Mac Jones-QB-Jaguars

Originally posted by Cisco0623:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by rathman4481:
You guys get so butthurt over the idea that Mac Jones might be the guy at 3 lol

More than butthurt lol dumbfounded how thiscould actually be true...can't grasp how you spend 3 1sts on this f**ker.

Makes no sense, and I won't believe it until it actually happens.

If they draft Jones I honestly have no idea what my reaction will be, but it won't be positive. I will probably just laugh and focus on baseball for the next 5 years.

What if Jones turns out to be really good? It's a possibility. As someone who doesn't have a solid preference (leaning Lance again after leaning Fields yesterday -- but I'm happy with all three), I don't really get that. So what if the guy you doesn't like turns out to be really good? Will you come back?

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by Cisco0623:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by rathman4481:
You guys get so butthurt over the idea that Mac Jones might be the guy at 3 lol

More than butthurt lol dumbfounded how thiscould actually be true...can't grasp how you spend 3 1sts on this f**ker.

Makes no sense, and I won't believe it until it actually happens.

If they draft Jones I honestly have no idea what my reaction will be, but it won't be positive. I will probably just laugh and focus on baseball for the next 5 years.

What if Jones turns out to be really good? It's a possibility. As someone who doesn't have a solid preference (leaning Lance again after leaning Fields yesterday -- but I'm happy with all three), I don't really get that. So what if the guy you doesn't like turns out to be really good? Will you come back?

Of course I'll always be a fan, but I don't expect much from Jones. Would love to be wrong.

Originally posted by DaBeegDeek:

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by gold49digger:
I'm starting to feel for the kid. If we do draft him he's gonna get booed hard and I bet some niner fans are hoping he fails so they can be proven right. It's getting to the point now where I hope we get him and he balls the f**k out to prove us all wrong.

Oh no doubt. Some people are so dug into their position that they'd be openly hoping for this guy to fail if the 49ers draft him. It's ugly now when people only think he is a possibility. This site might go down for a week if he's the pick.

I dont believe that. There is a lot of time between the draft and our first game. By then, the pain of drafting Jones will wear off. He definitely wont be booed.

However, he will have to be great off the bat if he is the pick. Whenever he struggles people will jump on him, whereas if it is anyone else we would say "he's only a rookie, he's still learning."

But that comes with the pick. I mean, supposedly this guy has the football mind of a Manning or Brady, therefore he shouldn't struggle right away and he should have no problem picking up the offense which would be catered to him.

Manning struggled right away, setting the NFL record for interceptions.

Rookies need an entire year in the NFL before they're ready to go.

Originally posted by 49oz2superbowl:

So spot on!

Originally posted by Rathof44:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:
It could be a monster success too. You look at all of the most successful QB's over the past 30 years and skill sets are all OVER the place from top physical traits to embarrassing physical traits to quick processors to slower processors to average skills across the board (master of none) to top in-your-face to quiet leadership skills, etc.

If there was one formula, we wouldn't be having this discussion. And to think YOU know now as a fan when professionals have come nowhere close to being good at these evaluations, is a bit much.

The NFL isn't the same as it was 30 years ago... Rules are different, play calling is different, overall talent and WHO is learning to play QB at a young age is much different then 30 years ago.

The fact that there hasn't been a successful QB with his skill set drafted in the past 5 yrs is proof of that. There are dudes that can play like him that come out every yr, they just don't happen to play on Bama and put up stupid numbers like he did. Like I said if Jones played for Iowa he wouldn't be a top 10 pick, not even close.

Sure it is. You still had cannon arms like Elway with quick-release QB's like Marino and deep ball masters like Moon, insane athletes like Michael Vick, etc.

Today, they're just different names but varying skill sets remain, all over the place.

Name one great pure pocket passer in the NFL under the age of 30?

Mahomes. He only rushes 100-300 yards a year. He's as pure as it gets.

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
There are literally HUNDREDS of guys who never got much better at these things. Thousands probably. We have three on our team the last few years. We also had several others: Kaepernick, Gabbert, Barkley, Hoyer, Shaun, Troy Smith, David Carr, and on and on. The only one of our QBs the last 15 years that actually got appreciably better at the mental side of the game is Smith -- and he was TERRIBLE at it before then, so it's not like he became elite.

And there's SO MUCH context to every single case...you're throwing it all into one bag, which is silly.

