Mac Jones-QB-Jaguars

Originally posted by genus49:
Still fighting it huh? It's going to be fun seeing you join team McCorkle.

Just adding some truth to all of the silliness. Look if people like Jones for what he brings to the table that's cool. You don't have to poo poo on what NFL teams are currently valuing when picking QBs near the top of the draft now overall.

God given ability matters. You can learn the context of reading coverages pre/post snap. You can learn a playbook. Yes you need to find a guy who's willing to put in the time to do that....also a lot of these QB prospects were just running the offense they were told to run, doesn't make them dumb or incapable of running an offense like Jones did. Herbert/Watson are perfect examples of that...Lawrence didn't run some nuanced offense in Clemson, yet he's going #1 overall and I'm sure people wouldn't be upset in taking him.

Upside matters, what a player can become matters when drafting a guy at the top.

I've said all root for him (or anyone) that SF drafts.

Originally posted by AsianJeff:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by AsianJeff:
Mond in the 1st/2nd rounds is NOT good value.

agreed, I have a fear that is the direction they're gonna go though

I honestly don't see a lot of ways they can f**k up this draft. Regardless of trading or staying put, Fields/Lance/Mac/Slater/Ojulari/Surtain/Horn/VeraTucker/Pitts are who I can see being an option for the 49ers in the 1st. I can see Mills being valued over Mond.

Mond in the 1st would be a way to f**k up the draft.

They will not take a QB in rd 1..probably a corner. However, this FO has f**ked up drafts mostly with Rd 1 picks and drafting QBs. They will play it safe it round 1. Then take a QB in a later round who wont be on the roster in two years.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by genus49:
Still fighting it huh? It's going to be fun seeing you join team McCorkle.

Just adding some truth to all of the silliness. Look if people like Jones for what he brings to the table that's cool. You don't have to poo poo on what NFL teams are currently valuing when picking QBs near the top of the draft now overall.

God given ability matters. You can learn the context of reading coverages pre/post snap. You can learn a playbook. Yes you need to find a guy who's willing to put in the time to do that....also a lot of these QB prospects were just running the offense they were told to run, doesn't make them dumb or incapable of running an offense like Jones did. Herbert/Watson are perfect examples of that...Lawrence didn't run some nuanced offense in Clemson, yet he's going #1 overall and I'm sure people wouldn't be upset in taking him.

Upside matters, what a player can become matters when drafting a guy at the top.

I've said all root for him (or anyone) that SF drafts.

I know you've been watching football long enough to know God given ability isn't ALL that matters.

QBs who know where to go with the football and can get the ball there accurately still get it done. That won't change.

I find it ironic that after all the talk after our season ended how these athletic stud QBs with big arms and mobility can cover up for so many holes in a team this year that the SB was the perfect example of such a QB getting his ass handed to him and the winning QB being 43 year old pocket passer.

If that's not a reminder that those guys don't magically make everything better then I don't know what will be.

But you are right in a way. There's a reason I list my QB grades as Wilson/Fields/Jones/Lance but want us to draft them in the order of Wilson/Fields/Lance/Jones...because yes god given ability helps. And if Kyle Shanahan sees what he wants out of the guys who have more god given ability than Jones then I'd love having any of them here because the potential of them in Kyle's offense is exciting as hell.

BUT if I'm just grading players potential isn't something I can predict. Which is why I'll prefer a guy I can see can play the game consistently well at the things which have mattered for years.

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by genus49:
Still fighting it huh? It's going to be fun seeing you join team McCorkle.

Just adding some truth to all of the silliness. Look if people like Jones for what he brings to the table that's cool. You don't have to poo poo on what NFL teams are currently valuing when picking QBs near the top of the draft now overall.

God given ability matters. You can learn the context of reading coverages pre/post snap. You can learn a playbook. Yes you need to find a guy who's willing to put in the time to do that....also a lot of these QB prospects were just running the offense they were told to run, doesn't make them dumb or incapable of running an offense like Jones did. Herbert/Watson are perfect examples of that...Lawrence didn't run some nuanced offense in Clemson, yet he's going #1 overall and I'm sure people wouldn't be upset in taking him.

