did you limit it to just offensive coordinators? Where's the entire list of nfl coaches all the way accross the board? There's only 32 spots available and that was only 28 not too long ago and a pool of hundreds of candidates. If the pool is 70% minority and all the head coaches hired are out of the 30% non minority, then absolutely there's a major issue, but when the pool is 30% minority and then you add the element of which coaching staff is perceived as most successful, im sure those percentages go down even further.
Are you saying Salah won't have an opportunity to coach? Bieniemy won't get an opportunity?
NFL owners want to win, they put money before race. So what's the reason there's not more minority coaches? You're saying it's racism? Where is the racism coming from that's not hiring minorities?
I didn't limit it to only offensive coordinators. I just used Bieneimy as a clear example. They guy is running the best offense in the NFL 2 years in a row but is getting passed up by white coaches with lesser resumes. 7 interviews and no job. Saleh did a great job and was only interviewed by one team. Meanwhile Joe Judge and Matt Lafleur who were position coaches get HC jobs. Kingsbury was a failure at the college level and gets HC job. My point is when we have black coaches that are clearly qualified they still get passed over by white coaches who are less qualified. A minority coach with the resume of Judge, or Kingsbury would never be hired. I didn't bring up Leftwhich b/c I don't believe he is qualified yet. I never once used the word racism. Could be prejudice and stereotyping. Just like 20 years ago the belief that black men weren't intelligent enough to be qb's. Slowly over time that has changed.
We all know there are more white canidates than minorities so more will be hired. Nobody is expecting it to be even ratio or even 70/30. But it's a clearly an issue when over the last 3 years only 3 minorities have been hired out of 19 openings.
I didn't limit it to only offensive coordinators. I just used Bieneimy as a clear example. They guy is running the best offense in the NFL 2 years in a row but is getting passed up by white coaches with lesser resumes. 7 interviews and no job. Saleh did a great job and was only interviewed by one team. Meanwhile Joe Judge and Matt Lafleur who were position coaches get HC jobs. Kingsbury was a failure at the college level and gets HC job. My point is when we have black coaches that are clearly qualified they still get passed over by white coaches who are less qualified. A minority coach with the resume of Judge, or Kingsbury would never be hired. I didn't bring up Leftwhich b/c I don't believe he is qualified yet. I never once used the word racism. Could be prejudice and stereotyping. Just like 20 years ago the belief that black men weren't intelligent enough to be qb's. Slowly over time that has changed.
We all know there are more white canidates than minorities so more will be hired. Nobody is expecting it to be even ratio or even 70/30. But it's a clearly an issue when over the last 3 years only 3 minorities have been hired out of 19 openings.
You're right on all points. I agree. Of the list, it does seem like Bieniemy is due, if he's not hired next off season, then that will be unacceptable, not that to a degree it's not already unacceptable, I just don't this is proposal is the way to fix it.
Maybe there should be draft picks tsken away when you hire lame ducks like Tomsula, lol.
Originally posted by ChicoCorrales:
You're right on all points. I agree. Of the list, it does seem like Bieniemy is due, if he's not hired next off season, then that will be unacceptable, not that to a degree it's not already unacceptable, I just don't this is proposal is the way to fix it.
Maybe there should be draft picks tsken away when you hire lame ducks like Tomsula, lol.
Quoting because you were the last in the bieniemy chain.
Whst he has failing for him is a SB team that has played late in the season. And i am not 100% sure, but i doubt he has a bunch of retired coaches willing to come work 1 year to fill gaps. And an extensive list of current coaches he has worked with.
The bill belicheck tree is massive, and it shares a lot with most of the bill parcells branches.
It isnt quite the same with the bill walsh tree. The walsh tree is pretty much dead. The WCO is now mostly the holmgren tree, And it is dying.
What that was about is. A team can have legitimate concerns about hiring a coach in February who may not be able to fill a staff with people he has direct experience with, or even 2 degrees of experience.
The answer is in PHX's post above and in his earlier posts in this thread. That is how you do it. For all coaches, really.
Did i hear right when several yrs back Dave Shaw was being considered for a HC slot in NFL and turned it down because he had such a great job at Stanford?
Originally posted by glorydayz:
Seems like you are saying racism is here, it's not good but don't bring it up and don't do anything about it?
That's cause you're trying to create a narrative instead of actually finding out my position.