IF you don't have the right coaching staff or roster you're f**ked. IF you're lazy and can't put the time in your f**ked. IF you get thrown out there too quickly and it's overwhelming/you're not prepared...you're f**ked.

I can point out HUNDREDS of guys coming out of college that were regarded as smart and could read coverages that failed all the same.

It is a learned trait, you're not born with the god given ability to read coverages lol. YOU LEARN THAT. Thinking a guy is a finished product regarding X's and O's At 20-22 is absurd.

That's because it's not about being smart or reading coverages. It's about visual instinct.

Agree, It's more a feeling/instinct type of *thinking* -- than a logical sherlock homes deduction kind of thinking. To a certain extent you can weaken it by throwing a rookie into the fire and destroying his confidence, or you can build up that so called *instinct* with some sort of film study and reps, but just like physical strength, each person has their baseline - and you can modify that to a certain extent, but it's not something that you can totally learn, there are limitations even to playbook learning. Just like running the 4.4 - to a certain extent using techniques - you can improve your forty time (losing weight, eating right, certain kinds of weight training) but it will hover around whatever baseline you were born with. I think that's how *instinct* kind of works.

Originally posted by NCommand:
Sure it is. You still had cannon arms like Elway with quick-release QB's like Marino and deep ball masters like Moon, insane athletes like Michael Vick, etc.

Today, they're just different names but varying skill sets remain, all over the place.

and Elway Marino and moon all move around plenty....none of them only threw from outside of the pocket 11% of the time.

pure pocket passers under the age of 30 that are killing it in today's league? Doesn't exist.

Originally posted by NCommand:
So spot on!

This. My wife's been asking me why I've been obsessively looking at my phone. I told her I'm looking at porn.

BTW, she likes Justin Fields out of the all the QBs based on her eye test.

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
It's not so much that Fields is terrible at the mental aspects of the position (although he has been objectively bad at recognizing blitzes — something I was skeptical of a few weeks ago until I watched more of him). But that's not it. It's not Fields being horrid at the mental aspects of the position. It's that McKorkle is unusually good at the mental aspects of the position.

And it's something that can absolutely be coached. These prospects are like 20-22 yrs old. You're not drafting someone based on what they can do overall right now BUT what they can do yrs from now...it's a reason why Jimmy will be the starter and you let someone with a massive ceiling like Lance/fields sit for a yr.

To an extent, if you have the right guy. Most QBs -- the vast majority -- never improve more than incrementally at the mental side of the position. Certainly not before their thirties usually.

That said, there are some exceptions (Steve Young, John Elway), and more importantly, there are things you can do schematically that make that less of an important factor.

The QB when reading a defense is facing a puzzle, I think Joe Montana said it's like driving through a red light with a lot of cross street high speed traffic and trying not to hit any cars. Defenses are constantly trying to cross up the speed reading tells that a QB relies on to figure out who to go to. I.e. defenses figure out a QB and shut him down example. The QB's that learn how to solve the puzzle faster than defenses can create that puzzle will win. There are just some brains out there that can't figure the puzzle out. A nephew of a friend of mine can solve rubic's cubes (all the different variations) no problem, but he's the only one that he knows of that can do that. It takes time to learn the pattern solution, it takes initiative and persistence to get the solutions into muscle memory, and it takes somebody interested in doing it, versus somebody with a passing fancy. Not everybody can solve the rubic's cube due to lack of interest, lack of persistence, or lack of talent, just like being an NFL QB.

I think the above is what makes it hard to be an NFL QB.

I've been unclear with my language.

I am NOT talking about reading defenses. Colin Kaepernick was decent at reading defenses (only the football ignorant think he couldn't read a defense).

I'm talking about something more subtle. I was more clear in my last post. It's a visual instinct I'm referring to. Kind of like how Russell Wilson has that spatial awareness where he magically knows someone's about to grab him. A combination of all five senses working together to tell him what's coming.

Well, some QBs have something similar when it comes to gauging motion, movement, and location with their WRs, DBs, and pass rushers. It is NOT about intelligence. Kaepernick is a smart guy and he didn't have this. Same with Alex Smith. Alex Smith became a master at reading defenses and he didn't have this well enough to be what he could have been.

The closest thing I could think of to describe it is the state of mind you are in when you are juggling. You're not looking at any one ball, at least not for more than a brief moment. You're certainly not looking at them as they fall into your hand. You can't, or you'll lose the rest of them. You have a feel for the trajectories of the balls.

