Mac Jones-QB-Jaguars

Originally posted by krizay:
As for the accuracy thing. Not sure why we are arguing my opinion. You have yours I have mine. No need in trying to change each others opinions.

Neither of us is alone on our opinions

But you haven't said what is your reason to reach that opinion?!?

Why I think accuracy has def be improved and several players have improved it bc accuracy often comes from right technique and footwork - both of those skills are attainable and can be developed with time and great coaching.

Originally posted by BamaNiner:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by BamaNiner:

Originally posted by krizay:

Originally posted by BamaNiner:
well last night it was the strong athletic qb killing the pocket passer, it's the exact opposite today. Lot of Hurts game in Lances

AND when Jimmy beats Dak today....and Stafford beats Murray tomorrow some of these folks will realize it's the better teams that win and not because the QB is athletic

Dak down to Jimmy.

Brady
Rodgers
Garoppolo
Stafford

ol' pocket passers still hanging in there. Burrow, Mahomes, Allen look nice too.

Bye Mac, Dak, Carr, Hurts...

Kyler can't get out of the pocket. Playoffs are a different animal.

You're stuck on mobility. Having an elite arm talent also helps - something Mac Jones lacks. That was another major flag as the reason why most of us didn't want Mac Jones.

Originally posted by BamaNiner:
Oh no, multiple posters on this site were adamant that you win in todays NFL with big strong fast qbs who can "play off schedule and make throws off platform". It's like they heard someone describe Mahomes and beat those phrases to death. In reality, unless you are Mike Vick, Lamar Jackson, or Josh "Paul Bunyan" Allen, you have to be elite from the the pocket to win big. You have to. Off schedule plays and off platform throws happen like 4 times a game in the postseason.

Originally posted by 4ML:
But you haven't said what is your reason to reach that opinion?!?

Why I think accuracy has def be improved and several players have improved it bc accuracy often comes from right technique and footwork - both of those skills are attainable and can be developed with time and great coaching.

I agree to a point. But when bullets starts flying they resort back to what they've been doing for 20+ years.

These guys have been throwing their same way for 20+ years. You ain't changing that in 2-4 months. Yea they can look good while they're working on it. Because that's the main objective. Once they get in the game or practice they are no longer concentrating on what it was they were working on. They resort back to what they've been for 20+ years.

Yes decision making and such can improve completion %. That doesn't necessarily mean they improved their accuracy.

Cam Newton's MVP season was littered with Kelvin Benjamin and Greg Olsen bailing him out on errant passes.

Derek Anderson's one good season in Cleveland was same as Cam, Braylon Edwards and Kellen Winslow bailed him out.

To me completion % doesn't tell the accuracy story. This offense especially is based off of YAC. You get more YAC on accurate, on target passes.

A lot of these 1st round QBs that "busts" are usually because they couldn't be fixed. They have the physical traits but couldn't figure out the rest.

I'm in no way saying that's what's going to happen to Trey. I'm just saying history shows you can have the physical attributes but that doesn't mean the other stuff will be learned.

Originally posted by 4ML:

Originally posted by BamaNiner:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by BamaNiner:

Originally posted by krizay:

Originally posted by BamaNiner:
well last night it was the strong athletic qb killing the pocket passer, it's the exact opposite today. Lot of Hurts game in Lances

AND when Jimmy beats Dak today....and Stafford beats Murray tomorrow some of these folks will realize it's the better teams that win and not because the QB is athletic

Dak down to Jimmy.

Brady
Rodgers
Garoppolo
Stafford

ol' pocket passers still hanging in there. Burrow, Mahomes, Allen look nice too.

Bye Mac, Dak, Carr, Hurts...

Kyler can't get out of the pocket. Playoffs are a different animal.

You're stuck on mobility. Having an elite arm talent also helps - something Mac Jones lacks. That was another major flag as the reason why most of us didn't want Mac Jones.

We're stuck on mobility because that's what we were told. You need a mobile QB in today's NFL. Not only that but mobile QBs open up the running game and the offense. We were led to believe that a running QB could mask a bad OL. How'd ARI, PHI DAL offenses look this weekend? How bout their running game?

As for Mac Jones arm talent. He proved even before he reached the NFL that he had enough arm talent. He just didn't have the arm strength of the top 4 guys in this draft but he has slightly above average arm strength. Same with his mobility, he doesn't have the speed or athleticism of the top guys in this draft but he again has above average athleticism.

Originally posted by BamaNiner:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by BamaNiner:

Originally posted by krizay:

Originally posted by BamaNiner:
well last night it was the strong athletic qb killing the pocket passer, it's the exact opposite today. Lot of Hurts game in Lances

AND when Jimmy beats Dak today....and Stafford beats Murray tomorrow some of these folks will realize it's the better teams that win and not because the QB is athletic

Dak down to Jimmy.