Upside matters, what a player can become matters when drafting a guy at the top.

I've said all root for him (or anyone) that SF drafts.

I know you've been watching football long enough to know God given ability isn't ALL that matters.

QBs who know where to go with the football and can get the ball there accurately still get it done. That won't change.

I find it ironic that after all the talk after our season ended how these athletic stud QBs with big arms and mobility can cover up for so many holes in a team this year that the SB was the perfect example of such a QB getting his ass handed to him and the winning QB being 43 year old pocket passer.

If that's not a reminder that those guys don't magically make everything better then I don't know what will be.

But you are right in a way. There's a reason I list my QB grades as Wilson/Fields/Jones/Lance but want us to draft them in the order of Wilson/Fields/Lance/Jones...because yes god given ability helps. And if Kyle Shanahan sees what he wants out of the guys who have more god given ability than Jones then I'd love having any of them here because the potential of them in Kyle's offense is exciting as hell.

BUT if I'm just grading players potential isn't something I can predict. Which is why I'll prefer a guy I can see can play the game consistently well at the things which have mattered for years.

The greatest QBs to play the game were, how can I put it, limited.

Brady and Montana simply new where to go with the ball. I'm betting over 90% of the QBs in college can make the same throws Brady and Montana can. Problem is that they just don't prepare well enough to be able to see those throws.

Originally posted by genus49:
I know you've been watching football long enough to know God given ability isn't ALL that matters.

QBs who know where to go with the football and can get the ball there accurately still get it done. That won't change.

I find it ironic that after all the talk after our season ended how these athletic stud QBs with big arms and mobility can cover up for so many holes in a team this year that the SB was the perfect example of such a QB getting his ass handed to him and the winning QB being 43 year old pocket passer.

If that's not a reminder that those guys don't magically make everything better then I don't know what will be.

But you are right in a way. There's a reason I list my QB grades as Wilson/Fields/Jones/Lance but want us to draft them in the order of Wilson/Fields/Lance/Jones...because yes god given ability helps. And if Kyle Shanahan sees what he wants out of the guys who have more god given ability than Jones then I'd love having any of them here because the potential of them in Kyle's offense is exciting as hell.

BUT if I'm just grading players potential isn't something I can predict. Which is why I'll prefer a guy I can see can play the game consistently well at the things which have mattered for years.

Genus, nowhere did I say god given ability is all that matters...there is absolutely no reason for you to write that. I've never stated it.

you don't however wake up one day and become a better athlete, have a better arm, or have the ability to do more than run the offense in structure though.

also every single successful QB has to play and win within the pocket...no one is disagreeing with that. None of these top 5 QBs suck inside the pocket either...The others offer more though...you can learn to play in the pocket and learn the nuances behind it. Jones had 3 yrs to sit back and learn it from the best coaching staff in college. Why can't the others?

as far as Brady he wasn't some magical QB in the playoffs. He almost lost them the game vs GB. He completed less then 60% of his passes and that D crushed an injury stricken KC OL. He did his job and that's great. I wouldn't say his job was overall that hard this go around...it's wasn't Mahomes vs Brady and if the roles were reversed, I'm willing to bet the outcome is different. Also Mahomes and that ability IS the reason they won the SB the yr prior...not many QBs can make that 3rd and 15 play. That's god given ability.

All I want is a player that can do both, I'm not trying to make it about a pure in the pocket QB vs a one read and run QB.

We will see...it's gonna be months of debate and we don't even take a QB

Originally posted by genus49:
I know you've been watching football long enough to know God given ability isn't ALL that matters.

QBs who know where to go with the football and can get the ball there accurately still get it done. That won't change.

I find it ironic that after all the talk after our season ended how these athletic stud QBs with big arms and mobility can cover up for so many holes in a team this year that the SB was the perfect example of such a QB getting his ass handed to him and the winning QB being 43 year old pocket passer.