I've already said in this thread that I think we could start a program to help minority coaches get noticed and more qualified. The NFL has plenty of resources to make that happen. I think the league should probably be involved somehow observing coaching hires to investigate if their is any evidence of racial bias. Being that there are so few head coaching positions... I don't see how that would be a bad idea.
I believe any profession should strive to have equal representation of races... especially ones with a majority like black people do in the NFL.
That's not the same as saying having a majority white front office is a bad thing or that it is proof of mainly racism alone.
Minority coaches are more than qualified, ending racist practices would simply provide a fair opportunity.
This is a microcosm of institutionalized racism in our society being played out in the NFL. The NFL should be more responsible when you look at their workforce.
Your assumption that African Americans need to be trained up in order to do certain jobs is funny, because when slavery was alive and well in the United States, there was a %100 employment rate for African Americans. Hence how there are many lower level opportunities abound, just don't try to climb the latter. Successful African Americans are most often given or have taken opportunities and ran with them, you would have more of this if there were more opportunities for African Americans in this society.
Oh, and I didn't create the narrative on racism. Just remember how it all went down...
What's ACTUALLY funny is you're trying to change what I said so you can argue against a position I don't hold. It's embarrassing so just stop.
What I meant was that the NFL could start a program promoting and training minority coaches. I never said they weren't qualified already because obviously we already have good NFL coaches, head coaches, and front office members on this team and throughout NFL history.
You might think that's not enough but you also haven't given anything tangible to work with other then try to give me a history lesson and try to make my words look racist when they're not.
What would you do? Because other then Pheonix's ideas I haven't heard much from the pro bribing draft pick camp.
Before I go in on the bold I'd like to get a better understanding on what you mean by "training minority coaches".
Exactly what it sounds like. You help minority coaches become overqualified then they maybe already are compared to other candidates. I don't see how saying helping minority coaches improve... regardless of their ability to coach already, is a bad thing.
Cause to me... the only thing that matters is the quality of coaching. Bribing owners to hire minorities does not incentivize them to hire the best candidates.
And that's a problem in my opinion.
So let me get this straight: make already qualified Black coaches overqualified in order to get a fair comparison to other candidates? And you don't see the fundamental absurdity with that position? I truly hope I'm misunderstanding you. If such a "training" program existed it would be an even worse commentary on the NFL owners.
Firstly, it makes a terrible assumption that the already Black coaches have to be better trained for a job they already qualify for.
Secondly, the mere existence of such training basically not only concedes racial bias against Black coaches, but it panders to their bias by telling, again, already qualified Black candidates, that they must certify themselves to being overqualified in order to be even considered comparable to white candidates.
Lastly, the mere fact that such a drastic proposal is even advanced in the first place speak loud volumes about the strength of NFL owners bias against Black coaches. For me, the proposal itself is irrelevant. It's why the proposal even has to be uttered.
You are misunderstanding me and I think it's on purpose just like the previous responses. I never said that they need to be overqualified to get a job. I'm saying it wouldn't hurt to have that program and having more minority coaches is the goal, correct? So why is saying we should promote them controversial?
I'm trying to find a solution when there isn't a clear path forward. I'm tired of my ideas to be nitpicked and my words being changed because three or more of you want to change this discussion to one of hatred and all about "institutional racism" instead of seeking a solution.
It is a joke that this had to be proposed. It's embarrassing for the NFL and black people alike. How would you feel being hired but knowing you might have been hired just because your team gets a higher draft pick compensation? That's not fair to any coach to deal with.
So as I've asked my last few posts... what would you do?
Cause I've posted a list of potential minority head coaches with roughly 15-20 spots I feel aren't secure long term. But it's not a long enough list for me to say it's all racism at work here. That not only gives no solution but creates "us vs them" mindsets that are clearly evident in just they way I've been responded to after being very respectful myself.
I only care about 1. Equality (not equity) and 2. Finding a way to help minorities get jobs Maybe it's like someone else said... it starts from the bottom up with lower level coaching positions, maybe they can enforce a stricter Rooney rule to allow them to get more chances in their young careers. I see the loopholes and think they should do about
it like what I already proposed.
But I would love to hear some ideas or solutions.
If you and others want to talk more about a framework of racism being the sole reason for these non hires without evidence or solutions while pretending I even care for one second about race... You've made up your own mind and I'm done here.
When you said:
You help minority coaches become overqualified then they maybe already are compared to other candidates. I don't see how saying helping minority coaches improve... regardless of their ability to coach already, is a bad thing.
