Mac Jones-QB-Jaguars

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by frenchmov:

Originally posted by NCommand:
And by years and years, you mean, Russell Wilson.

How has extreme mobility and athleticism been the X-factor over years and years? Maybe in 10 more that'll prove correct but right now, it hasn't helped anyone over the top more than excellent mobility WITHIN the pocket to which, you don't need to be a hyper-athletic QB to do.

Name a top 5 QB over the past 10 years that had mediocre mobility and an average arm. I'll save you the time: they don't exist in today's NFL.

I think the issue you have is you think it's one or the other: if a QB is fast & has a great arm he can't have vision or pocket presence. This isn't true.

My point is if you have pocket presence and an average arm, eventually it's going to hamstring you. You then literally have to be perfect every time at that point and it's just not realistic to expect that

You're massively confusing pocket presence/mobility and instincts with athleticism.

Like I've showed you before in here, the average number of times off schedule plays happen is 4 times per game and that's WITH a small contingency of QB's inflating that number as they're more willing to break the pocket. You can be mobile or immobile and still successfully complete off schedule plays too.

Therefore, 95% of the players are within structure and within the pocket. Mobility within the pocket >>>>>>>> athleticism outside the pocket. And it's not even close.

Therefore, an unathletic QB can still find tons of successful in the NFL as long as he possesses excellent pocket mobility. And that's what you're seeing with Mac. And that's not really a skill you can just learn. It's a feel. An instinct.

The flip side is you can be ultra athletic and have poor pocket presence/mobility and take tons of sacks and hits and turnovers (fumbles). You saw that with Trey last week.

Now, show me your athletic QB with poor pocket mobility at the NFL. The athletic QB's who didn't have great pocket presence are long gone. They don't last long. Nobody talks about those.

The ones that remain today all have pocket mobility as well but top end athleticism isn't a requirement for that. You're focused on the 5%. We're focused on the 95% that draws success at the NFL level.

And if Trey doesn't develop that top level pocket presence and mobility at the NFL level, he won't last long either. No amount of athleticism will counter that.

Great, great post NC.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by frenchmov:

Originally posted by NCommand:
And by years and years, you mean, Russell Wilson.

How has extreme mobility and athleticism been the X-factor over years and years? Maybe in 10 more that'll prove correct but right now, it hasn't helped anyone over the top more than excellent mobility WITHIN the pocket to which, you don't need to be a hyper-athletic QB to do.

Name a top 5 QB over the past 10 years that had mediocre mobility and an average arm. I'll save you the time: they don't exist in today's NFL.

I think the issue you have is you think it's one or the other: if a QB is fast & has a great arm he can't have vision or pocket presence. This isn't true.

My point is if you have pocket presence and an average arm, eventually it's going to hamstring you. You then literally have to be perfect every time at that point and it's just not realistic to expect that

You're massively confusing pocket presence/mobility and instincts with athleticism.

Like I've showed you before in here, the average number of times off schedule plays happen is 4 times per game and that's WITH a small contingency of QB's inflating that number as they're more willing to break the pocket. You can be mobile or immobile and still successfully complete off schedule plays too.

Therefore, 95% of the players are within structure and within the pocket. Mobility within the pocket >>>>>>>> athleticism outside the pocket. And it's not even close.

Therefore, an unathletic QB can still find tons of successful in the NFL as long as he possesses excellent pocket mobility. And that's what you're seeing with Mac. And that's not really a skill you can just learn. It's a feel. An instinct.

The flip side is you can be ultra athletic and have poor pocket presence/mobility and take tons of sacks and hits and turnovers (fumbles). You saw that with Trey last week.

Now, show me your athletic QB with poor pocket mobility at the NFL. The athletic QB's who didn't have great pocket presence are long gone. They don't last long. Nobody talks about those.

The ones that remain today all have pocket mobility as well but top end athleticism isn't a requirement for that. You're focused on the 5%. We're focused on the 95% that draws success at the NFL level.