If that's not a reminder that those guys don't magically make everything better then I don't know what will be.

But you are right in a way. There's a reason I list my QB grades as Wilson/Fields/Jones/Lance but want us to draft them in the order of Wilson/Fields/Lance/Jones...because yes god given ability helps. And if Kyle Shanahan sees what he wants out of the guys who have more god given ability than Jones then I'd love having any of them here because the potential of them in Kyle's offense is exciting as hell.

BUT if I'm just grading players potential isn't something I can predict. Which is why I'll prefer a guy I can see can play the game consistently well at the things which have mattered for years.

Well that explains a lot, the major problem with that philosophy is that doing something well in college, doesn't guarantee it will translate to the NFL.

This is the Mac Jones thread, and yes I think he can carry his skillset into the league, but I doubt that skillset ever takes him into the top 10 of QB's.

Looks like that's good enough for people.

Originally posted by 49erBigMac:

Originally posted by genus49:
I know you've been watching football long enough to know God given ability isn't ALL that matters.

QBs who know where to go with the football and can get the ball there accurately still get it done. That won't change.

I find it ironic that after all the talk after our season ended how these athletic stud QBs with big arms and mobility can cover up for so many holes in a team this year that the SB was the perfect example of such a QB getting his ass handed to him and the winning QB being 43 year old pocket passer.

If that's not a reminder that those guys don't magically make everything better then I don't know what will be.

But you are right in a way. There's a reason I list my QB grades as Wilson/Fields/Jones/Lance but want us to draft them in the order of Wilson/Fields/Lance/Jones...because yes god given ability helps. And if Kyle Shanahan sees what he wants out of the guys who have more god given ability than Jones then I'd love having any of them here because the potential of them in Kyle's offense is exciting as hell.

BUT if I'm just grading players potential isn't something I can predict. Which is why I'll prefer a guy I can see can play the game consistently well at the things which have mattered for years.

Well that explains a lot, the major problem with that philosophy is that doing something well in college, doesn't guarantee it will translate to the NFL.

This is the Mac Jones thread, and yes I think he can carry his skillset into the league, but I doubt that skillset ever takes him into the top 10 of QB's.

Looks like that's good enough for people.

No what some people are doing is making excuses for what Jones does well in college which translates to the NFL because of the supporting cast around him.

If we're making projections I'd rather see a guy who's got a good floor and the drive to work on his game vs a guy who shows flashes but needs to get the basics down to a more consistent level.

It's basically

Jones does something well over and over - "well he's on Bama with great WRs what's the big deal"
Lance does something well here and there - "OMG imagine what he can be with our talent?!"

There has to be a line. Thinking that just because a guy isn't a crazy athlete with a bazooka arm that he's a finished product is silly. Brady, Brees, even Montana weren't super freaks.

Jones' arm isn't trash and he's not a complete statue either. Some of you guys want to downplay his accomplishments because of his good OL but also hold him back because he didn't have to show his ability to evade the rush as much as other guys.

I'll tell you what, me personally, I will take a guy with a lower athletic skillset who busts his ass over the uber athlete who may not put in as much time with film work and the mental side of the game.

Originally posted by genus49:
No what some people are doing is making excuses for what Jones does well in college which translates to the NFL because of the supporting cast around him.

If we're making projections I'd rather see a guy who's got a good floor and the drive to work on his game vs a guy who shows flashes but needs to get the basics down to a more consistent level.

It's basically

Jones does something well over and over - "well he's on Bama with great WRs what's the big deal"
Lance does something well here and there - "OMG imagine what he can be with our talent?!"

There has to be a line. Thinking that just because a guy isn't a crazy athlete with a bazooka arm that he's a finished product is silly. Brady, Brees, even Montana weren't super freaks.

Jones' arm isn't trash and he's not a complete statue either. Some of you guys want to downplay his accomplishments because of his good OL but also hold him back because he didn't have to show his ability to evade the rush as much as other guys.

