Mac Jones-QB-Jaguars

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
There are literally HUNDREDS of guys who never got much better at these things. Thousands probably. We have three on our team the last few years. We also had several others: Kaepernick, Gabbert, Barkley, Hoyer, Shaun, Troy Smith, David Carr, and on and on. The only one of our QBs the last 15 years that actually got appreciably better at the mental side of the game is Smith -- and he was TERRIBLE at it before then, so it's not like he became elite.

And there's SO MUCH context to every single case...you're throwing it all into one bag, which is silly.

IF you don't have the right coaching staff or roster you're f**ked. IF you're lazy and can't put the time in your f**ked. IF you get thrown out there too quickly and it's overwhelming/you're not prepared...you're f**ked.

I can point out HUNDREDS of guys coming out of college that were regarded as smart and could read coverages that failed all the same.

It is a learned trait, you're not born with the god given ability to read coverages lol. YOU LEARN THAT. Thinking a guy is a finished product regarding X's and O's At 20-22 is absurd.

That's because it's not about being smart or reading coverages. It's about visual instinct.

Agree, It's more a feeling/instinct type of *thinking* -- than a logical sherlock homes deduction kind of thinking. To a certain extent you can weaken it by throwing a rookie into the fire and destroying his confidence, or you can build up that so called *instinct* with some sort of film study and reps, but just like physical strength, each person has their baseline - and you can modify that to a certain extent, but it's not something that you can totally learn, there are limitations even to playbook learning. Just like running the 4.4 - to a certain extent using techniques - you can improve your forty time (losing weight, eating right, certain kinds of weight training) but it will hover around whatever baseline you were born with. I think that's how *instinct* kind of works.

QBs can be taught to read coverages in different ways depending on the coach they work with (high school to college to pros). If it's consistent in the manner that he is taught going from college to pros, the transition is easier and there is a better chance for the QB to improve his processing. If he goes to the NFL and is asked to re-wire his brain, that stunts the development in this area of his game. He may have to start from level 1 and work his way back up.

At one point Air Raid QBs were not having success because once they got to the NFL their reads were different and that contributed to their lack of success. Once NFL coaches started molding the NFL playbook to incorporate more of what their QB was doing in college, we saw more young QBs have early success. I do think there is an inborn aspect to this (reading coverages quickly), but it can be aided by what the QB is asked to do in the NFL and how similar or different it is from what he did in college.

Thank you!

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Rathof44:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:
It could be a monster success too. You look at all of the most successful QB's over the past 30 years and skill sets are all OVER the place from top physical traits to embarrassing physical traits to quick processors to slower processors to average skills across the board (master of none) to top in-your-face to quiet leadership skills, etc.

If there was one formula, we wouldn't be having this discussion. And to think YOU know now as a fan when professionals have come nowhere close to being good at these evaluations, is a bit much.

The NFL isn't the same as it was 30 years ago... Rules are different, play calling is different, overall talent and WHO is learning to play QB at a young age is much different then 30 years ago.

The fact that there hasn't been a successful QB with his skill set drafted in the past 5 yrs is proof of that. There are dudes that can play like him that come out every yr, they just don't happen to play on Bama and put up stupid numbers like he did. Like I said if Jones played for Iowa he wouldn't be a top 10 pick, not even close.

Sure it is. You still had cannon arms like Elway with quick-release QB's like Marino and deep ball masters like Moon, insane athletes like Michael Vick, etc.

Today, they're just different names but varying skill sets remain, all over the place.

Name one great pure pocket passer in the NFL under the age of 30?

Mahomes. He only rushes 100-300 yards a year. He's as pure as it gets.

I'd not call Mahomes a pure pocket passer, and I think you'd be far-fetched to find many people who would. Dude scrambles a LOT, he's just really adept at remaining behind the line of scrimmage to deliver the ball. Having said that, when he does run for gains Mahomes can hurt you so the threat is enough to give him advantages pure pockets QB's don't have.