And if Trey doesn't develop that top level pocket presence and mobility at the NFL level, he won't last long either. No amount of athleticism will counter that.

Pocket awareness and manipulation are extremely important. It was my favorite thing about Mac and why I still think he is going to be special. The biggest thing that gives me a little hope that I might have been wrong about Trey, is I don't remember when watching Trey coming away thinking he had poor awareness. I remember coming away not liking his experience level( in terms of numbers of throws and competition ) and inconsistent accuracy as reasons I didn't like him. . Watching Trey in the one pre-season game, I think only one sack was due to poor awareness. The other three were quick pressures that I think most QBs would have struggled against. So I want to see more with him before I say he has poor pocket awareness or manipulation. This is the biggest reason I want him getting as many reps as early as possible though. If he does have poor pocket skills, The only way to really improve in this area is by seeing actual defenders trying to sack you. With his level of competition in college, he has never seen defenders who move anything like NFL players. I wanted to go with the already complete product in Mac but they didn't draft that guy. We picked the least experienced rawest QB and we will see if they can turn him into something special. I am hoping he turns out something like Josh Allen, as he does remind me of him some. IMO We should put Trey out there as soon as possible and let him get that expereince.

Originally posted by NCommand:
You're massively confusing pocket presence/mobility and instincts with athleticism.

Like I've showed you before in here, the average number of times off schedule plays happen is 4 times per game and that's WITH a small contingency of QB's inflating that number as they're more willing to break the pocket. You can be mobile or immobile and still successfully complete off schedule plays too.

Therefore, 95% of the players are within structure and within the pocket. Mobility within the pocket >>>>>>>> athleticism outside the pocket. And it's not even close.

Therefore, an unathletic QB can still find tons of successful in the NFL as long as he possesses excellent pocket mobility. And that's what you're seeing with Mac. And that's not really a skill you can just learn. It's a feel. An instinct.

The flip side is you can be ultra athletic and have poor pocket presence/mobility and take tons of sacks and hits and turnovers (fumbles). You saw that with Trey last week.

Now, show me your athletic QB with poor pocket mobility at the NFL. The athletic QB's who didn't have great pocket presence are long gone. They don't last long. Nobody talks about those.

The ones that remain today all have pocket mobility as well but top end athleticism isn't a requirement for that. You're focused on the 5%. We're focused on the 95% that draws success at the NFL level.

And if Trey doesn't develop that top level pocket presence and mobility at the NFL level, he won't last long either. No amount of athleticism will counter that.

A couple things:

1. You wrote a novel about something i didn't disagree with. You can't just be athletic and nothing else. We agree! But wouldn't it be nice to have BOTH? Athletic AND can navigate the pocket? That's my point.

2. You still didn't address the arm strength problem. Show me an average armed QB who has had sustained success in todays NFL. You and I both know the league catches up, and at some point physical abilities need to be there.

Originally posted by NCommand:
You're massively confusing pocket presence/mobility and instincts with athleticism.

Like I've showed you before in here, the average number of times off schedule plays happen is 4 times per game and that's WITH a small contingency of QB's inflating that number as they're more willing to break the pocket. You can be mobile or immobile and still successfully complete off schedule plays too.

Therefore, 95% of the players are within structure and within the pocket. Mobility within the pocket >>>>>>>> athleticism outside the pocket. And it's not even close.

Therefore, an unathletic QB can still find tons of successful in the NFL as long as he possesses excellent pocket mobility. And that's what you're seeing with Mac. And that's not really a skill you can just learn. It's a feel. An instinct.

The flip side is you can be ultra athletic and have poor pocket presence/mobility and take tons of sacks and hits and turnovers (fumbles). You saw that with Trey last week.

Now, show me your athletic QB with poor pocket mobility at the NFL. The athletic QB's who didn't have great pocket presence are long gone. They don't last long. Nobody talks about those.

The ones that remain today all have pocket mobility as well but top end athleticism isn't a requirement for that. You're focused on the 5%. We're focused on the 95% that draws success at the NFL level.

