Mac Jones-QB-Jaguars

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
To an extent, if you have the right guy. Most QBs -- the vast majority -- never improve more than incrementally at the mental side of the position. Certainly not before their thirties usually.

That said, there are some exceptions (Steve Young, John Elway), and more importantly, there are things you can do schematically that make that less of an important factor.

That's not true at all...a 21 yr old QB prospect is NOT close to mentally finished as a player.

as long as you're willing to let him sit and learn, have the proper coaching staff, and roster in place this isn't an issue.

There are literally HUNDREDS of guys who never got much better at these things. Thousands probably. We have three on our team the last few years. We also had several others: Kaepernick, Gabbert, Barkley, Hoyer, Shaun, Troy Smith, David Carr, and on and on. The only one of our QBs the last 15 years that actually got appreciably better at the mental side of the game is Smith -- and he was TERRIBLE at it before then, so it's not like he became elite.

I will say this though: even fewer guys get appreciably more athletic or an appreciably stronger arm. Mechanics improvements have made a few guys better, but there's rarely if ever a dramatic jump.

Originally posted by Rathof44:

Originally posted by Bloodless:
Brady is the exception in the sense that he was a 6th rounder who became the best QB in NFL history. He is not the exception when it comes to pocket passers who are said by everyone to not have high ceilings having success in the NFL. 17 of the last 20 QBs who won the superbowl were pure pocket passers. All of the 17 by the way were less mobile then Mac Jones. Mahomes, Rodgers and Russel Willson are the only mobile qbs to win a Superbowl the last 20 years and they each have only won one. Mobile Qbs are here to stay in the NFL and I will admit there has not been really good pocket Qbs drafted recently. But lets not pretend pocket QBs are no longer getting it done in the NFL.

How many of those good pocket guys are under 30?

Fair point. It would depend on what you considered a pocket passer vs mobile. I will admit over the last 5 years all the guys who have had success coming out of the draft have been mobile. But over that 5 years, there have only been maybe 3 pocket passers that were considered by some to be any kind of talent. Those were Goff, Rosen, and Winston. All seem to be busts but I am not sure even they compare to Jones coming out. They struggled in college with a lot of the things Mac is good at. Both Goff and Rosen did not really have success in college. Winston was completely different as a player.

Edit: I Meant to put Winston not Watson.

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by Rathof44:

Originally posted by GangstaGangsta:
The age old question "can people change?" will finally be answered come draft day lol

Gotta learn from his mistakes. Who are arguably top 3 QBs in league? Mahomes, Allen, and Watson? All mobile QBs able to create outside the pocket. You'd figure after losing to Mahomes in SB and watching Allen completely annihilate the 49ers with ease he would be second guessing his QB theory. If Mac is the super computer everyone says he is then we should expect Peyton type ceiling. As much as they gave up for him, that's a reasonable expectation IMO. I'd be OK with Rivers/Ryan type ceiling, I'm think somwhere between Couch and Cousins.

I beg to differ sir. All three of these guys are great because their ARMS are ridiculous. The movement helps them to put pressure on the defense, but without those ridiculous arms, they'd be mediocre. That's why I'm leaning back towards Fields over Lance. It's not that Lance doesn't have a good arm, but when I watch him what I see is slow. Deliberate. When I watch Fields what I see is lightning off platform rockets.

Funny because slow and deliberate is how many draftnicks see Fields. Lace was very aggressive and he didn't turn the ball over. He simply doesn't take the kind of sacks that Fields does sitting back there not finding the open man as his pass protection doesn't hold up for 3 sec or more.

Originally posted by Rathof44:

Originally posted by jcs:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Comparisons so far:

Wilson = Mahomes
Jones = Manning
Lance = Elway
Fields = ???

A lot of people are saying McNair.

McNair had bigger numbers in college.

He should at Alcorn State

He had all time passing marks. Go look at his numbers they were ridiculous and he managed to do it with alcorn state WR's not future 1st rounders like Fields has. McNair also carried his team instead of the knock of being on a roster full of 1st round picks to make him look good.