. . . it sure looked to me like you were advocating for having a training program for already qualified Black coaches. But my apologies if that wasn't what you were meaning to say.
Now, what would I do? I'm so glad you asked that question:
Remove tax exemption
Have anti-trust laws truly enforced
Increase congressional oversite of ALL major sports player-ownership relations, in particular make all labor agreements subject to congressional approval
Make NFL front office and HC hiring subject to EEOC standard
Mandate that HC jobs go only to NFL coordinators and former NFL HC's
Quotas – fine and take away draft picks for organizations that has a FO and coaching staff below 30% African-Americans (excluding women)
Institute a HC hiring advisory board that owners be mandated to consult when considering HC candidates (paid for by owners, but staffed and administered by current NFL vets of at least 7 years and player reps)
Strengthen the Rooney Rule to include coordinators: 1 Black candidate for all coordinator positions and increase it to 2 for HC candidates
Remember, you asked
Look, I cannot stand that NFL owners have a blatant bias against Black coaches. I have long despised how NFL owners are allowed to operate as modern day slave masters. So long as they are allowed to operate as they do Black NFL coaches will continue to find it difficult to become head coaches in the NFL, no matter how overqualified they may be.
The Rooney Rule was established in 2003. Four years later in 2007 the SB was being played by 2 Black HC's, a year that had 6 Black HC's. Since then the number of Black HC's have steadily declined. Who among us think that's an accident? Did Black coaches somehow forget how to coach? Massive change has to come in order to force equality. Now, I don't really think that the latest proposal will do much to bring that about, but I'll take it. In any event NFL owners aren't going to change unless they are forced to. Period!!
Took me a while to respond I'm in charge of moving our company within the next 4 months haven't had much time.
I just need you and others stop changing my words to fit some anti-black narrative and we're good. I don't want to keep defending a position that I don't hold, so this is the last time I will.
You said, "make already qualified Black coaches overqualified in order to get a fair comparison to other candidates?... it makes a terrible assumption that the already Black coaches have to be better trained for a job they already qualify for."
All I've said so far was that we could start a program to develop minority coaches. I literally used the word "overqualified" which admits some candidates might already be qualified. I never said they HAVE to be overqualified. In what world do you actually see your comments as a fair summary of my words?
You also said, "If such a "training" program existed it would be an even worse commentary on the NFL owners".
So let me get this straight... you want to criticize my idea of promoting minority candidates but forcing teams to have a certain amount of coaches based solely on skin color is ideal according to you?
Honestly, I see that logic extremely inconsistent but I want to make this clear. I don't care that we see differently on this issue. I'm glad you posted some ideas and even though I can already tell you that I agree with some and disagree on others,.. this is where the discussion should go. Because before I get into any more specifics on those ideas you cannot honestly say that I've tried to be anti-minority on any of my points.
Ok, you say:
All I've said so far was that we could start a program to develop minority coaches. I literally used the word "overqualified" which admits some candidates might already be qualified. I never said they HAVE to be overqualified. In what world do you actually see your comments as a fair summary of my words?
See, the bold is the problem I had in the first place. That statement makes a terrible assumption - that the development of Black coaches is what's lacking and thus explains why Black coaches aren't getting these jobs. The fundamental problem with programs to develop Black coaches is that Black coaching development IS NOT - AND HAS NEVER BEEN - THE PROBLEM!!! There are countless Black coaches and personnel guys who are very developed and more than capable. This isn't a developmental problem of Black coaches, this is a problem of owners having a problem with Black men running their teams and personnel, and by extension many white coaches with a problem giving Black coaches an opportunity to design and call their offenses. This is an opportunity problem, not a developmental problem. And that's the issue that I have.
So let me get this straight... you want to criticize my idea of promoting minority candidates but forcing teams to have a certain amount of coaches based solely on skin color is ideal according to you?
No, you're promoting developmental programs for Black coaches. And yes, I am promoting forced equality, and I'm promoting it because it has been clearly shown throughout American history to the present day that leaving rich white folk to their own devices will result in all manner of inequality.
Again, the problem that I have with the programs its that it assumes that the Black coach is the problem. Rather than address the problem (the owners bias) you're addressing the affected party (the Black coach). Addressing the Black coach solves nothing, no matter how well intentioned. If we really want to address this issue the owners bias against Black coaches must be attacked. Otherwise, respectfully, we might as well just shut up about this and move on.