And if Trey doesn't develop that top level pocket presence and mobility at the NFL level, he won't last long either. No amount of athleticism will counter that.

It's not just a matter of how many plays you will see off script during a game. It's that defenses have to gameplan for it. Defenses have to put atleast one guy just to shadow a possible run by the QB. You can't tell me that will be easier for a defense to gameplan for Trey Lance than it will for Mac Jones. Mac does one thing very well but it's still just one thing. I have a hard time believing that a good to great defense won't be able to shutdown Mac Jones. Mac will probally beat up on those really bad defenses that have no pass rush and lacks a good secondary. But when a QB has an average arm, Can't run,and can't throw much outside the pocket, They are very limited. Sure it had alot of success in College but he had a team like the Chiefs while playing against a teams that would equal the worst defense in the NFL. So basically it was like the Chiefs playing the Bengals week in and week out.

Now the one thing Mac has going for him is the Pats should have a top 5 Oline which will help him alot. Mac would be a disaster with the Niners because we don't have a top 5 Oline.

Originally posted by frenchmov:

Originally posted by NCommand:
You're massively confusing pocket presence/mobility and instincts with athleticism.

Like I've showed you before in here, the average number of times off schedule plays happen is 4 times per game and that's WITH a small contingency of QB's inflating that number as they're more willing to break the pocket. You can be mobile or immobile and still successfully complete off schedule plays too.

Therefore, 95% of the players are within structure and within the pocket. Mobility within the pocket >>>>>>>> athleticism outside the pocket. And it's not even close.

Therefore, an unathletic QB can still find tons of successful in the NFL as long as he possesses excellent pocket mobility. And that's what you're seeing with Mac. And that's not really a skill you can just learn. It's a feel. An instinct.

The flip side is you can be ultra athletic and have poor pocket presence/mobility and take tons of sacks and hits and turnovers (fumbles). You saw that with Trey last week.

Now, show me your athletic QB with poor pocket mobility at the NFL. The athletic QB's who didn't have great pocket presence are long gone. They don't last long. Nobody talks about those.

The ones that remain today all have pocket mobility as well but top end athleticism isn't a requirement for that. You're focused on the 5%. We're focused on the 95% that draws success at the NFL level.

And if Trey doesn't develop that top level pocket presence and mobility at the NFL level, he won't last long either. No amount of athleticism will counter that.

A couple things:

1. You wrote a novel about something i didn't disagree with. You can't just be athletic and nothing else. We agree! But wouldn't it be nice to have BOTH? Athletic AND can navigate the pocket? That's my point.

2. You still didn't address the arm strength problem. Show me an average armed QB who has had sustained success in todays NFL. You and I both know the league catches up, and at some point physical abilities need to be there.

Definitely.

I also wanted to point out that this thing we agree on is exactly why Kyle kept Trey in the pocket last game too.

Let's see how much he improves from that last game. Read that extra blitzer. Hit the hot read or check down. Take a tad bit of heat off it. Anticipate post snap coverages.

As to arm strength, I can't speak to that but Greg Cossell said that if you're playing at the NFL level, you already have the arm strength. Period. Some will have to throw with more anticipation and others won't (because of their arm strength).

Originally posted by JTB1974:
It's not just a matter of how many plays you will see off script during a game. It's that defenses have to gameplan for it. Defenses have to put atleast one guy just to shadow a possible run by the QB. You can't tell me that will be easier for a defense to gameplan for Trey Lance than it will for Mac Jones. Mac does one thing very well but it's still just one thing. I have a hard time believing that a good to great defense won't be able to shutdown Mac Jones. Mac will probally beat up on those really bad defenses that have no pass rush and lacks a good secondary. But when a QB has an average arm, Can't run,and can't throw much outside the pocket, They are very limited. Sure it had alot of success in College but he had a team like the Chiefs while playing against a teams that would equal the worst defense in the NFL. So basically it was like the Chiefs playing the Bengals week in and week out.