It's something similar to that that some guys have and some guys struggle with throughout their career. I guess you could just call it vision, but it affects everything. It affects how quickly you get the ball out ("processing," even though really it's not processing in the sense of figuring out what the defense is doing, it's just something that can slow down your reaction to that); it affects where you throw the ball as well, but most of all it affects how quickly you get the ball to where you know it's supposed to go. How quickly you find the hole.

Yup, Agree, and as I said in my post previously, it's more of a *feeling* than a *deductive kind of thinking* kind of perception. Going back to what Joe said, he just feels where he had to go with the ball. Again the traffic analogy - he described it as driving full speed into a busy intersection and trying not to hit any cars.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Rathof44:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:
It could be a monster success too. You look at all of the most successful QB's over the past 30 years and skill sets are all OVER the place from top physical traits to embarrassing physical traits to quick processors to slower processors to average skills across the board (master of none) to top in-your-face to quiet leadership skills, etc.

If there was one formula, we wouldn't be having this discussion. And to think YOU know now as a fan when professionals have come nowhere close to being good at these evaluations, is a bit much.

The NFL isn't the same as it was 30 years ago... Rules are different, play calling is different, overall talent and WHO is learning to play QB at a young age is much different then 30 years ago.

The fact that there hasn't been a successful QB with his skill set drafted in the past 5 yrs is proof of that. There are dudes that can play like him that come out every yr, they just don't happen to play on Bama and put up stupid numbers like he did. Like I said if Jones played for Iowa he wouldn't be a top 10 pick, not even close.

Sure it is. You still had cannon arms like Elway with quick-release QB's like Marino and deep ball masters like Moon, insane athletes like Michael Vick, etc.

Today, they're just different names but varying skill sets remain, all over the place.

Name one great pure pocket passer in the NFL under the age of 30?

Mahomes. He only rushes 100-300 yards a year. He's as pure as it gets.

Nope. 272, 218, 308 yds rushing. 200-300 yds is hardly an immobile pocket guy.Think Brady-esque, less than 120 ydsseason. 8yds per game roughly.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
There are literally HUNDREDS of guys who never got much better at these things. Thousands probably. We have three on our team the last few years. We also had several others: Kaepernick, Gabbert, Barkley, Hoyer, Shaun, Troy Smith, David Carr, and on and on. The only one of our QBs the last 15 years that actually got appreciably better at the mental side of the game is Smith -- and he was TERRIBLE at it before then, so it's not like he became elite.

And there's SO MUCH context to every single case...you're throwing it all into one bag, which is silly.

IF you don't have the right coaching staff or roster you're f**ked. IF you're lazy and can't put the time in your f**ked. IF you get thrown out there too quickly and it's overwhelming/you're not prepared...you're f**ked.

I can point out HUNDREDS of guys coming out of college that were regarded as smart and could read coverages that failed all the same.

It is a learned trait, you're not born with the god given ability to read coverages lol. YOU LEARN THAT. Thinking a guy is a finished product regarding X's and O's At 20-22 is absurd.

That's because it's not about being smart or reading coverages. It's about visual instinct.

Agree, It's more a feeling/instinct type of *thinking* -- than a logical sherlock homes deduction kind of thinking. To a certain extent you can weaken it by throwing a rookie into the fire and destroying his confidence, or you can build up that so called *instinct* with some sort of film study and reps, but just like physical strength, each person has their baseline - and you can modify that to a certain extent, but it's not something that you can totally learn, there are limitations even to playbook learning. Just like running the 4.4 - to a certain extent using techniques - you can improve your forty time (losing weight, eating right, certain kinds of weight training) but it will hover around whatever baseline you were born with. I think that's how *instinct* kind of works.

QBs can be taught to read coverages in different ways depending on the coach they work with (high school to college to pros). If it's consistent in the manner that he is taught going from college to pros, the transition is easier and there is a better chance for the QB to improve his processing. If he goes to the NFL and is asked to re-wire his brain, that stunts the development in this area of his game. He may have to start from level 1 and work his way back up.

At one point Air Raid QBs were not having success because once they got to the NFL their reads were different and that contributed to their lack of success. Once NFL coaches started molding the NFL playbook to incorporate more of what their QB was doing in college, we saw more young QBs have early success. I do think there is an inborn aspect to this (reading coverages quickly), but it can be aided by what the QB is asked to do in the NFL and how similar or different it is from what he did in college.