Originally posted by glorydayz:
Seems like you are saying racism is here, it's not good but don't bring it up and don't do anything about it?
That's cause you're trying to create a narrative instead of actually finding out my position.
I've already said in this thread that I think we could start a program to help minority coaches get noticed and more qualified. The NFL has plenty of resources to make that happen. I think the league should probably be involved somehow observing coaching hires to investigate if their is any evidence of racial bias. Being that there are so few head coaching positions... I don't see how that would be a bad idea.
I believe any profession should strive to have equal representation of races... especially ones with a majority like black people do in the NFL.
That's not the same as saying having a majority white front office is a bad thing or that it is proof of mainly racism alone.
Minority coaches are more than qualified, ending racist practices would simply provide a fair opportunity.
This is a microcosm of institutionalized racism in our society being played out in the NFL. The NFL should be more responsible when you look at their workforce.
Your assumption that African Americans need to be trained up in order to do certain jobs is funny, because when slavery was alive and well in the United States, there was a %100 employment rate for African Americans. Hence how there are many lower level opportunities abound, just don't try to climb the latter. Successful African Americans are most often given or have taken opportunities and ran with them, you would have more of this if there were more opportunities for African Americans in this society.
Oh, and I didn't create the narrative on racism. Just remember how it all went down...
What's ACTUALLY funny is you're trying to change what I said so you can argue against a position I don't hold. It's embarrassing so just stop.
What I meant was that the NFL could start a program promoting and training minority coaches. I never said they weren't qualified already because obviously we already have good NFL coaches, head coaches, and front office members on this team and throughout NFL history.
You might think that's not enough but you also haven't given anything tangible to work with other then try to give me a history lesson and try to make my words look racist when they're not.
What would you do? Because other then Pheonix's ideas I haven't heard much from the pro bribing draft pick camp.
Before I go in on the bold I'd like to get a better understanding on what you mean by "training minority coaches".
Exactly what it sounds like. You help minority coaches become overqualified then they maybe already are compared to other candidates. I don't see how saying helping minority coaches improve... regardless of their ability to coach already, is a bad thing.
Cause to me... the only thing that matters is the quality of coaching. Bribing owners to hire minorities does not incentivize them to hire the best candidates.
And that's a problem in my opinion.
So let me get this straight: make already qualified Black coaches overqualified in order to get a fair comparison to other candidates? And you don't see the fundamental absurdity with that position? I truly hope I'm misunderstanding you. If such a "training" program existed it would be an even worse commentary on the NFL owners.
Firstly, it makes a terrible assumption that the already Black coaches have to be better trained for a job they already qualify for.
Secondly, the mere existence of such training basically not only concedes racial bias against Black coaches, but it panders to their bias by telling, again, already qualified Black candidates, that they must certify themselves to being overqualified in order to be even considered comparable to white candidates.
Lastly, the mere fact that such a drastic proposal is even advanced in the first place speak loud volumes about the strength of NFL owners bias against Black coaches. For me, the proposal itself is irrelevant. It's why the proposal even has to be uttered.
You are misunderstanding me and I think it's on purpose just like the previous responses. I never said that they need to be overqualified to get a job. I'm saying it wouldn't hurt to have that program and having more minority coaches is the goal, correct? So why is saying we should promote them controversial?
I'm trying to find a solution when there isn't a clear path forward. I'm tired of my ideas to be nitpicked and my words being changed because three or more of you want to change this discussion to one of hatred and all about "institutional racism" instead of seeking a solution.
It is a joke that this had to be proposed. It's embarrassing for the NFL and black people alike. How would you feel being hired but knowing you might have been hired just because your team gets a higher draft pick compensation? That's not fair to any coach to deal with.
So as I've asked my last few posts... what would you do?
Cause I've posted a list of potential minority head coaches with roughly 15-20 spots I feel aren't secure long term. But it's not a long enough list for me to say it's all racism at work here. That not only gives no solution but creates "us vs them" mindsets that are clearly evident in just they way I've been responded to after being very respectful myself.
I only care about 1. Equality (not equity) and 2. Finding a way to help minorities get jobs Maybe it's like someone else said... it starts from the bottom up with lower level coaching positions, maybe they can enforce a stricter Rooney rule to allow them to get more chances in their young careers. I see the loopholes and think they should do about
it like what I already proposed.
But I would love to hear some ideas or solutions.