Now the one thing Mac has going for him is the Pats should have a top 5 Oline which will help him alot. Mac would be a disaster with the Niners because we don't have a top 5 Oline.

Mac actually made several off schedule plays that game too including a great one negated by a holding penalty. That's the other side nobody talks about. You don't have to be a supreme athlete to anticipate and avoid pressure and make an off schedule play.

You're simply talking about designed QB runs as becoming a prominent feature of an offense to where a DC then designates a spy. No DC is going to bother with that until it's become a big part of the offensive scheme in volume AND it has become successful.

Just look at Saleh vs. all the mobile QB's we played.

Trey definitely COULD become a major feature in our offense that way though. So that's exciting.

Fun talking philosophy with you all.

Originally posted by NCommand:
Definitely.

I also wanted to point out that this thing we agree on is exactly why Kyle kept Trey in the pocket last game too.

Let's see how much he improves from that last game. Read that extra blitzer. Hit the hot read or check down. Take a tad bit of heat off it. Anticipate post snap coverages.

As to arm strength, I can't speak to that but Greg Cossell said that if you're playing at the NFL level, you already have the arm strength. Period. Some will have to throw with more anticipation and others won't (because of their arm strength).

This is true. It's why when people posted the Mac deep throw and said "thought he had no arm?! Looool" my response is literally every QB in league history can make that throw and has at some point.

The reason mediocre armed QBs aren't elite is because then at that point there is 0 room for error. Your mechanics/anticipation must be perfect EVERY TIME and it's a bit much to expect that to happen every time. So when that inevitably doesn't happen (due to pressure, losing concentration, whatever) you now lack the physical arm to make up for it. It's not a coincidence that the elite QBs in the nfl today have above average arms or better.

Originally posted by JTB1974:
It's not just a matter of how many plays you will see off script during a game. It's that defenses have to gameplan for it. Defenses have to put atleast one guy just to shadow a possible run by the QB. You can't tell me that will be easier for a defense to gameplan for Trey Lance than it will for Mac Jones. Mac does one thing very well but it's still just one thing. I have a hard time believing that a good to great defense won't be able to shutdown Mac Jones. Mac will probally beat up on those really bad defenses that have no pass rush and lacks a good secondary. But when a QB has an average arm, Can't run,and can't throw much outside the pocket, They are very limited. Sure it had alot of success in College but he had a team like the Chiefs while playing against a teams that would equal the worst defense in the NFL. So basically it was like the Chiefs playing the Bengals week in and week out.

Now the one thing Mac has going for him is the Pats should have a top 5 Oline which will help him alot. Mac would be a disaster with the Niners because we don't have a top 5 Oline.

I think this O line may be better than you give them credit for. They were pretty good in 2019 with an aging Staley and a beat up center. Williams and Mack along with the others make a pretty formidable lone if they can stay together.

Originally posted by frenchmov:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Definitely.

I also wanted to point out that this thing we agree on is exactly why Kyle kept Trey in the pocket last game too.

Let's see how much he improves from that last game. Read that extra blitzer. Hit the hot read or check down. Take a tad bit of heat off it. Anticipate post snap coverages.

As to arm strength, I can't speak to that but Greg Cossell said that if you're playing at the NFL level, you already have the arm strength. Period. Some will have to throw with more anticipation and others won't (because of their arm strength).

This is true. It's why when people posted the Mac deep throw and said "thought he had no arm?! Looool" my response is literally every QB in league history can make that throw and has at some point.

The reason mediocre armed QBs aren't elite is because then at that point there is 0 room for error. Your mechanics/anticipation must be perfect EVERY TIME and it's a bit much to expect that to happen every time. So when that inevitably doesn't happen (due to pressure, losing concentration, whatever) you now lack the physical arm to make up for it. It's not a coincidence that the elite QBs in the nfl today have above average arms or better.

Yup, the flip side is if you don't have that incredible arm strength or athleticism, it forces you to read quicker, process faster, throw with anticipation better, trust your eyes, study, etc. whereas the athletic guy might rely more on throwing WHEN open, take more risks gunning it in there, taking off when not needed, etc. So there's a lot of ways to evaluate it. But no matter what, focus on the 95%. If you can win there, that's the key!