Brady
Rodgers
Garoppolo
Stafford

ol' pocket passers still hanging in there. Burrow, Mahomes, Allen look nice too.

Bye Mac, Dak, Carr, Hurts...

Kyler can't get out of the pocket. Playoffs are a different animal.

Yup, guess athleticism still can't transcend every other issue with a team. Still waiting for that to happen...

Originally posted by 4ML:

Originally posted by BamaNiner:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by BamaNiner:

Originally posted by krizay:

Originally posted by BamaNiner:
well last night it was the strong athletic qb killing the pocket passer, it's the exact opposite today. Lot of Hurts game in Lances

AND when Jimmy beats Dak today....and Stafford beats Murray tomorrow some of these folks will realize it's the better teams that win and not because the QB is athletic

Dak down to Jimmy.

Brady
Rodgers
Garoppolo
Stafford

ol' pocket passers still hanging in there. Burrow, Mahomes, Allen look nice too.

Bye Mac, Dak, Carr, Hurts...

Kyler can't get out of the pocket. Playoffs are a different animal.

You're stuck on mobility. Having an elite arm talent also helps - something Mac Jones lacks. That was another major flag as the reason why most of us didn't want Mac Jones.

Kyler also has an elite arm.

Originally posted by jcs:

Originally posted by 4ML:

Originally posted by BamaNiner:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by BamaNiner:

Originally posted by krizay:

Originally posted by BamaNiner:
well last night it was the strong athletic qb killing the pocket passer, it's the exact opposite today. Lot of Hurts game in Lances

AND when Jimmy beats Dak today....and Stafford beats Murray tomorrow some of these folks will realize it's the better teams that win and not because the QB is athletic

Dak down to Jimmy.

Brady
Rodgers
Garoppolo
Stafford

ol' pocket passers still hanging in there. Burrow, Mahomes, Allen look nice too.

Bye Mac, Dak, Carr, Hurts...

Kyler can't get out of the pocket. Playoffs are a different animal.

You're stuck on mobility. Having an elite arm talent also helps - something Mac Jones lacks. That was another major flag as the reason why most of us didn't want Mac Jones.

Kyler also has an elite arm.

Yep. He's fast and has a big time arm. His pocket presence is lol funny tho. He sacked himself a few times trying to navigate the pocket last night

Originally posted by BamaNiner:

Originally posted by jcs:

Originally posted by 4ML:

Originally posted by BamaNiner:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by BamaNiner:

Originally posted by krizay:

Originally posted by BamaNiner:
well last night it was the strong athletic qb killing the pocket passer, it's the exact opposite today. Lot of Hurts game in Lances

AND when Jimmy beats Dak today....and Stafford beats Murray tomorrow some of these folks will realize it's the better teams that win and not because the QB is athletic

Dak down to Jimmy.

Brady
Rodgers
Garoppolo
Stafford

ol' pocket passers still hanging in there. Burrow, Mahomes, Allen look nice too.

Bye Mac, Dak, Carr, Hurts...

Kyler can't get out of the pocket. Playoffs are a different animal.

You're stuck on mobility. Having an elite arm talent also helps - something Mac Jones lacks. That was another major flag as the reason why most of us didn't want Mac Jones.

Kyler also has an elite arm.

Yep. He's fast and has a big time arm. His pocket presence is lol funny tho. He sacked himself a few times trying to navigate the pocket last night

He's 5'7"... can't see over the line.

Different players win differently...what's wrong with wanting the complete package or a guy with a elite arm, size, & can move enough to make teams have to plan for it?

John Elway wasn't running around for 700 yards but absolutely played out of the pocket and gave his team a chance when s**t broke down. Same thing with Rogers, Favre, Young, McNair and a bunch of QBs in today's game.

I'll take the untapped potential and a young player who does have the IQ/drive to learn how to process in the pocket. He's not gonna have it all figured out tomorrow, but with Kyle and this roster he will improve and be put in positions to help the team win.

Jones IMO is a game manager with only so many tools in his tool belt...we will see how it goes in 3 or so years, maybe he will prove everyone wrong and be the next Brady, but I doubt it. Kyle went all in on a prospect that has the ability to be the next Josh Allen. Good on Kyle.

Originally posted by jcs:

Originally posted by 4ML:

Originally posted by BamaNiner:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by BamaNiner:

Originally posted by krizay:

Originally posted by BamaNiner:
well last night it was the strong athletic qb killing the pocket passer, it's the exact opposite today. Lot of Hurts game in Lances

AND when Jimmy beats Dak today....and Stafford beats Murray tomorrow some of these folks will realize it's the better teams that win and not because the QB is athletic

Dak down to Jimmy.