I'll tell you what, me personally, I will take a guy with a lower athletic skillset who busts his ass over the uber athlete who may not put in as much time with film work and the mental side of the game.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by genus49:
I know you've been watching football long enough to know God given ability isn't ALL that matters.

QBs who know where to go with the football and can get the ball there accurately still get it done. That won't change.

I find it ironic that after all the talk after our season ended how these athletic stud QBs with big arms and mobility can cover up for so many holes in a team this year that the SB was the perfect example of such a QB getting his ass handed to him and the winning QB being 43 year old pocket passer.

If that's not a reminder that those guys don't magically make everything better then I don't know what will be.

But you are right in a way. There's a reason I list my QB grades as Wilson/Fields/Jones/Lance but want us to draft them in the order of Wilson/Fields/Lance/Jones...because yes god given ability helps. And if Kyle Shanahan sees what he wants out of the guys who have more god given ability than Jones then I'd love having any of them here because the potential of them in Kyle's offense is exciting as hell.

BUT if I'm just grading players potential isn't something I can predict. Which is why I'll prefer a guy I can see can play the game consistently well at the things which have mattered for years.

Genus, nowhere did I say god given ability is all that matters...there is absolutely no reason for you to write that. I've never stated it.

you don't however wake up one day and become a better athlete, have a better arm, or have the ability to do more than run the offense in structure though.

also every single successful QB has to play and win within the pocket...no one is disagreeing with that. None of these top 5 QBs suck inside the pocket either...The others offer more though...you can learn to play in the pocket and learn the nuances behind it. Jones had 3 yrs to sit back and learn it from the best coaching staff in college. Why can't the others?

as far as Brady he wasn't some magical QB in the playoffs. He almost lost them the game vs GB. He completed less then 60% of his passes and that D crushed an injury stricken KC OL. He did his job and that's great. I wouldn't say his job was overall that hard this go around...it's wasn't Mahomes vs Brady and if the roles were reversed, I'm willing to bet the outcome is different. Also Mahomes and that ability IS the reason they won the SB the yr prior...not many QBs can make that 3rd and 15 play. That's god given ability.

All I want is a player that can do both, I'm not trying to make it about a pure in the pocket QB vs a one read and run QB.

We will see...it's gonna be months of debate and we don't even take a QB

You're telling me Tom Brady hasn't improved during his career? You're telling me Drew Brees hasn't?

Now they didn't suddenly turn into Patrick Mahomes but their arm got better and they were certainly good enough to make any NFL throw. Just because they couldn't make the highlight reel type stuff on the handful of plays doesn't mean much.

And not many QBs can make that 3rd and 15 play? That wasn't even one of his best plays. Hill was wide open and our guys were getting held like crazy.

Not to mention now you're acting like I wouldn't want Mahomes type QB, of course I would which is why I said i'd prefer we draft Lance over Jones but that's because I trust Shanahan's opinion much more than my own. It's because I'm not an NFL coach who understands how much can be fixed with a kid or have the insider knowledge some do.

I do know that Jones does things very well which will always lead to success in the NFL. I know we have a very good roster so are we ignoring a guy like Jones? Are we drafting him and then swapping rosters with the Jets?

We had a player who could do both in Kap. I'm sure you recall the hype around him(I know I was part of it) Ron Jaworski saying he was the next great QB. It never clicked for him. People can act like it's because he was blackballed by the league but that's BS. There's no question he had the work ethic, it was talked about frequently. The issue was his mental processing never got to the level you needed to make him a Mahomes like QB. Some plays he made were insane but then he'd miss the easy things.

We'll see what happens. All I'm saying is you're going out of your way to downplay what Jones has done while hyping up guys like Lance in relatable situations(see my post above)

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by 49erBigMac:

Originally posted by genus49:
I know you've been watching football long enough to know God given ability isn't ALL that matters.

QBs who know where to go with the football and can get the ball there accurately still get it done. That won't change.