Originally posted by Bloodless:

Originally posted by Rathof44:

Originally posted by Bloodless:
Brady is the exception in the sense that he was a 6th rounder who became the best QB in NFL history. He is not the exception when it comes to pocket passers who are said by everyone to not have high ceilings having success in the NFL. 17 of the last 20 QBs who won the superbowl were pure pocket passers. All of the 17 by the way were less mobile then Mac Jones. Mahomes, Rodgers and Russel Willson are the only mobile qbs to win a Superbowl the last 20 years and they each have only won one. Mobile Qbs are here to stay in the NFL and I will admit there has not been really good pocket Qbs drafted recently. But lets not pretend pocket QBs are no longer getting it done in the NFL.

How many of those good pocket guys are under 30?

Fair point. It would depend on what you considered a pocket passer vs mobile. I will admit over the last 5 years all the guys who have had success coming out of the draft have been mobile. But over that 5 years, there have only been maybe 3 pocket passers that were considered by some to be any kind of talent. Those were Goff, Rosen, and Watson. All seem to be busts but I am not sure even they compare to Jones coming out. They struggled in college with a lot of the things Mac is good at. Both Goff and Rosen did not really have success in college. Winston was completely different as a player.

I would say use Brady or Ryan, etc and whatever their rushing yards are that would be the bar. Say 100-120 yards rushing or less per season. Rodgers had 150 thus year, that was his career low in any season he played all 16 games.

Watson? Pocket passer? Bust? Maybe in off field decision making. Guy led the league in passing 2020, never had less than 400 yds rushing in a full season.

Originally posted by Bloodless:
Fair point. It would depend on what you considered a pocket passer vs mobile. I will admit over the last 5 years all the guys who have had success coming out of the draft have been mobile. But over that 5 years, there have only been maybe 3 pocket passers that were considered by some to be any kind of talent. Those were Goff, Rosen, and Watson. All seem to be busts but I am not sure even they compare to Jones coming out. They struggled in college with a lot of the things Mac is good at. Both Goff and Rosen did not really have success in college. Winston was completely different as a player.

Uh Goff's last year at California he had 43 TDs & won his bowl game 55-36 throwing 6 TDs. He had success in college.

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
There are literally HUNDREDS of guys who never got much better at these things. Thousands probably. We have three on our team the last few years. We also had several others: Kaepernick, Gabbert, Barkley, Hoyer, Shaun, Troy Smith, David Carr, and on and on. The only one of our QBs the last 15 years that actually got appreciably better at the mental side of the game is Smith -- and he was TERRIBLE at it before then, so it's not like he became elite.

And there's SO MUCH context to every single case...you're throwing it all into one bag, which is silly.

IF you don't have the right coaching staff or roster you're f**ked. IF you're lazy and can't put the time in your f**ked. IF you get thrown out there too quickly and it's overwhelming/you're not prepared...you're f**ked.

I can point out HUNDREDS of guys coming out of college that were regarded as smart and could read coverages that failed all the same.

It is a learned trait, you're not born with the god given ability to read coverages lol. YOU LEARN THAT. Thinking a guy is a finished product regarding X's and O's At 20-22 is absurd.

Originally posted by jcs:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by Rathof44:

Originally posted by GangstaGangsta:
The age old question "can people change?" will finally be answered come draft day lol

Gotta learn from his mistakes. Who are arguably top 3 QBs in league? Mahomes, Allen, and Watson? All mobile QBs able to create outside the pocket. You'd figure after losing to Mahomes in SB and watching Allen completely annihilate the 49ers with ease he would be second guessing his QB theory. If Mac is the super computer everyone says he is then we should expect Peyton type ceiling. As much as they gave up for him, that's a reasonable expectation IMO. I'd be OK with Rivers/Ryan type ceiling, I'm think somwhere between Couch and Cousins.