If you and others want to talk more about a framework of racism being the sole reason for these non hires without evidence or solutions while pretending I even care for one second about race... You've made up your own mind and I'm done here.
When you said:
You help minority coaches become overqualified then they maybe already are compared to other candidates. I don't see how saying helping minority coaches improve... regardless of their ability to coach already, is a bad thing.
. . . it sure looked to me like you were advocating for having a training program for already qualified Black coaches. But my apologies if that wasn't what you were meaning to say.
Now, what would I do? I'm so glad you asked that question:
Remove tax exemption
Have anti-trust laws truly enforced
Increase congressional oversite of ALL major sports player-ownership relations, in particular make all labor agreements subject to congressional approval
Make NFL front office and HC hiring subject to EEOC standard
Mandate that HC jobs go only to NFL coordinators and former NFL HC's
Quotas – fine and take away draft picks for organizations that has a FO and coaching staff below 30% African-Americans (excluding women)
Institute a HC hiring advisory board that owners be mandated to consult when considering HC candidates (paid for by owners, but staffed and administered by current NFL vets of at least 7 years and player reps)
Strengthen the Rooney Rule to include coordinators: 1 Black candidate for all coordinator positions and increase it to 2 for HC candidates
Remember, you asked
Look, I cannot stand that NFL owners have a blatant bias against Black coaches. I have long despised how NFL owners are allowed to operate as modern day slave masters. So long as they are allowed to operate as they do Black NFL coaches will continue to find it difficult to become head coaches in the NFL, no matter how overqualified they may be.
The Rooney Rule was established in 2003. Four years later in 2007 the SB was being played by 2 Black HC's, a year that had 6 Black HC's. Since then the number of Black HC's have steadily declined. Who among us think that's an accident? Did Black coaches somehow forget how to coach? Massive change has to come in order to force equality. Now, I don't really think that the latest proposal will do much to bring that about, but I'll take it. In any event NFL owners aren't going to change unless they are forced to. Period!!
Took me a while to respond I'm in charge of moving our company within the next 4 months haven't had much time.
I just need you and others stop changing my words to fit some anti-black narrative and we're good. I don't want to keep defending a position that I don't hold, so this is the last time I will.
You said, "make already qualified Black coaches overqualified in order to get a fair comparison to other candidates?... it makes a terrible assumption that the already Black coaches have to be better trained for a job they already qualify for."
All I've said so far was that we could start a program to develop minority coaches. I literally used the word "overqualified" which admits some candidates might already be qualified. I never said they HAVE to be overqualified. In what world do you actually see your comments as a fair summary of my words?
You also said, "If such a "training" program existed it would be an even worse commentary on the NFL owners".
So let me get this straight... you want to criticize my idea of promoting minority candidates but forcing teams to have a certain amount of coaches based solely on skin color is ideal according to you?
Honestly, I see that logic extremely inconsistent but I want to make this clear. I don't care that we see differently on this issue. I'm glad you posted some ideas and even though I can already tell you that I agree with some and disagree on others,.. this is where the discussion should go. Because before I get into any more specifics on those ideas you cannot honestly say that I've tried to be anti-minority on any of my points.
Ok, you say:
All I've said so far was that we could start a program to develop minority coaches. I literally used the word "overqualified" which admits some candidates might already be qualified. I never said they HAVE to be overqualified. In what world do you actually see your comments as a fair summary of my words?
See, the bold is the problem I had in the first place. That statement makes a terrible assumption - that the development of Black coaches is what's lacking and thus explains why Black coaches aren't getting these jobs. The fundamental problem with programs to develop Black coaches is that Black coaching development IS NOT - AND HAS NEVER BEEN - THE PROBLEM!!! There are countless Black coaches and personnel guys who are very developed and more than capable. This isn't a developmental problem of Black coaches, this is a problem of owners having a problem with Black men running their teams and personnel, and by extension many white coaches with a problem giving Black coaches an opportunity to design and call their offenses. This is an opportunity problem, not a developmental problem. And that's the issue that I have.
So let me get this straight... you want to criticize my idea of promoting minority candidates but forcing teams to have a certain amount of coaches based solely on skin color is ideal according to you?
No, you're promoting developmental programs for Black coaches. And yes, I am promoting forced equality, and I'm promoting it because it has been clearly shown throughout American history to the present day that leaving rich white folk to their own devices will result in all manner of inequality.