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by DaBeegDeek:

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by gold49digger:
I'm starting to feel for the kid. If we do draft him he's gonna get booed hard and I bet some niner fans are hoping he fails so they can be proven right. It's getting to the point now where I hope we get him and he balls the f**k out to prove us all wrong.

Oh no doubt. Some people are so dug into their position that they'd be openly hoping for this guy to fail if the 49ers draft him. It's ugly now when people only think he is a possibility. This site might go down for a week if he's the pick.

I dont believe that. There is a lot of time between the draft and our first game. By then, the pain of drafting Jones will wear off. He definitely wont be booed.

However, he will have to be great off the bat if he is the pick. Whenever he struggles people will jump on him, whereas if it is anyone else we would say "he's only a rookie, he's still learning."

But that comes with the pick. I mean, supposedly this guy has the football mind of a Manning or Brady, therefore he shouldn't struggle right away and he should have no problem picking up the offense which would be catered to him.

Manning struggled right away, setting the NFL record for interceptions.

Rookies need an entire year in the NFL before they're ready to go.

Fans are irrational, a lot of us are enamored with the fields, lances, and Wilson's of the world. They will boo this guy just cause they planted their flag with the other guys. I hope this guy had a lot of mental toughness cause it can get ugly and I think he will have the highest of expectations from fans out of all the guys cause he is the most "pro ready" guy and I don't think he will have as much of a luxury of saying "oh he's just a rookie" cause of that when it comes from a fan perspective. It isn't fair but I see that scenario. I personally want the other guys over him but I can't bring myself to hate the guy if he is indeed the pick.

But to make others feel a little better that he might not be the pick, for weeks no one knew we were trying to trade up. Barely any reports of that happening and all of the sudden there are sources that mac is the guy? I call b******t on all of that. No one has a legitimate inside source of what's going on in the draft meetings. It's all smoke season and people are just assuming cause kyle supposedly has a type, where in the presser he clearly states that it isn't a kirk cousins type. Yeah he likes him and for good reason cause he is a good QB, but it doesn't mean it's his type of QB. He clearly saw what mahomes did to our very dominant defense and Josh allen shred our solid defense last year.

Man end of April needs to be here already.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
There are literally HUNDREDS of guys who never got much better at these things. Thousands probably. We have three on our team the last few years. We also had several others: Kaepernick, Gabbert, Barkley, Hoyer, Shaun, Troy Smith, David Carr, and on and on. The only one of our QBs the last 15 years that actually got appreciably better at the mental side of the game is Smith -- and he was TERRIBLE at it before then, so it's not like he became elite.

And there's SO MUCH context to every single case...you're throwing it all into one bag, which is silly.

IF you don't have the right coaching staff or roster you're f**ked. IF you're lazy and can't put the time in your f**ked. IF you get thrown out there too quickly and it's overwhelming/you're not prepared...you're f**ked.

I can point out HUNDREDS of guys coming out of college that were regarded as smart and could read coverages that failed all the same.

It is a learned trait, you're not born with the god given ability to read coverages lol. YOU LEARN THAT. Thinking a guy is a finished product regarding X's and O's At 20-22 is absurd.

That's because it's not about being smart or reading coverages. It's about visual instinct.

Agree, It's more a feeling/instinct type of *thinking* -- than a logical sherlock homes deduction kind of thinking. To a certain extent you can weaken it by throwing a rookie into the fire and destroying his confidence, or you can build up that so called *instinct* with some sort of film study and reps, but just like physical strength, each person has their baseline - and you can modify that to a certain extent, but it's not something that you can totally learn, there are limitations even to playbook learning. Just like running the 4.4 - to a certain extent using techniques - you can improve your forty time (losing weight, eating right, certain kinds of weight training) but it will hover around whatever baseline you were born with. I think that's how *instinct* kind of works.

QBs can be taught to read coverages in different ways depending on the coach they work with (high school to college to pros). If it's consistent in the manner that he is taught going from college to pros, the transition is easier and there is a better chance for the QB to improve his processing. If he goes to the NFL and is asked to re-wire his brain, that stunts the development in this area of his game. He may have to start from level 1 and work his way back up.