Brady
Rodgers
Garoppolo
Stafford

ol' pocket passers still hanging in there. Burrow, Mahomes, Allen look nice too.

Bye Mac, Dak, Carr, Hurts...

Kyler can't get out of the pocket. Playoffs are a different animal.

You're stuck on mobility. Having an elite arm talent also helps - something Mac Jones lacks. That was another major flag as the reason why most of us didn't want Mac Jones.

Kyler also has an elite arm.

Kyler Murray is also 24 and played in his first ever playoff game. Cardinals were limping towards the playoffs after starting 7-0.

ALSO - and very importantly - his HC is Kliff Kingsbury.

Originally posted by NYniner85:
Different players win differently...what's wrong with wanting the complete package or a guy with a elite arm, size, & can move enough to make teams have to plan for it?

John Elway wasn't running around for 700 yards but absolutely played out of the pocket and gave his team a chance when s**t broke down. Same thing with Rogers, Favre, Young, McNair and a bunch of QBs in today's game.

I'll take the untapped potential and a young player who does have the IQ/drive to learn how to process in the pocket. He's not gonna have it all figured out tomorrow, but with Kyle and this roster he will improve and be put in positions to help the team win.

Jones IMO is a game manager with only so many tools in his tool belt...we will see how it goes in 3 or so years, maybe he will prove everyone wrong and be the next Brady, but I doubt it. Kyle went all in on a prospect that has the ability to be the next Josh Allen. Good on Kyle.

Nothing wrong with wanting the complete package. As been said before. The issue the Jones side had was you and others were adamant that athletic QBs were the only way.

The argument continually went from wanting to needing.

Jones had/has above average arm and athleticism. He already has above average mental aspect with top notch accuracy. He isn't a QB you have to hope figures out the important aspects of playing QB. He was always going to succeed.

I get the fan base want for the total package. With Trey's arm and athleticism if he ever reaches Jones mental aspects and attain the accuracy that I'm told is attainable then yes sign me up.

However , history tells me he's unlikely to reach that ceiling that was created for him.

Originally posted by 4ML:
Kyler Murray is also 24 and played in his first ever playoff game. Cardinals were limping towards the playoffs after starting 7-0.

ALSO - and very importantly - his HC is Kliff Kingsbury.

None of this changes what we were told about athletic QBs.

Originally posted by krizay:

Originally posted by 4ML:
But you haven't said what is your reason to reach that opinion?!?

Why I think accuracy has def be improved and several players have improved it bc accuracy often comes from right technique and footwork - both of those skills are attainable and can be developed with time and great coaching.

I agree to a point. But when bullets starts flying they resort back to what they've been doing for 20+ years.

These guys have been throwing their same way for 20+ years. You ain't changing that in 2-4 months. Yea they can look good while they're working on it. Because that's the main objective. Once they get in the game or practice they are no longer concentrating on what it was they were working on. They resort back to what they've been for 20+ years.

Yes decision making and such can improve completion %. That doesn't necessarily mean they improved their accuracy.

Cam Newton's MVP season was littered with Kelvin Benjamin and Greg Olsen bailing him out on errant passes.

Derek Anderson's one good season in Cleveland was same as Cam, Braylon Edwards and Kellen Winslow bailed him out.

To me completion % doesn't tell the accuracy story. This offense especially is based off of YAC. You get more YAC on accurate, on target passes.

A lot of these 1st round QBs that "busts" are usually because they couldn't be fixed. They have the physical traits but couldn't figure out the rest.

I'm in no way saying that's what's going to happen to Trey. I'm just saying history shows you can have the physical attributes but that doesn't mean the other stuff will be learned.

Trey Lance has been playing QB for 4-5 years.

Cam went to the Superbowl as did Kap. They weren't the most accurate ever - but were accurate enough to win games in the playoffs. They struggled later in their career for various reasons - injuries to Cam - their own offense tried to make them into a pocket passer to limit hits (both of them) - not having elite work ethic after getting paid and/or inability to improve in the film room. Some QBs just reach their limits and defenses figure them out.

I think a lot of 1st round QBs are busts for a LOT of reasons. Often they make so much money - they lose hunger and drive for the game. To me - that's the no1 reason why 1st round QBs or any player for that matter doesn't reach anywhere close to their potential. Their are a lot of distractions and money and you have to surround yourself with right ppl away from the game. Also - being in the right system and having the right coaches around you in the beginning makes a huge difference as well.

Their have been dominant college QBs who had all the accuracy in the World - but failed in the NFL.

I think you can improve your accuracy a lot more than you can improve your arm strength and speed. This is why guys who have the elite arm - even when they're not the most accurate - get drafted before guys with accuracy but average arm strength.

Great rookie season. Led his team to the playoffs.