Again, the problem that I have with the programs its that it assumes that the Black coach is the problem. Rather than address the problem (the owners bias) you're addressing the affected party (the Black coach). Addressing the Black coach solves nothing, no matter how well intentioned. If we really want to address this issue the owners bias against Black coaches must be attacked. Otherwise, respectfully, we might as well just shut up about this and move on.
You can disagree with me that starting a program to develop minority candidates will affect their rate of employment but you cannot pretend like I'm saying that their ability to coach is the ONLY factor into their representation around the league. I never said that once. You're making the leap to say that is my view and it's not, which is why discussing this issue with you has been so unproductive and others on here who would rather slander my words then discuss the actual issue at hand.
A couple things:
1. "Forced equality" is not equality. It's equity. You say you want equality of opportunity but in reality you just want more black head coaches regardless of their ability. Because regardless with how prevalent racism is... that's your proposed solution. The problem with this is that in practicality you humiliate black coaches when they get hired because they know they may not have actually earned the position. That's just not the way I think we can eradicate racism in the NFL.
2. You also contradict yourself when you say that starting a program would be embarrassing but you're in favor of forcing teams to hire minority coaches. I really don't understand that logic. I would think forcing a tech company to hire someone regardless of their ability would be worse than providing training to them regardless of their ability.
With everything going on happening I've been reluctant to go on the internet at all. There's a lot of hate and negativity going on in the world so identifying what is and isn't racism and discussing it is very important to me. It's frustrating to not be able to talk specifics about how to help this issue and instead I'm being portrayed as someone who doesn't care about minorities and you're pretending like I think racism is/has never been a factor when it clearly has. I think we need to find ways to promote minority coaches who may have no prior relationship with owners across the league because that is also a major factor in my opinion.
Even Stephan A Smith believes that the actual implementation of this rule would be a mistake. I can even get on board that proposing it may do some good in pressing the issue. I might agree with you that there could be some benefits to that.
If you wanna talk minority coaches who deserve shots at being a HC I'm down to continue with this topic. Other then that... having a discussion seems impossible with you since you continue to slander my stance and squash any hope for an honest discussion.
Originally posted by Waterbear:
You can disagree with me that starting a program to develop minority candidates will affect their rate of employment but you cannot pretend like I'm saying that their ability to coach is the ONLY factor into their representation around the league. I never said that once. You're making the leap to say that is my view and it's not, which is why discussing this issue with you has been so unproductive and others on here who would rather slander my words then discuss the actual issue at hand.
A couple things:
1. "Forced equality" is not equality. It's equity. You say you want equality of opportunity but in reality you just want more black head coaches regardless of their ability. Because regardless with how prevalent racism is... that's your proposed solution. The problem with this is that in practicality you humiliate black coaches when they get hired because they know they may not have actually earned the position. That's just not the way I think we can eradicate racism in the NFL.
2. You also contradict yourself when you say that starting a program would be embarrassing but you're in favor of forcing teams to hire minority coaches. I really don't understand that logic. I would think forcing a tech company to hire someone regardless of their ability would be worse than providing training to them regardless of their ability.
With everything going on happening I've been reluctant to go on the internet at all. There's a lot of hate and negativity going on in the world so identifying what is and isn't racism and discussing it is very important to me. It's frustrating to not be able to talk specifics about how to help this issue and instead I'm being portrayed as someone who doesn't care about minorities and you're pretending like I think racism is/has never been a factor when it clearly has. I think we need to find ways to promote minority coaches who may have no prior relationship with owners across the league because that is also a major factor in my opinion.
Even Stephan A Smith believes that the actual implementation of this rule would be a mistake. I can even get on board that proposing it may do some good in pressing the issue. I might agree with you that there could be some benefits to that.
If you wanna talk minority coaches who deserve shots at being a HC I'm down to continue with this topic. Other then that... having a discussion seems impossible with you since you continue to slander my stance and squash any hope for an honest discussion.
Where do I start. . .
You say you want equality of opportunity but in reality you just want more black head coaches regardless of their ability . . . . . that's your proposed solution.
I challenge you to show me what I said that gave you that asinine impression. I never said that, nor was I implying that. I am NOT an advocate of anyone occupying a job for which they do not qualify for, Black or white. (But as Black man in the corp America (IT) I can tell you that there are MANY white men occupying positions that they certainly don't deserve. I would know; I've have the dubious task of training many of them post-hire.) Please do not interpret my words.
You also contradict yourself when you say that starting a program would be embarrassing . . .