At one point Air Raid QBs were not having success because once they got to the NFL their reads were different and that contributed to their lack of success. Once NFL coaches started molding the NFL playbook to incorporate more of what their QB was doing in college, we saw more young QBs have early success. I do think there is an inborn aspect to this (reading coverages quickly), but it can be aided by what the QB is asked to do in the NFL and how similar or different it is from what he did in college.

I think instinct and confidence go hand in hand. Asking a QB to do something different that what he was good at in college also could destroy his confidence and instincts. Walsh build up both Joe and Steves confidence with appropriate insertions into actual game type situations to improve their confidence. So it makes sense for NFL coaches to incorporate those college plays into their NFL playbooks.

But 5 Rings is onto what I think it really is, it's more of a feeling (this is how I'm trying to understand it) versus a kind of calculation. 5 Rings calls it some sort of vision or kenesthetic physical perception - and I agree with him, versus something like solving a math equation. I agree, you want to get a rookie QB and build up on what he has versus rebuilding him from the ground up. In Lance's case, there's a good foundation, but no built up structure yet. In Mac and Fields case there's already foundational structure, it just depends on how big a house you want to build on. Rebuilding a rookie - or in the case of Steve Young - took 6 years.

Originally posted by WINiner:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Rathof44:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:
It could be a monster success too. You look at all of the most successful QB's over the past 30 years and skill sets are all OVER the place from top physical traits to embarrassing physical traits to quick processors to slower processors to average skills across the board (master of none) to top in-your-face to quiet leadership skills, etc.

If there was one formula, we wouldn't be having this discussion. And to think YOU know now as a fan when professionals have come nowhere close to being good at these evaluations, is a bit much.

The NFL isn't the same as it was 30 years ago... Rules are different, play calling is different, overall talent and WHO is learning to play QB at a young age is much different then 30 years ago.

The fact that there hasn't been a successful QB with his skill set drafted in the past 5 yrs is proof of that. There are dudes that can play like him that come out every yr, they just don't happen to play on Bama and put up stupid numbers like he did. Like I said if Jones played for Iowa he wouldn't be a top 10 pick, not even close.

Sure it is. You still had cannon arms like Elway with quick-release QB's like Marino and deep ball masters like Moon, insane athletes like Michael Vick, etc.

Today, they're just different names but varying skill sets remain, all over the place.

Name one great pure pocket passer in the NFL under the age of 30?

Mahomes. He only rushes 100-300 yards a year. He's as pure as it gets.

I'd not call Mahomes a pure pocket passer, and I think you'd be far-fetched to find many people who would. Dude scrambles a LOT, he's just really adept at remaining behind the line of scrimmage to deliver the ball. Having said that, when he does run for gains Mahomes can hurt you so the threat is enough to give him advantages pure pockets QB's don't have.

FWIW at Texas Tech Mahomes had 22 TDs rushing TDs his last two years.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
What if Jones turns out to be really good? It's a possibility. As someone who doesn't have a solid preference (leaning Lance again after leaning Fields yesterday -- but I'm happy with all three), I don't really get that. So what if the guy you doesn't like turns out to be really good? Will you come back?

We has fans should expect more than Mac Jones. Period.

Ive watched the 49ers be s**tty or avg for a long time outside of a couple good seasons. I will always watch them, doesn't mean I have to accept an avg system QB. No one should be.

But we don't know what any of these guys will be yet, so we can't know what "more than" means at this point.

Originally posted by Heroism:
Holy s**t, that's it. That's how Shanny is going to sell Mac Jones to the 49ers' fanbase. When the media questions him about him saying Kirk Cousin wasn't his prototype and how similar Mac is to Kirk, Shanny is going to say that Mac Jones doesn't remind him of Kirk Cousins--he reminds him of Joe Montana.