I find it ironic that after all the talk after our season ended how these athletic stud QBs with big arms and mobility can cover up for so many holes in a team this year that the SB was the perfect example of such a QB getting his ass handed to him and the winning QB being 43 year old pocket passer.

If that's not a reminder that those guys don't magically make everything better then I don't know what will be.

But you are right in a way. There's a reason I list my QB grades as Wilson/Fields/Jones/Lance but want us to draft them in the order of Wilson/Fields/Lance/Jones...because yes god given ability helps. And if Kyle Shanahan sees what he wants out of the guys who have more god given ability than Jones then I'd love having any of them here because the potential of them in Kyle's offense is exciting as hell.

BUT if I'm just grading players potential isn't something I can predict. Which is why I'll prefer a guy I can see can play the game consistently well at the things which have mattered for years.

Well that explains a lot, the major problem with that philosophy is that doing something well in college, doesn't guarantee it will translate to the NFL.

This is the Mac Jones thread, and yes I think he can carry his skillset into the league, but I doubt that skillset ever takes him into the top 10 of QB's.

Looks like that's good enough for people.

No what some people are doing is making excuses for what Jones does well in college which translates to the NFL because of the supporting cast around him.

If we're making projections I'd rather see a guy who's got a good floor and the drive to work on his game vs a guy who shows flashes but needs to get the basics down to a more consistent level.

It's basically

Jones does something well over and over - "well he's on Bama with great WRs what's the big deal"
Lance does something well here and there - "OMG imagine what he can be with our talent?!"

There has to be a line. Thinking that just because a guy isn't a crazy athlete with a bazooka arm that he's a finished product is silly. Brady, Brees, even Montana weren't super freaks.

Jones' arm isn't trash and he's not a complete statue either. Some of you guys want to downplay his accomplishments because of his good OL but also hold him back because he didn't have to show his ability to evade the rush as much as other guys.

I'll tell you what, me personally, I will take a guy with a lower athletic skillset who busts his ass over the uber athlete who may not put in as much time with film work and the mental side of the game.

So would I, but there hasn't been a peep of that from any of these QB's, so where are you getting that from?

Jones could work on his arm strength and improve it, and yes I back him to work hard. It's fair to point out that he had it easier in college than most, but the overlooked thing is that he got to sit and learn for nearly 3 years before going in.

What happens when you put that sort of time into one of the other prospects with the physical tools?

Originally posted by 49erBigMac:
Well that explains a lot, the major problem with that philosophy is that doing something well in college, doesn't guarantee it will translate to the NFL.

This is the Mac Jones thread, and yes I think he can carry his skillset into the league, but I doubt that skillset ever takes him into the top 10 of QB's.

Looks like that's good enough for people.

That's where I'm at

Originally posted by NYniner85:
Nah people are overrating Mac Jones.

if ball velocity/athletic ability/extending plays and having those god given traits didn't matter then Mahomes/allen/herbert etc wouldn't have been top 10 picks... those things matter.

im sorry wut with Sam Darnold? He doesn't have some cannon or elite athletic ability. That's simply not true at all....poor example. Name me a QB with Jones' same attributes (how he wins) drafted in the past five yrs that's been successful? There isn't any.

yes let's talk about Watson...go look at some of his OTHER weaknesses.

-doesn't go through progressions
-not accurate overall
-one read then runs
-TO machine
-can't read coverages
-stare down his primary read
-needs better footwork

Hmmm, wild he learned how to read coverages, learned the nuances of playing QB from the neck up AND still had that athletic traits to extend plays when he had too...turned into a top 5 QB. Weird how that works.

look if you think we don't have the coaching staff to teach a high trait QB, who already has a good base and understanding of football then go get Mac...and probably fire your coaching staff....If you don't think we have a roster built to support a top end QB for a yr until Kyle can get him fully adjusted and don't have a starting QB on the roster...go get Jones, not the case here. It's about upgrading from Jimmy G, not maintaining the status quo.

QBs picked in the 1st should be a long-term investments...it shouldn't just be about what they can do right now, but what they can ultimately become.

I didn't actually read this part before lol.