He's pretty good. I see this qb class being like last years wr class.

we might not have gotten the very best ones at the position in auiyuk and lance but they will be pretty darn good players in their own right

Originally posted by frenchmov:

Originally posted by NCommand:
You're massively confusing pocket presence/mobility and instincts with athleticism.

Like I've showed you before in here, the average number of times off schedule plays happen is 4 times per game and that's WITH a small contingency of QB's inflating that number as they're more willing to break the pocket. You can be mobile or immobile and still successfully complete off schedule plays too.

Therefore, 95% of the players are within structure and within the pocket. Mobility within the pocket >>>>>>>> athleticism outside the pocket. And it's not even close.

Therefore, an unathletic QB can still find tons of successful in the NFL as long as he possesses excellent pocket mobility. And that's what you're seeing with Mac. And that's not really a skill you can just learn. It's a feel. An instinct.

The flip side is you can be ultra athletic and have poor pocket presence/mobility and take tons of sacks and hits and turnovers (fumbles). You saw that with Trey last week.

Now, show me your athletic QB with poor pocket mobility at the NFL. The athletic QB's who didn't have great pocket presence are long gone. They don't last long. Nobody talks about those.

The ones that remain today all have pocket mobility as well but top end athleticism isn't a requirement for that. You're focused on the 5%. We're focused on the 95% that draws success at the NFL level.

And if Trey doesn't develop that top level pocket presence and mobility at the NFL level, he won't last long either. No amount of athleticism will counter that.

A couple things:

1. You wrote a novel about something i didn't disagree with. You can't just be athletic and nothing else. We agree! But wouldn't it be nice to have BOTH? Athletic AND can navigate the pocket? That's my point.

2. You still didn't address the arm strength problem. Show me an average armed QB who has had sustained success in todays NFL. You and I both know the league catches up, and at some point physical abilities need to be there.

Joe Montana

Originally posted by eastie:
Joe Montana

I wish it was the 1980s again!

Originally posted by eastie:

Originally posted by frenchmov:

Originally posted by NCommand:
You're massively confusing pocket presence/mobility and instincts with athleticism.

Like I've showed you before in here, the average number of times off schedule plays happen is 4 times per game and that's WITH a small contingency of QB's inflating that number as they're more willing to break the pocket. You can be mobile or immobile and still successfully complete off schedule plays too.

Therefore, 95% of the players are within structure and within the pocket. Mobility within the pocket >>>>>>>> athleticism outside the pocket. And it's not even close.

Therefore, an unathletic QB can still find tons of successful in the NFL as long as he possesses excellent pocket mobility. And that's what you're seeing with Mac. And that's not really a skill you can just learn. It's a feel. An instinct.

The flip side is you can be ultra athletic and have poor pocket presence/mobility and take tons of sacks and hits and turnovers (fumbles). You saw that with Trey last week.

Now, show me your athletic QB with poor pocket mobility at the NFL. The athletic QB's who didn't have great pocket presence are long gone. They don't last long. Nobody talks about those.

The ones that remain today all have pocket mobility as well but top end athleticism isn't a requirement for that. You're focused on the 5%. We're focused on the 95% that draws success at the NFL level.

And if Trey doesn't develop that top level pocket presence and mobility at the NFL level, he won't last long either. No amount of athleticism will counter that.

A couple things:

1. You wrote a novel about something i didn't disagree with. You can't just be athletic and nothing else. We agree! But wouldn't it be nice to have BOTH? Athletic AND can navigate the pocket? That's my point.

2. You still didn't address the arm strength problem. Show me an average armed QB who has had sustained success in todays NFL. You and I both know the league catches up, and at some point physical abilities need to be there.

Joe Montana

JOE is my all time FAVORITE player... but I doubt that he would have been THE GOAT had he been w/the Bears or been traded to Denver for John..