LOL

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
There are literally HUNDREDS of guys who never got much better at these things. Thousands probably. We have three on our team the last few years. We also had several others: Kaepernick, Gabbert, Barkley, Hoyer, Shaun, Troy Smith, David Carr, and on and on. The only one of our QBs the last 15 years that actually got appreciably better at the mental side of the game is Smith -- and he was TERRIBLE at it before then, so it's not like he became elite.

And there's SO MUCH context to every single case...you're throwing it all into one bag, which is silly.

IF you don't have the right coaching staff or roster you're f**ked. IF you're lazy and can't put the time in your f**ked. IF you get thrown out there too quickly and it's overwhelming/you're not prepared...you're f**ked.

I can point out HUNDREDS of guys coming out of college that were regarded as smart and could read coverages that failed all the same.

It is a learned trait, you're not born with the god given ability to read coverages lol. YOU LEARN THAT. Thinking a guy is a finished product regarding X's and O's At 20-22 is absurd.

That's because it's not about being smart or reading coverages. It's about visual instinct.

Agree, It's more a feeling/instinct type of *thinking* -- than a logical sherlock homes deduction kind of thinking. To a certain extent you can weaken it by throwing a rookie into the fire and destroying his confidence, or you can build up that so called *instinct* with some sort of film study and reps, but just like physical strength, each person has their baseline - and you can modify that to a certain extent, but it's not something that you can totally learn, there are limitations even to playbook learning. Just like running the 4.4 - to a certain extent using techniques - you can improve your forty time (losing weight, eating right, certain kinds of weight training) but it will hover around whatever baseline you were born with. I think that's how *instinct* kind of works.

QBs can be taught to read coverages in different ways depending on the coach they work with (high school to college to pros). If it's consistent in the manner that he is taught going from college to pros, the transition is easier and there is a better chance for the QB to improve his processing. If he goes to the NFL and is asked to re-wire his brain, that stunts the development in this area of his game. He may have to start from level 1 and work his way back up.

At one point Air Raid QBs were not having success because once they got to the NFL their reads were different and that contributed to their lack of success. Once NFL coaches started molding the NFL playbook to incorporate more of what their QB was doing in college, we saw more young QBs have early success. I do think there is an inborn aspect to this (reading coverages quickly), but it can be aided by what the QB is asked to do in the NFL and how similar or different it is from what he did in college.

It's not about reading coverages. what is being discussed is a visual instinct.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
There are literally HUNDREDS of guys who never got much better at these things. Thousands probably. We have three on our team the last few years. We also had several others: Kaepernick, Gabbert, Barkley, Hoyer, Shaun, Troy Smith, David Carr, and on and on. The only one of our QBs the last 15 years that actually got appreciably better at the mental side of the game is Smith -- and he was TERRIBLE at it before then, so it's not like he became elite.

And there's SO MUCH context to every single case...you're throwing it all into one bag, which is silly.

IF you don't have the right coaching staff or roster you're f**ked. IF you're lazy and can't put the time in your f**ked. IF you get thrown out there too quickly and it's overwhelming/you're not prepared...you're f**ked.

I can point out HUNDREDS of guys coming out of college that were regarded as smart and could read coverages that failed all the same.

It is a learned trait, you're not born with the god given ability to read coverages lol. YOU LEARN THAT. Thinking a guy is a finished product regarding X's and O's At 20-22 is absurd.

That's because it's not about being smart or reading coverages. It's about visual instinct.

Agree, It's more a feeling/instinct type of *thinking* -- than a logical sherlock homes deduction kind of thinking. To a certain extent you can weaken it by throwing a rookie into the fire and destroying his confidence, or you can build up that so called *instinct* with some sort of film study and reps, but just like physical strength, each person has their baseline - and you can modify that to a certain extent, but it's not something that you can totally learn, there are limitations even to playbook learning. Just like running the 4.4 - to a certain extent using techniques - you can improve your forty time (losing weight, eating right, certain kinds of weight training) but it will hover around whatever baseline you were born with. I think that's how *instinct* kind of works.