People completely overreacted to Watson after the guy was pretty much the consensus #1 pick heading into his last season. You had the tape and yet people freaked out over stupid chit like his MPH numbers at the combine and INT numbers which includes a bunch of bad bounces.

And yes Watson addressed a lot of the questions around him, much like Mahomes did. Did Kap? Did RG3? Vince Young? Cam Newton? Mariota? etc..

But this comes back to my preference that Kyle would take Lance over Jones. Because the way coaches can get a better feel for whether a guy can do those things when not doing them in college is getting him in the room(or zoom) and testing his knowledge/commitment, talking to coaches, etc. Was the design of the offense holding the kid back? Were his coaches telling him how to operate the offense? We know most college offenses rely more on athletic ability so we'll see more and more guys who aren't big on going through progressions. Perfect world you want them going to their first read because it's open as drawn up.

how big are his hands

Originally posted by 49erBigMac:
So would I, but there hasn't been a peep of that from any of these QB's, so where are you getting that from?

Jones could work on his arm strength and improve it, and yes I back him to work hard. It's fair to point out that he had it easier in college than most, but the overlooked thing is that he got to sit and learn for nearly 3 years before going in.

What happens when you put that sort of time into one of the other prospects with the physical tools?

Sitting and learning isn't the same as playing. We've seen this first hand with Garoppolo and other QBs.

And I've said many times I prefer we draft one of the athletic guys because that would mean we have the intel that checks out.

You saying Jones was helped by sitting for 3 years. I say Jones was at one of the top schools in the country and battled his way to finally getting the job over a highly coveted and athletic recruit and played better than arguably any Bama QB before, including Tua who kept him on the bench.

We forgetting that college coaches don't always make their decisions on who they think is their best guy? Lots of politics, recruiting commitments and etc.

Originally posted by genus49:
You're telling me Tom Brady hasn't improved during his career? You're telling me Drew Brees hasn't?

Now they didn't suddenly turn into Patrick Mahomes but their arm got better and they were certainly good enough to make any NFL throw. Just because they couldn't make the highlight reel type stuff on the handful of plays doesn't mean much.

And not many QBs can make that 3rd and 15 play? That wasn't even one of his best plays. Hill was wide open and our guys were getting held like crazy.

Not to mention now you're acting like I wouldn't want Mahomes type QB, of course I would which is why I said i'd prefer we draft Lance over Jones but that's because I trust Shanahan's opinion much more than my own. It's because I'm not an NFL coach who understands how much can be fixed with a kid or have the insider knowledge some do.

I do know that Jones does things very well which will always lead to success in the NFL. I know we have a very good roster so are we ignoring a guy like Jones? Are we drafting him and then swapping rosters with the Jets?

We had a player who could do both in Kap. I'm sure you recall the hype around him(I know I was part of it) Ron Jaworski saying he was the next great QB. It never clicked for him. People can act like it's because he was blackballed by the league but that's BS. There's no question he had the work ethic, it was talked about frequently. The issue was his mental processing never got to the level you needed to make him a Mahomes like QB. Some plays he made were insane but then he'd miss the easy things.

We'll see what happens. All I'm saying is you're going out of your way to downplay what Jones has done while hyping up guys like Lance in relatable situations(see my post above)

Got better at what? Neither guy got drastically more athletic or went in another tier as far as arm talent. They didn't become top end talents at extending plays any more than in college.

that 3rd QB & 15 play is special. He scrambled long enough to make that play happen. That pass traveled almost 60 yards in the air, which was his longest air completion that yr...no not everyone can make a play like that happen. That's part of what makes him special. That's god given ability.

and nowhere did I say you don't want a talent like that...my earlier post was a counter point. It has nothing to do with you or what you prefer...it was a broad comment.

there are plenty of QBs that do what Jones does in the NFL...more often then not it's the other stuff on top of it that makes a QB special and that's what I'm looking for in a FQB. That's all... it's not me vs the Jones fan club or whatever (not saying you are). I just want more.