Again, I challenge you to show me where I said that. I do try hard to word myself carefully. So if there's something unclear feel free to ask for clarity. But whatever you do please don't interpret my words.
It's frustrating to not be able to talk specifics about how to help this issue and instead I'm being portrayed as someone who doesn't care about minorities and you're pretending like I think racism is/has never been a factor when it clearly has.
And again, show me where I'm portraying you as someone who don't care about "minorities", or that you think that racism isn't, or has never been, a factor. I have been very careful with responding only to what you're saying, not what I think you're saying. I have maintained that my issue with "training" Black coaches is that it assumes, IMHO, that Black coaches aren't getting HC jobs (and OC jobs) is because they're simply not qualified when everyone knows that's not the case.
Now, here's the real meat of my position (that's never addressed). Gonna say this again, only 3 short years after the Rooney Rules was adopted the NFL found itself in a SB with 2 Black HC's. Since then the number of Black HC's in the NFL has noticeably fallen through the floor. That was by no means an accident. Do we honestly think that Black coaches in the NFL suddenly forget how to coach, and now they need refresher or remedial courses to get considered by owners? Of course not!! Bottom line, in 2006 (a year with 7 Black HC's) NFL owners saw in horrifically clear fashion that Black coaches were more than capable, and thus have loop-holed the Rooney Rule to insure that'll never happen again. Frankly, I believe NFL owners would rather have loosing seasons than to have a repeat of 2006, or worse an NFL reality with Black coaches routinely out-performing white coaches. I propose to you that the 2006 season was an affront on white supremacy that every white NFL ownership felt intuitively.
No sir, my aim IS NOT to eradicate racism, as you say. I aim to counterit!! Endeavors to eradicate racism are futile, and a waste of energy. This is especially true for sectors of American society where very old, entrenched money is involved such as the NFL. So for me, I've long given up the idea that racism can be eradicated.
Oh yeah, Stephen A. Smith: you may not realize this but Mr. Smith is not that highly regarded in real Black America. In no way is his commentary and opinions reflective of the majority of Black America. So using him to buttress your point is actually a bit hollow. But personally, I think my plan would go far beyond the proposed rule though.
Originally posted by Waterbear:
You can disagree with me that starting a program to develop minority candidates will affect their rate of employment but you cannot pretend like I'm saying that their ability to coach is the ONLY factor into their representation around the league. I never said that once. You're making the leap to say that is my view and it's not, which is why discussing this issue with you has been so unproductive and others on here who would rather slander my words then discuss the actual issue at hand.
A couple things:
1. "Forced equality" is not equality. It's equity. You say you want equality of opportunity but in reality you just want more black head coaches regardless of their ability. Because regardless with how prevalent racism is... that's your proposed solution. The problem with this is that in practicality you humiliate black coaches when they get hired because they know they may not have actually earned the position. That's just not the way I think we can eradicate racism in the NFL.
2. You also contradict yourself when you say that starting a program would be embarrassing but you're in favor of forcing teams to hire minority coaches. I really don't understand that logic. I would think forcing a tech company to hire someone regardless of their ability would be worse than providing training to them regardless of their ability.
With everything going on happening I've been reluctant to go on the internet at all. There's a lot of hate and negativity going on in the world so identifying what is and isn't racism and discussing it is very important to me. It's frustrating to not be able to talk specifics about how to help this issue and instead I'm being portrayed as someone who doesn't care about minorities and you're pretending like I think racism is/has never been a factor when it clearly has. I think we need to find ways to promote minority coaches who may have no prior relationship with owners across the league because that is also a major factor in my opinion.
Even Stephan A Smith believes that the actual implementation of this rule would be a mistake. I can even get on board that proposing it may do some good in pressing the issue. I might agree with you that there could be some benefits to that.
If you wanna talk minority coaches who deserve shots at being a HC I'm down to continue with this topic. Other then that... having a discussion seems impossible with you since you continue to slander my stance and squash any hope for an honest discussion.
Where do I start. . .
You say you want equality of opportunity but in reality you just want more black head coaches regardless of their ability . . . . . that's your proposed solution.
I challenge you to show me what I said that gave you that asinine impression. I never said that, nor was I implying that. I am NOT an advocate of anyone occupying a job for which they do not qualify for, Black or white. (But as Black man in the corp America (IT) I can tell you that there are MANY white men occupying positions that they certainly don't deserve. I would know; I've have the dubious task of training many of them post-hire.) Please do not interpret my words.