QBs can be taught to read coverages in different ways depending on the coach they work with (high school to college to pros). If it's consistent in the manner that he is taught going from college to pros, the transition is easier and there is a better chance for the QB to improve his processing. If he goes to the NFL and is asked to re-wire his brain, that stunts the development in this area of his game. He may have to start from level 1 and work his way back up.

At one point Air Raid QBs were not having success because once they got to the NFL their reads were different and that contributed to their lack of success. Once NFL coaches started molding the NFL playbook to incorporate more of what their QB was doing in college, we saw more young QBs have early success. I do think there is an inborn aspect to this (reading coverages quickly), but it can be aided by what the QB is asked to do in the NFL and how similar or different it is from what he did in college.

I think instinct and confidence go hand in hand. Asking a QB to do something different that what he was good at in college also could destroy his confidence and instincts. Walsh build up both Joe and Steves confidence with appropriate insertions into actual game type situations to improve their confidence. So it makes sense for NFL coaches to incorporate those college plays into their NFL playbooks.

But 5 Rings is onto what I think it really is, it's more of a feeling (this is how I'm trying to understand it) versus a kind of calculation. 5 Rings calls it some sort of vision or kenesthetic physical perception - and I agree with him, versus something like solving a math equation. I agree, you want to get a rookie QB and build up on what he has versus rebuilding him from the ground up. In Lance's case, there's a good foundation, but no built up structure yet. In Mac and Fields case there's already foundational structure, it just depends on how big a house you want to build on. Rebuilding a rookie - or in the case of Steve Young - took 6 years.

What a good phrase. Yeah, that's a pretty good description. It's intuition, instinct. Some guys have a special ability with this; most don't. Some can improve that, but again, most don't do so very much. What they DO improve upon is reading defenses and learning the playbook, and that does go along way.

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
But we don't know what any of these guys will be yet, so we can't know what "more than" means at this point.

List the top 10 QBs under 30 and you won't see any Mac Jones types. So the only hope you have is he becomes Tom Brady and if you are trading to #3 you don't do that for "well he can be Tom Brady" because he won't be Tom Brady.

Originally posted by Heroism:

Originally posted by Heroism:
Holy s**t, that's it. That's how Shanny is going to sell Mac Jones to the 49ers' fanbase. When the media questions him about him saying Kirk Cousin wasn't his prototype and how similar Mac is to Kirk, Shanny is going to say that Mac Jones doesn't remind him of Kirk Cousins--he reminds him of Joe Montana.

LOL

For what it's worth, Jim Mora Jr. says he has heard people around the league compare Mac Jones to Joe Montana.

— Grant Cohn (@grantcohn) April 2, 2021

The only way he can sell it is by winning with him.

But I would bet dollars to pesos that everyone in that building wants Trey Lance except Kyle Shanahan, who wants Mac Jones.

Originally posted by Heroism:
LOL

For what it's worth, Jim Mora Jr. says he has heard people around the league compare Mac Jones to Joe Montana.

— Grant Cohn (@grantcohn) April 2, 2021

Who's Joe Montana?

Originally posted by Heroism:

Originally posted by Heroism:
Holy s**t, that's it. That's how Shanny is going to sell Mac Jones to the 49ers' fanbase. When the media questions him about him saying Kirk Cousin wasn't his prototype and how similar Mac is to Kirk, Shanny is going to say that Mac Jones doesn't remind him of Kirk Cousins--he reminds him of Joe Montana.

LOL

For what it's worth, Jim Mora Jr. says he has heard people around the league compare Mac Jones to Joe Montana.

— Grant Cohn (@grantcohn) April 2, 2021

NOW, we've jumped the f**king shark. Geezus

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
The only way he can sell it is by winning with him.

But I would bet dollars to pesos that everyone in that building wants Trey Lance except Kyle Shanahan, who wants Mac Jones.

Yes, I believe you are right, and Shanahan will ultimately get who he wants because he runs this ship.

Originally posted by AceDuce49:
Who's Joe Montana?

Guinness spokesman