Originally posted by Rathof44:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Rathof44:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:
It could be a monster success too. You look at all of the most successful QB's over the past 30 years and skill sets are all OVER the place from top physical traits to embarrassing physical traits to quick processors to slower processors to average skills across the board (master of none) to top in-your-face to quiet leadership skills, etc.

If there was one formula, we wouldn't be having this discussion. And to think YOU know now as a fan when professionals have come nowhere close to being good at these evaluations, is a bit much.

The NFL isn't the same as it was 30 years ago... Rules are different, play calling is different, overall talent and WHO is learning to play QB at a young age is much different then 30 years ago.

The fact that there hasn't been a successful QB with his skill set drafted in the past 5 yrs is proof of that. There are dudes that can play like him that come out every yr, they just don't happen to play on Bama and put up stupid numbers like he did. Like I said if Jones played for Iowa he wouldn't be a top 10 pick, not even close.

Sure it is. You still had cannon arms like Elway with quick-release QB's like Marino and deep ball masters like Moon, insane athletes like Michael Vick, etc.

Today, they're just different names but varying skill sets remain, all over the place.

Name one great pure pocket passer in the NFL under the age of 30?

Mahomes. He only rushes 100-300 yards a year. He's as pure as it gets.

Nope. 272, 218, 308 yds rushing. Think Brady-esque, less than 120/season. 8yds per game roughly.

Just looked at Mac Jones' rush stats, 14 yards in the entire 2020 season. Fields is around 380 for the entire 2020 season, neither one of them were really big on the rush department - specifically looking at Fields. I thought Fields would be much more over that rush number. More towards a thousand a season, but nope. Wow.

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
What if Jones turns out to be really good? It's a possibility. As someone who doesn't have a solid preference (leaning Lance again after leaning Fields yesterday -- but I'm happy with all three), I don't really get that. So what if the guy you doesn't like turns out to be really good? Will you come back?

We has fans should expect more than Mac Jones. Period.

Ive watched the 49ers be s**tty or avg for a long time outside of a couple good seasons. I will always watch them, doesn't mean I have to accept an avg system QB. No one should be.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by Rathof44:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Rathof44:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:
It could be a monster success too. You look at all of the most successful QB's over the past 30 years and skill sets are all OVER the place from top physical traits to embarrassing physical traits to quick processors to slower processors to average skills across the board (master of none) to top in-your-face to quiet leadership skills, etc.

If there was one formula, we wouldn't be having this discussion. And to think YOU know now as a fan when professionals have come nowhere close to being good at these evaluations, is a bit much.

The NFL isn't the same as it was 30 years ago... Rules are different, play calling is different, overall talent and WHO is learning to play QB at a young age is much different then 30 years ago.

The fact that there hasn't been a successful QB with his skill set drafted in the past 5 yrs is proof of that. There are dudes that can play like him that come out every yr, they just don't happen to play on Bama and put up stupid numbers like he did. Like I said if Jones played for Iowa he wouldn't be a top 10 pick, not even close.

Sure it is. You still had cannon arms like Elway with quick-release QB's like Marino and deep ball masters like Moon, insane athletes like Michael Vick, etc.

Today, they're just different names but varying skill sets remain, all over the place.

Name one great pure pocket passer in the NFL under the age of 30?

Mahomes. He only rushes 100-300 yards a year. He's as pure as it gets.

Nope. 272, 218, 308 yds rushing. Think Brady-esque, less than 120/season. 8yds per game roughly.

Just looked at Mac Jones' rush stats, 14 yards in the entire 2020 season. Fields is around 380 for the entire 2020 season, neither one of them were really big on the rush department - specifically looking at Fields. I thought Fields would be much more over that rush number. More towards a thousand a season, but nope. Wow.

Fields is in 6 games, 8 with playoffs.. BTW.

Originally posted by Giedi:
Just looked at Mac Jones' rush stats, 14 yards in the entire 2020 season. Fields is around 380 for the entire 2020 season, neither one of them were really big on the rush department - specifically looking at Fields. I thought Fields would be much more over that rush number. More towards a thousand a season, but nope. Wow.

He's a pocket passing QB first, but can extend plays...people just think he's black and fast so he must be one read and scramble.

Lawrence ran for almost 600 yards in 2019, he along with Jones run more college based spread offenses then the other two yet get labeled as some Uber heady QB lol