You also contradict yourself when you say that starting a program would be embarrassing . . .
Again, I challenge you to show me where I said that. I do try hard to word myself carefully. So if there's something unclear feel free to ask for clarity. But whatever you do please don't interpret my words.
It's frustrating to not be able to talk specifics about how to help this issue and instead I'm being portrayed as someone who doesn't care about minorities and you're pretending like I think racism is/has never been a factor when it clearly has.
And again, show me where I'm portraying you as someone who don't care about "minorities", or that you think that racism isn't, or has never been, a factor. I have been very careful with responding only to what you're saying, not what I think you're saying. I have maintained that my issue with "training" Black coaches is that it assumes, IMHO, that Black coaches aren't getting HC jobs (and OC jobs) is because they're simply not qualified when everyone knows that's not the case.
Now, here's the real meat of my position (that's never addressed). Gonna say this again, only 3 short years after the Rooney Rules was adopted the NFL found itself in a SB with 2 Black HC's. Since then the number of Black HC's in the NFL has noticeably fallen through the floor. That was by no means an accident. Do we honestly think that Black coaches in the NFL suddenly forget how to coach, and now they need refresher or remedial courses to get considered by owners? Of course not!! Bottom line, in 2006 (a year with 7 Black HC's) NFL owners saw in horrifically clear fashion that Black coaches were more than capable, and thus have loop-holed the Rooney Rule to insure that'll never happen again. Frankly, I believe NFL owners would rather have loosing seasons than to have a repeat of 2006, or worse an NFL reality with Black coaches routinely out-performing white coaches. I propose to you that the 2006 season was an affront on white supremacy that every white NFL ownership felt intuitively.
No sir, my aim IS NOT to eradicate racism, as you say. I aim to counterit!! Endeavors to eradicate racism are futile, and a waste of energy. This is especially true for sectors of American society where very old, entrenched money is involved such as the NFL. So for me, I've long given up the idea that racism can be eradicated.
Oh yeah, Stephen A. Smith: you may not realize this but Mr. Smith is not that highly regarded in real Black America. In no way is his commentary and opinions reflective of the majority of Black America. So using him to buttress your point is actually a bit hollow. But personally, I think my plan would go far beyond the proposed rule though.
1. "I challenge you to show me what I said that gave you that asinine impression. I never said that, nor was I implying that. I am NOT an advocate of anyone occupying a job for which they do not qualify for, "
You proposed this: "Quotas – fine and take away draft picks for organizations that has a FO and coaching staff below 30% African-Americans (excluding women)"
How do those two things not contradict themselves? How can you force teams to keep a quota while also saying they should hire who's best fit for the job every job opening?
2. In regards to me saying you said a program for minority coaches would be embarrassing, "Again, I challenge you to show me where I said that. I do try hard to word myself carefully. So if there's something unclear feel free to ask for clarity. But whatever you do please don't interpret my words"
You said earlier, "If such a "training" program existed it would be an even worse commentary on the NFL owners"
Is it not worse commentary then your proposed quota or is it? You did not say "embarrassing" but that is your general stance is it not?
3. "I have been very careful with responding only to what you're saying, not what I think you're saying."
Glorydayz said, "Your assumption that African Americans need to be trained up in order to do certain jobs is funny"
Then you said, "That statement makes a terrible assumption - that the development of Black coaches is what's lacking and thus explains why Black coaches aren't getting these jobs."
Idk how much more hypocritical you can get. I mean... do you really not see that?
I never said that all minorities need help... but I'm under the assumption that any group regardless of their identity can benefit from training and that any group has a spectrum of ability like rising potentials in coaches like Eric Bieniemy to failed head coaches like Hue Jackson. You're not actually responding to what I'm saying you're responding to an admitted assumption of your own that I don't believe is true.
4. "I propose to you that the 2006 season was an affront on white supremacy that every white NFL ownership felt intuitively"
That's a pretty bold statement do you have any evidence for this? Not saying it doesn't exist but I'm unfamiliar with what happened to those group of minority coaches.
5. " Stephen A. Smith: you may not realize this but Mr. Smith is not that highly regarded in real Black America. In no way is his commentary and opinions reflective of the majority of Black America"
I really don't care if you respect Smith that wasn't the point. I was trying to point out that it is insulting to black coaches and I think we are lying to ourselves saying enough has been done to promote minority coaches.
fair