I beg to differ sir. All three of these guys are great because their ARMS are ridiculous. The movement helps them to put pressure on the defense, but without those ridiculous arms, they'd be mediocre. That's why I'm leaning back towards Fields over Lance. It's not that Lance doesn't have a good arm, but when I watch him what I see is slow. Deliberate. When I watch Fields what I see is lightning off platform rockets.

Funny because slow and deliberate is how many draftnicks see Fields. Lace was very aggressive and he didn't turn the ball over. He simply doesn't take the kind of sacks that Fields does sitting back there not finding the open man as his pass protection doesn't hold up for 3 sec or more.

LOL, Fields had the worst o-line of the 5 top QB prospects. The only reason Fields's TTT is higher than the others is because the OSU offense doesn't incorporate nearly as much behind the LOS passing as the others.

Phoenix, who do you want at #3? Mac, Fields, or Lance?

Originally posted by jcs:
Funny because slow and deliberate is how many draftnicks see Fields. Lace was very aggressive and he didn't turn the ball over. He simply doesn't take the kind of sacks that Fields does sitting back there not finding the open man as his pass protection doesn't hold up for 3 sec or more.

You have no idea what TTT means in regards to a QB, stop using it incorrectly...you also clearly have no understanding of the offense Fields ran, you've made that clear in here.

Originally posted by braap49er:
Phoenix, who do you want at #3? Mac, Fields, or Lance?

Mond

Originally posted by Rathof44:

Originally posted by Bloodless:

Originally posted by Rathof44:

Originally posted by Bloodless:
Brady is the exception in the sense that he was a 6th rounder who became the best QB in NFL history. He is not the exception when it comes to pocket passers who are said by everyone to not have high ceilings having success in the NFL. 17 of the last 20 QBs who won the superbowl were pure pocket passers. All of the 17 by the way were less mobile then Mac Jones. Mahomes, Rodgers and Russel Willson are the only mobile qbs to win a Superbowl the last 20 years and they each have only won one. Mobile Qbs are here to stay in the NFL and I will admit there has not been really good pocket Qbs drafted recently. But lets not pretend pocket QBs are no longer getting it done in the NFL.

How many of those good pocket guys are under 30?

Fair point. It would depend on what you considered a pocket passer vs mobile. I will admit over the last 5 years all the guys who have had success coming out of the draft have been mobile. But over that 5 years, there have only been maybe 3 pocket passers that were considered by some to be any kind of talent. Those were Goff, Rosen, and Watson. All seem to be busts but I am not sure even they compare to Jones coming out. They struggled in college with a lot of the things Mac is good at. Both Goff and Rosen did not really have success in college. Winston was completely different as a player.

I would say use Brady or Ryan, etc and whatever their rushing yards are that would be the bar. Say 100-120 yards rushing or less per season. Rodgers had 150 thus year, that was his career low in any season he played all 16 games.

Watson? Pocket passer? Bust? Maybe in off field decline making. Guy led the league in passing 2020, never had less than 400 yds rushing in a full season.

Sorry I meant to type Winston.

Originally posted by braap49er:
Phoenix, who do you want at #3? Mac, Fields, or Lance?

Mac so he can feed on the rage and start handing out timeouts like Chris Webber

Originally posted by Hysterikal:

Originally posted by braap49er:
Phoenix, who do you want at #3? Mac, Fields, or Lance?

Mac so he can feed on the rage and start handing out timeouts like Chris Webber

Will be Alex Smith 2.0 in the zone as far as banning and trolls

Originally posted by 49ersRing:
LOL, Fields had the worst o-line of the 5 top QB prospects. The only reason Fields's TTT is higher than the others is because the OSU offense doesn't incorporate nearly as much behind the LOS passing as the others.

Some people have no clue what TTT mean within the context of scheme and QB play...they should just stop using it. Same with YPA and to some point completion %

depth of target (air yards) tied in with comp % is what should be used. If you're throwing the ball downfield (air yards not YPA) at a high rate and have a high comp % that shows a much more legit accurate QB.